Woman on the altar

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šŸ‘šŸ‘šŸ‘
Enough said… people who don’t wanna give up their emotion and listen to the church… well, they have to get used to the way things are…
Interestlingly, this is the exact opposite conclusion that Brother JR’s response leads us to. Under his method, the Church waits 300 years to see what the fruit of the change will be. Nobody gets used to anything until at least 2300. At that time, the officials review the collective experience of the previous 3 centuries to determine whether the change was good or bad. But if no one comments, there will be no record for them to review.
 
I’d like you to read the letters of Paul to the congregation in Corinth and then come back and tell me that lay people should have no role in the life of the gathered assembly… 😦
I started here: 1 Corinthians 14:34; Timothy 2:11.

Then I looked to see if there is a tradition of lay men and women reading the epistles or leading the prayers at mass in either the east or west. There is not.

So, practice appears consistent with scripture, as one would expect.

You also mentioned unchaste priests, the advice to become a priestess, and priests who don’t read well compared to lay people. Because I don’t know anything about those things, I cannot respond.
 
You also mentioned unchaste priests, the advice to become a priestess, and priests who don’t read well compared to lay people. Because I don’t know anything about those things, I cannot respond.
St. Peter, with his accent from Galilee, was not a great public speaker. According to GraceDK, Mary Magdalene might have been a better speaker for the cause…

My, how far we’ve fallen into cults of personality.
 
Actually, nothing he said gives me that impression.

What I read is the issue isn’t women, it’s laywomen without proper understanding and training.
The poster said that women religious had better formation. I responded that if that’s the problem then just offer laywomen the same formation.
I also read a bunch of religious stuff that has nothing to do with what occurs daily in parishes around the US.
Actually it does, because it has shaped the Church through history.
Br. JR, are you in the US? Care to comment on the liberalization of the American arm of the RCC? Any comment on men and boys being pushed from positions and the priests just let it happen?
Yes I am in the US and I am an American. The Church in the US is no more liberal than the Church in any other country. Don’t belief that for an instance. We’re probably much more restrained than most of Europe.

Men and boys have not been pushed from positions in the Church or on the altar. We opened the door for women to participate in anything that is not strictly limited to men. The truth is that women have always outnumbered men in the Catholic Church. It was not as obvious before, because we had a male dominated sanctuary.

If you added up the number of sisters and nuns on one hand and the number of priests and brothers on the other, even today, the women outnumber the men 5 to 1. The proportions are true among the laity. Now that we have roles for the laity in the the liturgy and other areas of Church life, you on the lay side, are seeing what we on the religious and clerical side, have been seeing for centuries, more women than men. I believe that men just naturally shy away from being overtly involved in religion, not that they’re less religious, just not as visible.
Spring time? Hazy shade of winter more like it.
One can take a very negative view of it or one can thank God and the many women who have stepped up to the plate to serve us. I for one thank God for the women in the Church. I work in an apostolate that is dominated by women by 10 to 1. If we did not have them, our ministry would have to shut down. In pro-life ministry, which is what my community does, there are 10 women to every 1 brother.

In our parish there are three women to every one man. The parish could not run without them. With them, we have 36 ministries, including a religious education program for 600 kids and 400 HS teens, a food pantry, a hospital ministry to a 700 bed hospital, three nursing homes and two assisted living communities, 7 masses every Sunday with 800 people at each mass and two priests hearing confessions on Saturday.

The problem is that we have 11 brothers and only 2 are priests. The Franciscan movement is going back to the 13th century when we ordained very few men. We’re trying to do what St. Francis commanded us to do, to bring the cloister to the secular laity and involve the secular laity in the work of the Church without bringing the secular into the cloister. Not an easy assignment. This was actually St. Clare’s idea. Francis always did what she suggested. 🤷

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF šŸ™‚
 
Br JR,
Let me take a step back and collect myself.

Let these be understood:
  1. I have no problem, whatsoever, with women in ministerial roles. BUT, one must carefully define that, and provide solid boundaries.
  2. I have a great love for the religious. I do not have a great love for religious thrusting their practices into the secular. Not in the least, at all. Ever. IF, and ONLY if, the secular take on a religious practice, or take on a religious take on a practice, fine. I won’t be participating in it in all likelihood. I have a choice in that, do I not?
  3. The very, absolutely last thing the Church needs to do in the West is what it is doing. The feminized culture, this Amazon woman mentality, is destroying the West.
  4. I’m confused on your timeline. How long have you been Catholic from Judaism? Seems like you have fit a lot in from the timeline I could figure based on past posts I looked through. Please don’t take offense at my question, I’m either confused on your timeline, or you’ve fast-tracked through some heavy academic work, been all over the world, etc. Perhaps I’m just confused all around, it’s been known to happen.
 
