Woman on the altar

[GraceDK]

He/she said nothing about the laity being barred from doing anything. He/she just said that laity is doing more than it was ever intended to do.

**Yep, and with that I disagree and the Church disagrees too **

The priest is there for a reason, let him do his job; force him to do his job.

I have never stopped him at all… but where I am the priests love to have the lay people, men and women, read and help out…

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Pfaffenhoffen, you have bady misundertood. The OP didn’t say anything about not going to Mass if it were not a Tridentine, but just explained that she had to go to an OF (the correct term for the Mass you mean, ‘Woman’, meaning Ordinary Form) and so that involved Bidding Prayers.

‘Woman’, there is nothing wrong with women going up near the altar to say/read Bidding Prayers, but don’t feel pressured if you don’t want to do this. Perhaps the people inviting you to do so thought it was being welcoming to you.

Thanks.
I take out my post.
I understood wrongly. Even know, I hardly understand the problem, so better get out…

 

[floresco]

No Jesus atones for men and women alike. The atonement has been made.
Priests can atone for no one. Jesus has done it. Just like no woman can atone for women, but only the Son of God can make a perfect sufficient sacrifice.

The Mass is a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary. The Mass is a propitiatory sacrifice in which we experience (not just talk about) Christ’s atonement for our sins. Jesus Christ Himself is the perfect priest and the perfect sacrifice and both of these are present in the Mass. The priest acts as alter Christus another Christ, just as Christ is really present in the consecrated bread and wine.

These aspects of Catholic doctrine are less clearly presented in the OF and also tend to be neglected in catechesis. It is not unusual for Catholics to be unaware of them.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Anyone who really wants to see women to the fore in the Church can attend a ‘Communion Service In Absence Of A Priest’ run by one.

Traditionlists prefer to have all men in the sanctuary; vested, getting on with the job, facing forward and no fussing in the sacristy before and after. Just like in ancient Israel, ancient Rome and in every Catholic church up to the 80’s.

God gives you what you want, 'though it may take a while. It may or may not benefit you but you’ll learn a lesson. This applies to groups as well as individuals.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

You contradicting the earlier point! Alter boys have not had holy orders. but this is besides the point. And also everything that is special about a priest is the grace that flows through him from God!
Even a bad man who is ordained a priest and does bad things, when he concecrates the bread and wine, they become the Eucharist. What is important is Jesus. He loves all of us equally so there is no need for the separation you are imposing.
If women can receive the Eucharist, the body and blood of Jesus himself, than why would it be disgraceful for them to be on the alter?
A church is a building, an alter is a raised floor. What is significant is how these material things allow us to give glory to God. Women on the alter do not detract from that in any way shape or form.

ill just quote what i said earlier
"Part of the awesomeness that is being catholic is that we have Catholic church and the pope to guide our understanding of Jesus’ teachings. As such when we are faced with lines of scripture that are so challenging to understand(such as the ones above) we can rely on Catechism, Church Tradition and the pope to guide our understandings of those passages.

The church teaches that only men can become priests and say mass, however there is no Catholic teaching that states or implies that women cannot go on the alter. Women are an extremely important part of the chruch just as are men.

Stuff like this is what causes people to get such twisted mis understandings of what the Catholic church is and what we teach.
"

Honestly though i didn’t even know this was a thing. I didn’t know that there were Catholics in today’s world who would think something so frighteningly un catholic as it being wrong for women to be on the alter.
Like this really seriously worries me in ways i cant even describe.

The comment wasn’t meant to argue that women are somehow unworthy to men but to show that the priest has been given a special office over the laity and that the laities position on the altar is not equal to the priests; it has nothing to do with gender since this applies to both men and women. I apologize by not making that clear in my original reply. I felt that you were stating that the laities position on the altar is equal to the priest’s which I feel is incorrect since the priest has more of a right because of his office.

