Women and Islam

[dzheremi]

Hold on here–that was not my idea at all! Nononono. If Jews wanted an entirely Jewish state, they had no right to FORCIBLY EXPEL the existing population. They did it anyway. People have done it for centuries. I’m telling you that THEY DIDN’T HAVE THE RIGHT.

You and I are actually in agreement on the Palestinian issue, so plase stop yelling at me.

And please forgive me for having taken you seriously when you wrote this:

If Jews just want somewhere to be Jewish, then they ought to have gone somewhere that wasn’t already populated with non-Jews

I had assumed that it meant exactly what it appears to mean, but perhaps I misread you. I apologize.

I am not suggesting at all that religions can’t spread. But you’ve made a serious mistake here thinking that Christians don’t have a history of conquest. Because they absolutely do.

For the last time, Sister Amy, I recognized that Christianity has a history of conquest and violence in my original post. Do I need to state it again in bold so that you won’t accuse me of playing favorites? Christianity has its own history of violence and conquest every bit as disgraceful as the Islamic conquests that I do not think are in any way justifiable. Better? Again, my point was not that Christianity is without its own shame, but that the initial spread is absolutely not comparable to the intial spread of Islam. Intial spread. Not what the Europeans did beginning in the age of colonization, or for that matter what Muslim traders did in Indonesia in the 13th century. Obviously it was probably much better to be an Indonesian convert to Islam in the 13th century than it would be to be a Mayan…well, basically ever. Economic connections in both cases make strange bedfellows. What can I say? I excuse nothing of the bloodthirsty conquerers of any religion, because my religion says to wipe the dust from your feet and move on should anyone not accept your message. To the extent that my fellow Christians have often chosen to do other things, I hope someone has been around to ask them what good it does a man to gain the whole world if in the process he loses his soul. Does Islam have any similar axiom to prevent the forced conversion of un-interested people? “No compulsion in religion” is often invoked, but abrogation being a principle unique to Islam I can never tell what I should take as the truth of what Muslims are required to believe.

Violent and oppressive? The spread of Islam was absolutely not violent or oppressive during the rule of Muhammad, nor during the rule of the Rightly Guided Caliphs, as they are called. It is what you see once the lands of Islam became ruled by Empires. Precisely the same situation as Christianity. Precisely the same.

Didn’t I say that in my original post? I believe I did. Also, was the invasion of Visigothic Spain during the time of the Rightly Guided Caliphs? The Islamization of Berber and Coptic North Africa? It is easy to make blanket statements, but harder still to ignore the history of the native peoples of those areas (who are NOT Arabs, and were NOT Muslims until they had by and large lost the battles to hold onto the Christianity and Judaism that was native to them prior to Islam).

Why should Jews have to leave Palestine? I don’t think they should have to. Just like I don’t think anyone else should have to. Have you not been paying attention?

I could ask you the very same question, since all you seem to have gotten out of my original post is “Islam bad; Christianity good”!

My family is originally from England. Should I go to England today, centuries later, and declare that I am home. Or isn’t America my home now? My family has been here for generations. And as far as I am concerned, it is my home.

Umm…you could do that, I guess. This is not really a comparable situation. It’s pretty silly, actually. I sure wouldn’t want to pretend that I am home in Mexico City, and my grandma (who is still alive now) was born there!

For that reason, I see Jews living in Palestine today as being in their home–not because their ancestors of millenia lived there, but because they have grown up there. Similarly, Palestinians living in Palestine have just as much right because they have also grown up there. What I don’t think is possible is for the Jews to take the right of the Palestinians away–for the Jews to take the land where Palestinians lived, and to expel the Palestinians.

Okay.

I’m convinced now that you’ve never understood my position on Palestine–perhaps I have poorly articulated it, but I would be far happier for you to stop making assumptions about it. What I propose is peace and equal rights for all the people living in Palestine. Forcing either to live, or subjugating one to the other, is nothing but injustice.

Same to you, since for the millionth time: you and I are in agreement about Palestine! We agree! I am not disagreeing with you on this issue! Most of my post did not have to do with that.