Interestlingly, this is the exact opposite conclusion that Brother JR’s response leads us to. Under his method, the Church waits 300 years to see what the fruit of the change will be. Nobody gets used to anything until at least 2300. At that time, the officials review the collective experience of the previous 3 centuries to determine whether the change was good or bad. But if no one comments, there will be no record for them to review.
Actually, it’s not a method, it’s the principle of doctrinal development, applied to other areas. St. Bonaventure is trying to explain to his reader that the best way to know if something is from the Holy Spirit is if the Church allows it, because the Church cannot allow anything contrary to revealed Truth. He says, otherwise, you have to wait at least 300 years to make a historical assessment of its value by looking at its fruits.

He’s not endorsing the 300 year wait. He’s doing just the opposite. He’s saying that throughout history, the Church has allowed things to expand, in this case, to expand from the cloister into the secular world and that as long as it expands with the consent of the Church, then it cannot be contrary to revealed truth. He places the emphasis on ā€œthe Church allowsā€. If the Church did not allow, we would have to wait centuries to know whether we were right or not.

What I’m saying is that if we look at what many people find bothersome, these are things that come from the cloister. They’re not exactly new. A better word would be that they are foreign to the average Catholic layman. However, it’s an expansion that the Church has allowed and probably for good reason. Using Bonaventure, Newman and Benedict XVI, it is better to have the Church allow than to wait 300 years to see if we got it right. If the Church allows, we know that we’re not in conflict with Revelation. We may still have to keep tweaking at it until we get it down the way that the Church envisions it. That’s not out of the ordinary.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF šŸ™‚
 
Br JR,
Let me take a step back and collect myself.

Let these be understood:
  1. I have no problem, whatsoever, with women in ministerial roles. BUT, one must carefully define that, and provide solid boundaries.
Agreed
  1. I have a great love for the religious. I do not have a great love for religious thrusting their practices into the secular. Not in the least, at all. Ever. IF, and ONLY if, the secular take on a religious practice, or take on a religious take on a practice, fine. I won’t be participating in it in all likelihood. I have a choice in that, do I not?
It’s not being thrust. I believe it’s expanding beyond the borders of the cloister. This is not new. This happens every couple of centuries.
  1. The very, absolutely last thing the Church needs to do in the West is what it is doing. The feminized culture, this Amazon woman mentality, is destroying the West.
There have always been more women active in the Church than men. It’s more visible now than it was in the past, because laity was not active at all. The proportion of laywomen and laymen is the exact same as women religious and male religious.
  1. I’m confused on your timeline. How long have you been Catholic from Judaism? Seems like you have fit a lot in from the timeline I could figure based on past posts I looked through. Please don’t take offense at my question, I’m either confused on your timeline, or you’ve fast-tracked through some heavy academic work, been all over the world, etc. Perhaps I’m just confused all around, it’s been known to happen.
You’re probably thinking me younger than I am. I’ve been Catholic for 44 years this Easter, give or take a few weeks. Yes, I have been on whirlwind tour of universities and other interesting places.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF šŸ™‚
 
St. Bonaventure is trying to explain to his reader that the best way to know if something is from the Holy Spirit is if the Church allows it, because the Church cannot allow anything contrary to revealed Truth. He says, otherwise, you have to wait at least 300 years to make a historical assessment of its value by looking at its fruits.
This seems to say in essence that Bonaventure says that the Church never makes a mistake. There are problems with that kind of approach.
 
This seems to say in essence that Bonaventure says that the Church never makes a mistake. There are problems with that kind of approach.
What he is saying is that the Church cannot err against Truth. The mechanics about how the Church goes in doing things can certainly be faulty, but the doctrine behind it can never be faulty.

The expansion of women on the altar from the convent to the local parish may have happened without proper preparation. Thus the mechanics was faulty. But the concept is not, because it’s not contrary to Truth. The Church cannot err on Truth. She can err on process, but not on the essence.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF šŸ™‚

PS. Don’t poke Bonaventure, Pope Benedict likes him more than he likes Aquinas. šŸ˜‰
 
What about all the priests who don’t live in chastity? or what about the nuns and priests I have met who tried to talk me into becoming a priestess?
Actually today not only religious are PERMITTED to read, but also lay men and women… and some do a better job than even the priest could.

