Woman on the altar

[JReducation]

Br. Jay,
You bring up something here that I find very interesting.
I was once a supporter of the ordination of women, and had a wonderful spiritual director at the time who asked me some very good questions that finally brought me to this realization.
That said, can you recommend and books/authors that I could read that will expand on this a little more.

Thanks!

Peace be with you!

Send me a PM to remind me to find a good author on the ordination of women. I can’t think of one off the top of my head. We learned this as principles that you string together, sort of like connecting the dots.

God did this.

Jesus was this.

The Fathers of the Church said this.

Therefore, the answer to this question is this.

Let me ask around. I promise.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

 

[floresco]

I recommend The Catholic Priesthood and Women: A Guide to the Teaching of the Church by Sister Sara Butler. Here is the Amazon book description:

In his letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, Pope John Paul II stated: “Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, . . .I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” With that declaration, the question of women’s priestly ordination in the Catholic Church was effectively closed. While the Church’s position is clear, many priests, religious, seminarians, and lay ministers search for a way to answer questions regarding the Church’s teaching. In The Catholic Priesthood and Women: A Guide to the Teaching of the Church, Sister Sara Butler attempts to answer those questions through a close examination of the Church’s teaching on the ordination of women to the priesthood. In response to a call for a greater articulation of the Church’s position, Sister Butler seeks to both clarify and defend the Church’s teaching as well as explore why so many have struggled to accept it. The Catholic Priesthood and Women: A Guide to the Teaching of the Church successfully explores the complex and fundamental questions surrounding the ordination of women to the priesthood for anyone interested in a deep examination of this issue.

Here is one of her essays online, covering similar material: wf-f.org/04-3-Ordination.html

 

[Joannm]

I recommend The Catholic Priesthood and Women: A Guide to the Teaching of the Church by Sister Sara Butler. Here is the Amazon book description:

Here is one of her essays online, covering similar material: wf-f.org/04-3-Ordination.html

What is interesting still is that Sr. Sara was once very much in favor of women priests until she began to study and research about it.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I did not think that this question would give rise to so many posts.
Women as priests no.
Women at the altar yes, why not.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

I’ll tell you why.

Because they’re distracting and unnecessary. Same as men in civilian clothes being up there, but with added distraction of them being women, who, in the past, weren’t up there in any form.

It’s come to something when The Holy Sacrifice Of The Mass is punctuated by civilians in their street clothes reading from the lectern, in reedy voices while the priest sits and listens. And lets not forget the distribution of Communion.

Bonkers.

Makes me sad, really, that, because of a misreading of a document, the whole Church thinks it’s got to let lay people into the Holy Of Holies. I think it shows we’ve lost a sense of the sacred, big time.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I recommend The Catholic Priesthood and Women: A Guide to the Teaching of the Church by Sister Sara Butler. Here is the Amazon book description:

Here is one of her essays online, covering similar material: wf-f.org/04-3-Ordination.html

Thanks for this. I am looking forward to reading it when I get home tonight!

 

[Melchior_1]

Same as men in civilian clothes being up there

In some cases the civilian clothes are worn at all time, such as in orders here there is a uniformity. They don’t even call priests “Father”. Do they lack respect for the sacred due to having people not wearing specific garments?

 

[Diana_Catherine]

In some cases the civilian clothes are worn at all time, such as in orders here there is a uniformity. They don’t even call priests “Father”. Do they lack respect for the sacred due to having people not wearing specific garments?

I heard Father Pacwa tell someone once who was questioning why the priests wear what they wear, is not to bring notice to the priest but to take away our noticing the priest. He said the garments are to be a sign of humility. The garments are meant to cover the priest so we remembering it is Jesus who is giving us the sacrifice. The #3 Baltimore catechism has a great illustration in it showing how we see the priest but our thoughts should be of Jesus at the altar as the priest acts in his place.

When those in civilian clothes are up at the altar it doesn’t work the same. It makes it harder to see Jesus. Not that we aren’t to see Jesus in everyone, yes we are but their role is not the same as the priests. There is a reason for the specific garments and since people are usually moved by their senses, they can lose respect for the sacred when it is not seen.