 

[sedonaman]

If everything was so hunky-dory for all of the religious communities in India, then what is this thing we call “Pakistan”? Why does it exist? Besides, my point is not that all Muslims have ever done is convert people by the sword. I don’t believe that for a second. The only point I was trying to make with my post is that Christians and Muslims look at the history of the Middle East from entirely different perspectives, since in our eyes Islam did nothing but run roughshod over Christian civilizations (and others) that were already established in those places.

It would seem that the Indians share the Christian perspective:

“The Decrees of Islam”
by Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari
31 Dec, 2008
islam-watch.org/Brahmachari/Decrees-of-Islam-1.htm

 

[Cracker_Mom]

That’s just about the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on this forum. Not quite, but pretty close.

If Christians wanted a place to be free to be Christian, maybe they should have gone somewhere other than America which was already populated with people of another religion.

This logic is so -]foolish/-] pointless I will be very embarrassed to see if it survives onto the next page.

I think it’s pretty good logic (and history.)
How many churches operate freely in Saudi Arabia today? How many in Israel?
No, Israel’s not perfect.Far from it.Nor are “Western” countries.We could get into a whole dissertation re the unraveling of Western culture & morals…But I think it’s pretty clear where women have the most freedom & where religious tolerance is best practiced.

 

[sedonaman]

…But I think it’s pretty clear where women have the most freedom & where religious tolerance is best practiced.

Lo and behold ! They happen to be the same places !

For Sister Amy: This discussion has passed the point where you said you would be embarrassed.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think it’s pretty good logic (and history.)
How many churches operate freely in Saudi Arabia today? How many in Israel?
No, Israel’s not perfect.Far from it.Nor are “Western” countries.We could get into a whole dissertation re the unraveling of Western culture & morals…But I think it’s pretty clear where women have the most freedom & where religious tolerance is best practiced.

Do you think Saudi Arabia is perfect or something, is it not allowed to have flaws?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Lo and behold ! They happen to be the same places !

For Sister Amy: This discussion has passed the point where you said you would be embarrassed.

A very good friend of mine used to have as a quote as his forum signature, that shouldn’t freedom be the right to decide what freedom means to me?

Western peoples pat themselves on the back–they think they are religiously tolerant because they let people of other religions live here. They think they are free because they feel no restrictions on their behavior.

But I can tell you that the more sincerely I try to practice Islam, the more constricted I feel by living in the West. I don’t feel ‘free’ to cover my hair, when I get sneers and dirty looks, and when my own family refuses to go out in public with me. I don’t feel ‘free’ to pray 5 times a day when I have to hide in a stairwell while at school. I don’t feel ‘free’ to learn and study about Islam because by doing so I’m considered to be an ‘extremist.’ I’ve seen my teachers locked up and deported for some of their teachings.

So maybe you think there is freedom–but it’s not universal. Many many people will gladly take the “oppression” (what you call it) in Saudi Arabia over the “freedom” of the USA, because Saudi they are not oppressed in their faith, or in its practices, as they are here.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Do you think Saudi Arabia is perfect or something, is it not allowed to have flaws?

If the subject is women’s freedom, then the flaws are more egregious.
Re. the subject of this whole thread,come on.Women have much more freedom in the West & in Israel.Period. They have less freedom in Muslim countries.
Are women living more moral lives & making better choices in Western nations? Not that I can see.40 percent of births in America are now out of wedlock.What does that say?Pretty sad.But the fact is women do have the freedom to make bad choices here.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

A very good friend of mine used to have as a quote as his forum signature, that shouldn’t freedom be the right to decide what freedom means to me?

Western peoples pat themselves on the back–they think they are religiously tolerant because they let people of other religions live here. They think they are free because they feel no restrictions on their behavior.

But I can tell you that the more sincerely I try to practice Islam, the more constricted I feel by living in the West. I don’t feel ‘free’ to cover my hair, when I get sneers and dirty looks, and when my own family refuses to go out in public with me. I don’t feel ‘free’ to pray 5 times a day when I have to hide in a stairwell while at school. I don’t feel ‘free’ to learn and study about Islam because by doing so I’m considered to be an ‘extremist.’ I’ve seen my teachers locked up and deported for some of their teachings.