Thank God, your sentiments do not guide the Church.
I am very saddened to read your response. Of course there are many women who do not live in chastity. There is human in all of us and that brings the human element in to the Church and there will always be those who stray and sin. Sin is in all of us. That doesn’t make it right. That doesn’t mean we can compare ourselves to them and say well look how bad they are. I am not as bad as so and so and so I can do it better. We need to encourage them to be what God has called them to be, pray for them to be what God calls them to be.

You are right. As of now, laity are permitted to read and maybe you could pick someone out of the parish that reads better than the priest but that doesn’t matter. The priest at our parish stutters but I still love to hear him read and guide us in the scriptures. He is our priest and that is his calling. Whether or not someone does a better job than a priest has no bearing on each persons role at Mass.

And if you are having priests and nuns asking you to become a priestess, you need to be reminding them that Holy Mother Church does not allow priestesses and find priests and nuns who can guide you correctly about Holy Mother Church and not encourage you in the wrong direction. Women being encouraged to be or desiring to be priestesses is a very good reason why there are those who don’t believe it is good for women to be at the altar .
  • I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.* Pope John Paul II ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
 
I once went to a few Masss where the priest was really having an issue with the Latin. I don’t know why. He was a fill-in for the regular priest, though fully trained in the EF.

I did, at the beginning of his stuttering and very monotone voice (from what I could tell, he seemed nervous), think, ā€œgee, 7 years plus experience and you can’t pronounce this?ā€ and then I caught myself.

I prayed for that man, and every time he stuttered, I hoped that the embarrassment I felt was his placed on me,so that he would not stutter and fail because of stuttering and failing embarrassing him. I would never want a priest to question his ministry because he wasn’t eloquent. Even Moses was a poor speaker. So was St. Peter in many ways, from what I know/understand.

I’d rather hear a priest stutter and fail to be all poetic than have some eloquent woman, or even man, reading where there is no need.

Such an excuse, ā€œbetter readersā€, is insulting to the very reason for the Mass to begin with. It’s worship, not a graded performance.
 
I personally would not feel comfortable doing this.

Are we obligated to agree with such things, or are they indults like CITH, that are optional and didn’t come from VII (but afterwards)?
We are obligated to agree that the Church is the final authority on the Liturgy. Beyond that, you can have your personal preference about many things that are part of that liturgy.

The Prayers of the Faithful are a regular part of the Order of the Mass universal in the Ordinary Form. They are not included by indult nor are they optional. Whether a person wants to accept an invitation to lead them is entirely optional.
 
I once went to a few Masss where the priest was really having an issue with the Latin. I don’t know why. He was a fill-in for the regular priest, though fully trained in the EF.

I did, at the beginning of his stuttering and very monotone voice (from what I could tell, he seemed nervous), think, ā€œgee, 7 years plus experience and you can’t pronounce this?ā€ and then I caught myself.

I prayed for that man, and every time he stuttered, I hoped that the embarrassment I felt was his placed on me,so that he would not stutter and fail because of stuttering and failing embarrassing him. I would never want a priest to question his ministry because he wasn’t eloquent. Even Moses was a poor speaker. So was St. Peter in many ways, from what I know/understand.

I’d rather hear a priest stutter and fail to be all poetic than have some eloquent woman, or even man, reading where there is no need.

Such an excuse, ā€œbetter readersā€, is insulting to the very reason for the Mass to begin with. It’s worship, not a graded performance.
šŸ‘
 
Males are priests to atone for the ā€œSin of Adam,ā€ not the ā€œSin of Adam & Eve.ā€ Altar boys culturally have served as priest-apprentices, so hence were males. Now I’m not sure were destroying confusion or creating it. Men only can atone for the Sin of Adam. If you’ve got that, you’ve got it all.
 
What he is saying is that the Church cannot err against Truth. The mechanics about how the Church goes in doing things can certainly be faulty, but the doctrine behind it can never be faulty.
Do not people suffer from fault, not from the reason for fault?
 
Hi Kathryn Ann

I met a woman recently (a woman I liked straight away) but she asked me ā€œWhat do you think of women becoming priests?ā€ I replied the pope is against it, to which she added ā€œThe pope is only one manā€ Now I don’t think Our Lady would have ever said that. Anyway, I finished by saying he’s not just one man, he’s the pope, the head of the Church.