 

[Melchior_1]

I heard Father Pacwa tell someone once who was questioning why the priests wear what they wear, is not to bring notice to the priest but to take away our noticing the priest. He said the garments are to be a sign of humility. The garments are meant to cover the priest so we remembering it is Jesus who is giving us the sacrifice. The #3 Baltimore catechism has a great illustration in it showing how we see the priest but our thoughts should be of Jesus at the altar as the priest acts in his place.

When those in civilian clothes are up at the altar it doesn’t work the same. It makes it harder to see Jesus. Not that we aren’t to see Jesus in everyone, yes we are but their role is not the same as the priests. There is a reason for the specific garments and since people are usually moved by their senses, they can lose respect for the sacred when it is not seen.

That doesn’t answer my question though; in communities where the civilian clothes are worn all of the time, do they lack respect?

 

[SonCatcher]

In the area I am based is no tridentine mass so I go to a NO mass.
It is used in this parish that after the priest finished his sermon, some men and women come to the altar to read some short prayers. They often ask me to do this however I refused becausr I was not sure if this is Ok for a woman. What are your thoughts about this?

Do you mean the altar, the table where the priest consecrates the Eucharist or the ambo (or another lectern) such as where the lector reads the readings (and happens to be in the vast open area called the “altar”)?

The prayers of the faithful should be read at the ambo, lectern or even an open place (free-standing mic). They should not be read from the altar.

It is perfectly okay for a woman to read the prayers of the faithful.

 

[TimothyH]

Do those who object to the role of women in the liturgy extend that same objection to functions in and around the sanctuary and the priest outside of the ligurgy, specifically to the duties of sacristan?

I don’t see too many male sacristans, setting up the Roman Missal and Lectionary, lighting candles and replacing them as needed, filling the ciboria with hosts.

I think it is one of the most sacred liturgical ministries outside of the prieshood. The reason I say this is because the sacristan often has to open the tabernacle and look inside the ciboria to see how many hosts are consecrated. Sacristans also have to move Jesus from the tabernacle in the main Church to the chapel and have to handle the sacred vessels. Sure, it is outside of Mass, but I tremble sometimes when I have to go into the tabernacle.

Just curious, that’s all, as to how many men would feel comfortable setting up for mass and cleaning up afterward, dusting and cleaning up there if the Church suddenly said that females were not to enter the sanctuary ever.

-Tim-

 

[JReducation]

That doesn’t answer my question though; in communities where the civilian clothes are worn all of the time, do they lack respect?

Let me take a crack at your question from the perspective of a religious who is in a community where everyone wears the same habit and everyone is called Brother except the superior who is always Father. We’re not the only community like this. So are the Cistercians and several Franciscan communities. In our case it’s interesting, because the superior is not a priest, but he has three of them under him and they may never be called Father, nor do they wear distinctive clothing. Everyone wears the habit. You can see our brother-priests when they celebrate mass or the other sacraments, then they disappear back into the crowd of brothers and become anonymous. However, that does not mean that we have less respect for them or less love for them.

The way that we look at our brother-priests is as a brother who is called by God to serve his people through priestly ministry. That ministry is sacred, because it was instituted by Christ, not by man.

One would ask, why keep them anonymous?

Because the entire Franciscan and Benedictine families realized that a great injustice had been done to our religious communities after Vatican I. The the Church started to treat our ordained members as if they were diocesan priests and our non-ordained brothers as if they were servants. This was not the vision of the founders. Their vision was a brotherhood of equals headed by a Father who nurtures, protects and governs the community.

It is important to understand than being equal does not define identity. We are equal. We have the same rights and the same duites. But there is more to us than rights and duties, there is a place in God’s plan. That place gives us our identity. For some men, their place is the priesthood and for others is the care of the poor, teaching, preaching, etc.

Identity embraces the whole person, his state in life and his place in God’s plan of salvation. We don’t respect our brother-priests more than we respect our brother-cook. They are equal in dignity, rights and duties as consecrated men. They deserve equal respect, because each has an identity that has been given to him by God. All of God’s gifts are precious. We certainly respect the sacredness of the priesthood. But we don’t need to look different to do that.

