Women and Dress

[fide]

Well-said, Joe 5859. You answered several issues of confusion, for which I’m grateful. However, I’m guessing, but I speculate that you will only set off more mines. You’ve presented in a very reasoned way what I believe to be true, but I don’t think reason will be appreciated, or received. I’ll say it plainly (another mine laid, probably), but many women are just angry - and will be for a very long time, to their own detriment.

 

[somecanadian]

I’m sure anger is a sin that women uniquely struggle with.

To me the ‘men struggle with lust more’ thing sounds like an excuse. Thus why I respond poorly to it.

May I just ask plainly: Do you feel women are responsible for guarding men from lust? Because if the answer is no then we are not in an argument at all.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

What about if we also add in a society that lauds the latter having sex and shames the former? You see how this can influence matters?

Thanks for mentioning this. I have no problem whatsoever imagining that women internally lust just as frequently as men do, but restrain themselves from both acting on and expressing that lust given our culture’s gender norms. When was the last time you heard of a man being slut shamed? How about a man being referred to as “loose”? It rarely happens because men are expected to act like raging sex fiends in our society while women are expected not to, then individuals like fide use that cultural expectation as evidence that in reality women don’t have the same sex drive as men. It’s an inherently circular reference.

Let us consider this from a male’s perspective: we’re expected to essentially be hormone driven perverts who can’t help ourselves (which, of course, is why women are expected to “cover up” because we clearly lack sufficient moral agency to be culpable for our actions), so what happens when a pubescent boy, for example, doesn’t feel that same drive that all his buddies exhibit? What happens when he doesn’t feel like engaging in the “locker room talk”? He gets labeled a queer, that’s what happens. Or what about men who get raped by women? Aspersions are cast upon their allegations because, as everyone knows, men can’t be raped: we deep down always want sex.

 

[FollowChrist34]

For what it is worth I think women are much more susceptible to emotional crushes, a sort of romanticism, fantasy. This can get very passionate and destabilizing though, as bad as basic physical lust. I am not saying that women don’t get affected by that too. But I think men do tend to be a little more basic, hands on (pardon the pun) about sexual attraction. Women emotionalize it. And yes, this is super off topic, I guess. But it still goes back to dress choices. I am a moderate on this - I honestly think Muslim covering is excessive but that a lot of modern Western women really do look like courtisans. This kind of dressing is encouraged culturally as a form of self-assertion, self-definition, affirmation of sexuality. I think to deny that this is 180 degrees from the teaching of Christ is disingenuous; and I see many modern day liberal Christians/Catholics leaning this way. Also I think women dress too suggestively often due to a need for attention, acceptance - it is an emotional lack they try to fix by following debasing social norms. Often, one figures this out as one gets older…

 

[somecanadian]

Nailed it.

Thank you for this. I think you just summed up our argument against this mentality in a pretty succinct way!

 

[fide]

Interesting, Rose. I think I heard once something like (I may not get it right) what lust is for a man, pride is for a woman - I just did a search and found this HERE:

For men, the main problem is lust - but for women it’s a question of pride.

A Vatican cleric has outlined how the sexes struggle differently with the seven deadly sins.

Monsignor Wojciech Giertych used evidence from the confessional to compile his two lists.

He says that men’s greatest weakness is lust, followed by gluttony, sloth and then anger. They are less likely to commit the sins of pride, envy and avarice.

But women most usually confess to sins of pride and envy, followed by anger. Lust is fourth on the list, followed by gluttony, avarice and sloth.

 

[fide]

That’s more personal than I want to get into here.

 

[Pup7]

What the…

I daren’t even ask

LOL wise decision.

 

[Pup7]

I’m out of likes, but just wanted you to know I heart this post a lot.

 

[DarkLight]

Let us consider this from a male’s perspective: we’re expected to essentially be hormone driven perverts who can’t help ourselves […], so what happens when a pubescent boy, for example, doesn’t feel that same drive that all his buddies exhibit?

I’ve definitely heard this from male friends - that they actually feel pressure to act “lustful” around other men, because it proves they’re real men.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

When was the last time you heard of a man being slut shamed? How about a man being referred to as “loose”? It rarely happens because men are expected to act like raging sex fiends in our society while women are expected not to, then individuals like fide use that cultural expectation as evidence that in reality women don’t have the same sex drive as men. It’s an inherently circular reference.