“If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel.”–St. Francis of Assisi

 

[Steady_Eddy]

Yes, and a succession of Popes has allowed women to speak in the Church, and to teach, for quite some time now. Women are not to be priests by the rules of these same Holy Fathers who interpret and guide our traditions. Hierarchy need not be a fearful thing. The woman to whom you spoke did not understand this. I do, as does Our Lady, and rejoice in it. Blessings on your Day.:angel1:
Kathryn Ann

Hello again,

I’m certainly not against women in any way, my own mother is one as was my grandmother (a very devout Catholic) who happened to rear me part of the way. She’s actually with me in my profile. As I’ve said before what bothers me most is all the noise and distractions. I’m attending daily Mass for about 35 years now, I know what it was like before, and I know what it’s like now, why wouldn’t I be saddened? At least I can still attend the earliest Mass of the day which is always quieter, and I rise at 4am for private meditation, but I pity those who have no such silence in their lives.

The pope I think is doing the best he can, but like his predecessors he is dealing with a lot of obstinacy within the Church. I think a lot of the changes that have crept in recently i.e. removal of the altar rails, Eucharistic ministers, Communion in the hand etc were brought in by erring bishops and priests without ever consulting the Vatican or the pope. Some people I’m sure would overthrow and overrule the pope if they could and this is easily detected in their speech and behaviour.

We must ask ourselves the question does any of the above improve the Mass in any way. And the answer of course is a definite no because you simply can’t improve something that was perfect already. There’s nothing lovelier in this whole wide world than a nice quiet Mass with no unnecessary noise and no unnecessary distractions, it’s the nearest thing to heaven on earth. But unfortunately a lot of people are not in tune with what’s actually happening upon the altar or they don’t seem to care. They come to meet other people not God, and so they distract everyone else. I was asked myself some years ago would I like to be a minister or a reader and I refused. And it’s not in fact making people any holier or any more involved in the Mass, it is in fact having the opposite effect. I know some will disagree but that’s my personal opinion.

2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Hello again,

I’m certainly not against women in any way, my own mother is one as was my grandmother (a very devout Catholic) who happened to rear me part of the way. She’s actually with me in my profile. As I’ve said before what bothers me most is all the noise and distractions. I’m attending daily Mass for about 35 years now, I know what it was like before, and I know what it’s like now, why wouldn’t I be saddened? At least I can still attend the earliest Mass of the day which is always quieter, and I rise at 4am for private meditation, but I pity those who have no such silence in their lives.

The pope I think is doing the best he can, but like his predecessors he is dealing with a lot of obstinacy within the Church. I think a lot of the changes that have crept in recently i.e. removal of the altar rails, Eucharistic ministers, Communion in the hand etc were brought in by erring bishops and priests without ever consulting the Vatican or the pope. Some people I’m sure would overthrow and overrule the pope if they could and this is easily detected in their speech and behaviour.

We must ask ourselves the question does any of the above improve the Mass in any way. And the answer of course is a definite no because you simply can’t improve something that was perfect already. There’s nothing lovelier in this whole wide world than a nice quiet Mass with no unnecessary noise and no unnecessary distractions, it’s the nearest thing to heaven on earth. But unfortunately a lot of people are not in tune with what’s actually happening upon the altar or they don’t seem to care. They come to meet other people not God, and so they distract everyone else. I was asked myself some years ago would I like to be a minister or a reader and I refused. And it’s not in fact making people any holier or any more involved in the Mass, it is in fact having the opposite effect. I know some will disagree but that’s my personal opinion.

2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry

I truly like what you have said here.

 

[Crusader83]

Hello again,

I’m certainly not against women in any way, my own mother is one as was my grandmother (a very devout Catholic) who happened to rear me part of the way. She’s actually with me in my profile. As I’ve said before what bothers me most is all the noise and distractions. I’m attending daily Mass for about 35 years now, I know what it was like before, and I know what it’s like now, why wouldn’t I be saddened? At least I can still attend the earliest Mass of the day which is always quieter, and I rise at 4am for private meditation, but I pity those who have no such silence in their lives.

The pope I think is doing the best he can, but like his predecessors he is dealing with a lot of obstinacy within the Church. I think a lot of the changes that have crept in recently i.e. removal of the altar rails, Eucharistic ministers, Communion in the hand etc were brought in by erring bishops and priests without ever consulting the Vatican or the pope. Some people I’m sure would overthrow and overrule the pope if they could and this is easily detected in their speech and behaviour.