In our case, most of the time the layman thinks his talking to a priest, because he sees a habit or a Roman Collar or at the other extreme, he thinks he’s talking to monk of some kind, because everyone is wearing the same habit and cowl. But it’s not necessary to distinguish ourselves either by dress or by title until the appropriate moment, that would be the celebration of the sacraments.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Do those who object to the role of women in the liturgy extend that same objection to functions in and around the sanctuary and the priest outside of the ligurgy, specifically to the duties of sacristan?

I don’t see too many male sacristans, setting up the Roman Missal and Lectionary, lighting candles and replacing them as needed, filling the ciboria with hosts.

I think it is one of the most sacred liturgical ministries outside of the prieshood. The reason I say this is because the sacristan often has to open the tabernacle and look inside the ciboria to see how many hosts are consecrated. Sacristans also have to move Jesus from the tabernacle in the main Church to the chapel and have to handle the sacred vessels. Sure, it is outside of Mass, but I tremble sometimes when I have to go into the tabernacle.

Just curious, that’s all, as to how many men would feel comfortable setting up for mass and cleaning up afterward, dusting and cleaning up there if the Church suddenly said that females were not to enter the sanctuary ever.

-Tim-

Whoah! If the sacristan is not a deacon, the law prohibits that he open the tabernacle or move the Blessed Sacrament at all. Opening and closing the tabernacle is reserved for the ordained.

In the case of necessity where an EMHC has to take the Eucharist to the sick, the pastor can grant him or her permission to open the tabernacle and get a consecrated host; but this may never be a matter of routine. Hence the term Extraordinary.

The Sacristan is the keeper of the sacristy (the sacred vessels and books).

Even in religious houses of men, the ordained brothers open and close the tabernacle. The other brothers may only do so to take communion to the sick. That’s not a daily situation.

This has nothing to do with gender. It has to do with identity. The identity of the deacon, priest and bishop carries with it certain duties and rights.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PhilOSophia]

In some cases the civilian clothes are worn at all time, such as in orders here there is a uniformity. They don’t even call priests “Father”. Do they lack respect for the sacred due to having people not wearing specific garments?

I don’t know what you’re talking about, here.

Secular clothes, worn by laypeople, in the sacred area, in a sacred rite, when they’re taking a priestly role and reading from the pulpit or distributing Communion, are jarring.

If you want to convey to the audience that this is not a mundane event, it’s exactly what you shouldn’t do.

I realised this is folly when I happened to walk into a church during Mass recently and saw a nervous woman, in plain clothes, reading from the pulpit while a priest sat down and listened to her.

The english have a phrase: ‘Buggins Turn’. That’s what it looks like. Like, “Ah, gwan, let her have a go …” It’s just odd.

 

[ProVobis]

Just curious, that’s all, as to how many men would feel comfortable setting up for mass and cleaning up afterward, dusting and cleaning up there if the Church suddenly said that females were not to enter the sanctuary ever.

In many EF/OF parishes, males typically set up the altar for the EF and then back again for the OF. In EF-only parishes you may find women cleaning up around the altar but normally the congregation doesn’t see them.

But let’s turn things around a bit. Why do you see very few women taking up collections? I don’t see why this should be a male-only duty.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t know what you’re talking about, here.

Secular clothes, worn by laypeople, in the sacred area, in a sacred rite, when they’re taking a priestly role and reading from the pulpit or distributing Communion, are jarring.

If you want to convey to the audience that this is not a mundane event, it’s exactly what you shouldn’t do.

I realised this is folly when I happened to walk into a church during Mass recently and saw a nervous woman, in plain clothes, reading from the pulpit while a priest sat down and listened to her.

The english have a phrase: ‘Buggins Turn’. That’s what it looks like. Like, “Ah, gwan, let her have a go …” It’s just odd.

Which reading was she doing? Anyone can read either of the first two readings. The priest is not supposed to read them.

Distributing Holy Communion is not a priest’s role. In the Latin Church the canon is very clear that the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are the deacon, priest and bishop. We have a hangup with it having to be a priest who distributes Holy Communion and forget what the canon says.

There is another canon that says that when the numbers of communicants are high enough to cause the mass to be extended, the presider may make use of EMHC.