2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry
Yes, and a succession of Popes has allowed women to speak in the Church, and to teach, for quite some time now. Women are not to be priests by the rules of these same Holy Fathers who interpret and guide our traditions. Hierarchy need not be a fearful thing. The woman to whom you spoke did not understand this. I do, as does Our Lady, and rejoice in it. Blessings on your Day.:angel1:
Kathryn Ann
 
You’re both in the same area. My response is to take a close look into the writings of St. Bonaventure, Bl. John Newman and Pope Benedict XVI on the subject of Theology of History.

What we find is that good things expand at different times in history, either because of necessity or because the Church wishes them to expand. We will know if the expansion is prompted by the Holy Spirit in one of two ways, says St. Bonaventure. The first is more obvious he says. Whatever the Church allows, is allowed by the Holy Spirit. The second is less obvious, the fruits produced over time. One has to allow time to pass. Bonaventure, in his Theology of History points out that time is not just a few years. He talks about centuries. You cannot test the fruit of something in less than 300 years, he says. That’s why he says that the approval of the Church is the best and surest way, because it does not require such a long wait.

As to poor cetechesis, that should never be an excuse not to expand something that is good. In that case, the problem is not the practice, but that lack of proper education. You don’t throw out the practice, you correct the problem. Provide the education.

Finally, that which is part of religious life should never be considered foreign to the rest of the Church. Religious life exists for several reasons.

The most important is the salvation of the religious themselves.

The second reason is that it is essential to the life of the Church. The Church is incomplete without religious sisters, nuns and religious brothers. This has been taught by the Church for centuries. It is a complete vocation in itself and serves as the spiritual backbone of the Church. Through the religious the Church remains in constant prayer, penance and good works.

The third is that the laity is to look to the religious life to learn about the perfection of charity. It must never consider the religious man or woman as separated from the world. That was never the intent. The religious leaves what is worldly, meaning that which leads away from Christ, but he or she remains very much a part of the Church in the world. The religious house is a school for all Catholics, even when there are some religious who are problem children. We can even learn from them.

Having said all that, there is one thing that is very important here. When you bring something from the cloister into the parish, you need to teach it well. This is not always the case. I have seen it with the Liturgy of the Hours. I have seen parishes start it one or two evenings a week, but never instructed the laity. Most laymen do not know that the Divine Office is as much liturgy as the is the mass.

Most laymen know little or nothing about the LOTH, just look at how many silly questions people ask about the breviary on CAF. Everyone wants the ā€œtraditionalā€ breviary. In 1962, there were 27 versions of the breviary. Which one is traditional? 🤷 The most common one was the Roman Breviary, simply because it was used by diocesan priests, who outnumber brothers and regular priests.

But when you bring these things into a parish and you don’t teach it, you don’t get the desired results. The same has happened with women reading at mass or serving as EMHC or women administering parishes. People do not know that this has been done for centuries and have not been taught how to do it well.

I live in a diocese where the chancellor is a woman. She’s a religious. She knows how to run a diocese and does very well. There is not a single priest or brother in the diocese who can do the job as well as she does. If it were assigned to a laywoman, I’m not so sure that it would be the same. Laywomen are not less intelligent than women religious. It’s just the fact that laywomen do not have the exposure to certain things that women religious have. You can’t just throw a laywoman into a role without the proper formation. I will agree with that.

If the problem is formation, let’s fix the problem, not tell the ladies to shut up and sit down.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF šŸ™‚
Amen, Br. JR. OSF, a wonderful explanation.
Kathryn Ann
 
… a hospital ministry to a 700 bed hospital, three nursing homes and two assisted living communities,
I’ve visited a few nursing homes, a couple where there wasn’t a single male patient. When he was advised to go to a nursing home, my dad begged not to go. I didn’t blame him. And at his hospital for his last four weeks, there wasn’t a single male nurse. Very few male doctors as well.
 
Some women are very frivolous on the altar and elsewhere within the Church too. This is not a male versus female thing, it’s just that I don’t like all the distractions within the Church in recent times, it was so much better when only the priest was there. As things stand, I think there should be some kind of dress code for all (male and female) servers upon the altar, and silence should be maintained at all times. I have witnessed some appalling behaviour recently though not always from women.

2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry
I’m a woman and I agree.
 
Males are priests to atone for the ā€œSin of Adam,ā€ not the ā€œSin of Adam & Eve.ā€ Altar boys culturally have served as priest-apprentices, so hence were males. Now I’m not sure were destroying confusion or creating it. Men only can atone for the Sin of Adam. If you’ve got that, you’ve got it all.
No Jesus atones for men and women alike. The atonement has been made.
Priests can atone for no one. Jesus has done it. Just like no woman can atone for women, but only the Son of God can make a perfect sufficient sacrifice.
 
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