We must ask ourselves the question does any of the above improve the Mass in any way. And the answer of course is a definite no because you simply can’t improve something that was perfect already. There’s nothing lovelier in this whole wide world than a nice quiet Mass with no unnecessary noise and no unnecessary distractions, it’s the nearest thing to heaven on earth. But unfortunately a lot of people are not in tune with what’s actually happening upon the altar or they don’t seem to care. They come to meet other people not God, and so they distract everyone else. I was asked myself some years ago would I like to be a minister or a reader and I refused. And it’s not in fact making people any holier or any more involved in the Mass, it is in fact having the opposite effect. I know some will disagree but that’s my personal opinion.

2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry

Irish? Of course you are, that was too poetic not to be from an Irishman!

 

[JReducation]

Do not people suffer from fault, not from the reason for fault?

If the implementation is faulty, of course people may suffer. Philosophy tells us that we fix the method of implementation, that that which we’re trying to implement.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

 

[EddyDRR]

If the implementation is faulty, of course people may suffer. Philosophy tells us that we fix the method of implementation, that that which we’re trying to implement.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

What if we’re tired of being experimented on?

I’m not a lab rat, and I’d prefer my spiritual life not be an experiment.

I want truth, not maybe.

If not FOR the reality of the Eucharist, many wouldn’t be Catholic. It’s just a shame when, instead of being treated to the transfiguration, we’re treated to the trial.

Is Jesus there? Of course, if everything is legit. But it’s just saddening to a degree unable to be expressed without tears.

Why not just open a new rite where this stuff can take place and quit treating Rome (in its abstract, far-reaching way) as a lab?

This two-form Rite business is bunkum.

 

[Jennet]

This is a personal opinion, but this scramble on the parts of some to have women operating in every possible role in the Church strikes me as very unseemly.

God has always chosen men to be his priests. To say this is a “cultural thing” and just of the times is ridiculous. One could hardly accuse Christ of not wanting to upset the cultural status quo, and yet He chose men as His apostles and thus as His first priests, in spite of having plenty of strong and saintly women available to Him too.

We woman have so many sacred burdens available to us already. Why are we clamouring for more?!

 

[paperwight66]

God has always chosen men to be his priests. To say this is a “cultural thing” and just of the times is ridiculous. One could hardly accuse Christ of not wanting to upset the cultural status quo, and yet He chose men as His apostles and thus as His first priests, in spite of having plenty of strong and saintly women available to Him too.

We woman have so many sacred burdens available to us already. Why are we clamouring for more?!

Well, on the first point of Christ not choosing women to be apostles, the counter-argument could be that women would have been in danger if they travelled alone to evangelise.

Your second point, asking why are women clamouring for more sacred burdens doesn’t reflect my experience. Women do a lot in parishes because a. the priest asked them to or b. somebody has to. I haven’t seen any clamouring going on.

 

[JReducation]

This is a personal opinion, but this scramble on the parts of some to have women operating in every possible role in the Church strikes me as very unseemly.

God has always chosen men to be his priests. To say this is a “cultural thing” and just of the times is ridiculous. One could hardly accuse Christ of not wanting to upset the cultural status quo, and yet He chose men as His apostles and thus as His first priests, in spite of having plenty of strong and saintly women available to Him too.

We woman have so many sacred burdens available to us already. Why are we clamouring for more?!

I don’t think that the other posters were thinking about women as clerics. That’s not the sense that I got out of this discussion. My take is that people are talking about women in other positions on the sanctuary: servers, readers or EMHC.

Well, on the first point of Christ not choosing women to be apostles, the counter-argument could be that women would have been in danger if they travelled alone to evangelise.

We know that Jesus deliberately chose males for Holy Orders, because they are to act in persona Christi. The Greek Fathers established that the Homoousious is male, because he takes on a male human nature. Once the hypostatic union happened in that way, it becomes fixed for all time that Christ speaks authoritatively only through the male person. The Alter Christos must be male, by pure logic. Women cannot become the Alter Christos, because the Church has no authority to change this. This is an infallible truth that must be believed by all Catholics and Orthodox. It’s not a cultural choice that Jesus made. It was logical choice.