What would be wrong would be if there are ordained men on the altar and the EMHC distributes while the deacon sits it out.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

Which reading was she doing? Anyone can read either of the first two readings. The priest is not supposed to read them.

Distributing Holy Communion is not a priest’s role. In the Latin Church the canon is very clear that the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are the deacon, priest and bishop. We have a hangup with it having to be a priest who distributes Holy Communion and forget what the canon says.

There is another canon that says that when the numbers of communicants are high enough to cause the mass to be extended, the presider may make use of EMHC.

What would be wrong would be if there are ordained men on the altar and the EMHC distributes while the deacon sits it out.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

But a deacon is an ordained person,right?

 

[Melchior_1]

I don’t know what you’re talking about, here.

Refer; this post from Brother JR (basically, some folks wear their habits 24/7, regardless of functions. Do they lose sight of the sacred?)

Let me take a crack at your question from the perspective of a religious who is in a community where everyone wears the same habit and everyone is called Brother except the superior who is always Father. We’re not the only community like this. So are the Cistercians and several Franciscan communities. In our case it’s interesting, because the superior is not a priest, but he has three of them under him and they may never be called Father, nor do they wear distinctive clothing. Everyone wears the habit. You can see our brother-priests when they celebrate mass or the other sacraments, then they disappear back into the crowd of brothers and become anonymous. However, that does not mean that we have less respect for them or less love for them.

The way that we look at our brother-priests is as a brother who is called by God to serve his people through priestly ministry. That ministry is sacred, because it was instituted by Christ, not by man.

One would ask, why keep them anonymous?

Because the entire Franciscan and Benedictine families realized that a great injustice had been done to our religious communities after Vatican I. The the Church started to treat our ordained members as if they were diocesan priests and our non-ordained brothers as if they were servants. This was not the vision of the founders. Their vision was a brotherhood of equals headed by a Father who nurtures, protects and governs the community.

It is important to understand than being equal does not define identity. We are equal. We have the same rights and the same duites. But there is more to us than rights and duties, there is a place in God’s plan. That place gives us our identity. For some men, their place is the priesthood and for others is the care of the poor, teaching, preaching, etc.

Identity embraces the whole person, his state in life and his place in God’s plan of salvation. We don’t respect our brother-priests more than we respect our brother-cook. They are equal in dignity, rights and duties as consecrated men. They deserve equal respect, because each has an identity that has been given to him by God. All of God’s gifts are precious. We certainly respect the sacredness of the priesthood. But we don’t need to look different to do that.

In our case, most of the time the layman thinks his talking to a priest, because he sees a habit or a Roman Collar or at the other extreme, he thinks he’s talking to monk of some kind, because everyone is wearing the same habit and cowl. But it’s not necessary to distinguish ourselves either by dress or by title until the appropriate moment, that would be the celebration of the sacraments.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

But a deacon is an ordained person,right?

Yes. A deacon is as much a clergyman as is a priest and a bishop. He is not a member of the laity and can never return to the laity. He will be a deacon forever.

Think of it this way. The sacrament is called Holy Orders, not because it has anything to do with religious orders. Order, in this case comes from the word Ordain.

These are the three orders in the Sacrament of Holy Orders, from bottom to top.

First Order: Deacon

Second Order: Priest (you don’t lose your diaconate)

Third Order: Bishop (you’re still a priest and a deacon)

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Which reading was she doing? Anyone can read either of the first two readings. The priest is not supposed to read them.

Distributing Holy Communion is not a priest’s role. In the Latin Church the canon is very clear that the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are the deacon, priest and bishop. We have a hangup with it having to be a priest who distributes Holy Communion and forget what the canon says.

There is another canon that says that when the numbers of communicants are high enough to cause the mass to be extended, the presider may make use of EMHC.

What would be wrong would be if there are ordained men on the altar and the EMHC distributes while the deacon sits it out.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Is it actually in the rubrics of the OF that a layman must do these readings? Is it a stated norm that has to be followed?
Likewise, are EMHCs mandatory? I don’t think they are. They really detract from an atmosphere of sanctity.

Modern masses look more like a recital. It really gives the wrong idea about what’s going on.