Yes! Thank you, Albert!!! :fist_left:

 

[Mi_Rose]

It is hard to have a discussion about this because it always ends up being men telling women what they think.
Editing to clarify: They being women

 

[mrsdizzyd]

He says that men’s greatest weakness is lust, followed by gluttony, sloth and then anger. They are less likely to commit the sins of pride, envy and avarice.

Men are LESS likely to commit the sin of pride?! :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

 

[FollowChrist34]

Well, biologically men and women are different, right. High levels of testosterone vs. estrogen have very different effects. Men produce sperm on a continual basis, women ovulate once a month. This all has a huge impact on sexual desire and practice. Again, as I said earlier, women are susceptible to lust and men are susceptible to emotional crushes, no question. But basic biological trends are predominant. I think a lot of women in today’s culture are pressured to act like men about sex; discover their buried rampant out of control lust. Germaine Greer on steroids. Men are likewise pressured to discover their inner mom, docility, house husband in Birkenstocks with socks (speaking of fashion…kind of a modern day chastity belt, trust me on that ). All this openness and flexibility has its place but can get pretty weird and unhealthy in big doses.

 

[Mi_Rose]

Men don’t confess pride as much. Many sins we hide from ourselves and others will be revealed at our judgement. May God have mercy on us all.

 

[Pup7]

I’ve definitely heard this from male friends - that they actually feel pressure to act “lustful” around other men, because it proves they’re real men.

My male friends are older now, of course, but they talk about this as well. Apparently it actually doesn’t really disappear with age. One of them has a young son and it worries him that this is the accepted “norm”. I can remember when I figured out that most guys really were full of garbage and that there was more to their talk than what was visible on the surface; i.e., they were either greatly exaggerating or out-and-out lying in order to fit into some expectation that I of course didn’t understand.

Thanks for mentioning this. I have no problem whatsoever imagining that women internally lust just as frequently as men do, but restrain themselves from both acting on and expressing that lust given our culture’s gender norms. When was the last time you heard of a man being slut shamed? How about a man being referred to as “loose”? It rarely happens because men are expected to act like raging sex fiends in our society while women are expected not to, then individuals like fide use that cultural expectation as evidence that in reality women don’t have the same sex drive as men. It’s an inherently circular reference.

Amen to this. And the rest of Albert’s post, which only goes back to what I say above about realizing guys are many times lying, but they’re doing it to save face and fit a construct I’ve never been privy to.

Of course, women lie - in the other direction, though, to appear as though they DON’T lust or, within the context of marriage, even LIKE sex (though that is changing) because our construct for decades (and in my lifetime) says ‘good girls don’t’.

 

[Pup7]

I think a lot of women in today’s culture are pressured to act like men about sex; discover their buried rampant out of control lust. Germaine Greer on steroids.

But the kick is that a sex drive is NORMAL. Telling women you’re not meant to have one is not, and in the long run likely did more psychological harm than good.

It’s no better than telling men they’re supposed to have one that’s constantly in overdrive. That’s fueled many a societal problem in my opinion. If women are meant to say no and men are always meant to want it…well, you see where I’m going with that.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

They are super easy to sew as well. And, I do mean super easy. The hardest part is finishing the neckline and embellishments (if you so choose).

 

[Pup7]

Men are LESS likely to commit the sin of pride?!

10 Hail Marys for THAT bit of misinformation. LOL.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

Yup! Sometimes your own parents can unwittingly pressure you. My mother once found a dirty magazine in the house and confronted all of us boys about it (there’s 4 of us). Little did any of us know it belonged to my sister! Mom honed in on my two older brothers since they were high school aged. While they were bickering over who it really belonged to I fessed up. I don’t really remember why I lied about it being mine, but I do remember the adulation I subsequently earned from my older brothers, whom I’d always looked up to. My dad had a serious talk with me about chastity and whatnot, but a few days later I overheard him on the phone sort of bragging about what I did. Even my God-fearing father who understood the moral gravity of pornography was secretly giving me the old “atta boy!”