Your second point, asking why are women clamouring for more sacred burdens doesn’t reflect my experience. Women do a lot in parishes because a. the priest asked them to or b. somebody has to. I haven’t seen any clamouring going on.

There are some extremists out there who defy the Magisterium on this point, but they’re really a small loud voice. That’s all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

Well, on the first point of Christ not choosing women to be apostles, the counter-argument could be that women would have been in danger if they travelled alone to evangelise.

According to a PBS documentary (Peter and Paul), women were in less danger had they had been identified as Christ’s supporters. The Apostles for sure would have been crucified with Christ by the Romans had they stuck around. Just saying.

 

[englishredrose]

Before you all tell me I am Anglican
many of the people in church do not like that I am serving on altar simple because am female because they agree with you people. though they are very friendly with me etc. just don’t approve of that one aspect.

It an honour to be asked I would say. But do as you feel comfortable.

 

[marcella_1981]

My thoughts (only because you asked): I don’t like the bidding prayers in the first place since they are usually shallow, materialistic, vague and this-worldly. Aside from that, if they must be done, then they should be read by a male.

This response is just laughable, sorry.

 

[Joannm]

This response is just laughable, sorry.

Why don’t you offer to write them then for your parish. As someone who has written the petitions for over 15 years now, I can tell you it is not easy. People are always asking you to include this petition or that petition, the priests are saying not to have so many petitions, there are so many legitimate needs to pray for, people sick, the dead. I have to write them so that they don’t seem like I am repeating the same week after week. Also there is a certain format these prayers have to take.

 

[grasscutter]

Why don’t you offer to write them then for your parish. As someone who has written the petitions for over 15 years now, I can tell you it is not easy. People are always asking you to include this petition or that petition, the priests are saying not to have so many petitions, there are so many legitimate needs to pray for, people sick, the dead. I have to write them so that they don’t seem like I am repeating the same week after week. Also there is a certain format these prayers have to take.

Um, I think you may have misunderstood Marcella.

 

[JReducation]

Why don’t you offer to write them then for your parish. As someone who has written the petitions for over 15 years now, I can tell you it is not easy. People are always asking you to include this petition or that petition, the priests are saying not to have so many petitions, there are so many legitimate needs to pray for, people sick, the dead. I have to write them so that they don’t seem like I am repeating the same week after week. Also there is a certain format these prayers have to take.

It was not Marcella who objected to the Prayers of Petition. It was TheNewsMan.

You do bring up an important point. The prayers of petition are not easy to write. They follow a prescribed methodology and they have to include the Church, the nation and the needs of the local community. In addition, they must follow the theme of the liturgy of the day and they should match the language that is used in the Prayers of Intercession in the Liturgy of the Hours. They’re not easy to write. I take my hat off to anyone who attempts to do so. We had to do it as part of our formation when I was a novice. I hated it when my turn came up. I’m not the most poetic person in the world. Good prayer is also good poetry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I don’t think that the other posters were thinking about women as clerics. That’s not the sense that I got out of this discussion. My take is that people are talking about women in other positions on the sanctuary: servers, readers or EMHC.

We know that Jesus deliberately chose males for Holy Orders, because they are to act in persona Christi. The Greek Fathers established that the Homoousious is male, because he takes on a male human nature. Once the hypostatic union happened in that way, it becomes fixed for all time that Christ speaks authoritatively only through the male person. The Alter Christos must be male, by pure logic. Women cannot become the Alter Christos, because the Church has no authority to change this. This is an infallible truth that must be believed by all Catholics and Orthodox. It’s not a cultural choice that Jesus made. It was logical choice.

There are some extremists out there who defy the Magisterium on this point, but they’re really a small loud voice. That’s all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br. Jay,
You bring up something here that I find very interesting.
I was once a supporter of the ordination of women, and had a wonderful spiritual director at the time who asked me some very good questions that finally brought me to this realization.
That said, can you recommend and books/authors that I could read that will expand on this a little more.

Thanks!

Peace be with you!