So maybe you think there is freedom–but it’s not universal. Many many people will gladly take the “oppression” (what you call it) in Saudi Arabia over the “freedom” of the USA, because Saudi they are not oppressed in their faith, or in its practices, as they are here.

OK, try to open a church in Saudi Arabia. How many mosques are in America? How many churches in Saudi Arabia?

 

[Sister_Amy]

If the subject is women’s freedom, then the flaws are more egregious.
Re. the subject of this whole thread,come on.Women have much more freedom in the West & in Israel.Period. They have less freedom in Muslim countries.
Are women living more moral lives & making better choices in Western nations? Not that I can see.40 percent of births in America are now out of wedlock.What does that say?Pretty sad.But the fact is women do have the freedom to make bad choices here.

I disagree. Women are not more free in the West–they are oppressed and burdened, but in a different way than women in other nations.

 

[Sister_Amy]

OK, try to open a church in Saudi Arabia. How many mosques are in America? How many churches in Saudi Arabia?

Still missing the point, I fear.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

I disagree. Women are not more free in the West–they are oppressed and burdened, but in a different way than women in other nations.

Baloney.There’s no comparison.That’s the difference.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Still missing the point, I fear.

Nope, waiting for an honest response.With data.
I bet another poster with more time could supply the facts.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Nope, waiting for an honest response.With data.
I bet another poster with more time could supply the facts.

If you wanted data you could probably find it yourself.

There are no churches in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and I don’t think there ever will be any churches there. And frankly, it doesn’t bother me.

But anywhere else in the Muslims world there are churches, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The Arabian peninsula is what we call an exception, so it’s not a fair comparison to say that there are mosques in the USA while there are not churches in the KSA. It’s a true statement but a faulty comparison. That’s why I said you’re missing the point.

Pick another country, and you’ll find churches there.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

If you wanted data you could probably find it yourself.

There are no churches in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and I don’t think there ever will be any churches there. And frankly, it doesn’t bother me.

But anywhere else in the Muslims world there are churches, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The Arabian peninsula is what we call an exception, so it’s not a fair comparison to say that there are mosques in the USA while there are not churches in the KSA. It’s a true statement but a faulty comparison. That’s why I said you’re missing the point.

Pick another country, and you’ll find churches there.

Thanks for answering the question.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

…How many mosques are in America? How many churches in Saudi Arabia?

America is a holy land for Christians ? Do Christians from all over the world go to USA for pilgrimage ? Pl. remember , Muslims two holiest mosques are there in KSA. Muslims go there for religious purposes from all around the world–throughout the whole year , specially during Hajj & Ramadan.

But , I think , except Macca & Madina , Saudi Govt. may consider to allow Churches in other cities . Anyway , in other Muslim countries , Chrisitans are allowed to built Churches when Muslims face protests from non-Muslims to built mosques in many countries.

 

[algebra]

Baloney.There’s no comparison.That’s the difference.

I agree with Amy here.

There are different burdens.

 

[sedonaman]

But I can tell you that the more sincerely I try to practice Islam, the more constricted I feel by living in the West. I don’t feel ‘free’ to cover my hair, when I get sneers and dirty looks, and when my own family refuses to go out in public with me. I don’t feel ‘free’ to pray 5 times a day when I have to hide in a stairwell while at school. I don’t feel ‘free’ to learn and study about Islam because by doing so I’m considered to be an ‘extremist.’ I’ve seen my teachers locked up and deported for some of their teachings.

So maybe you think there is freedom–but it’s not universal. Many many people will gladly take the “oppression” (what you call it) in Saudi Arabia over the “freedom” of the USA, because Saudi they are not oppressed in their faith, or in its practices, as they are here.

Delta is ready when you are. And that goes for anyone else who feels oppressed.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Delta is ready when you are. And that goes for anyone else who feels oppressed.

So I’m not welcome in the USA, is that what you’re saying?

 

[sedonaman]

America is a holy land for Christians ? Do Christians from all over the world go to USA for pilgrimage ?

Well sort of … if you consider wanting to go on living to be a religion.

We have a large problem with aliens entering the US illegally on our Southwestern border. They have to pay a coyote thousands of dollars for the privilege of risking their lives, and the lives of their families, to cross a burning desert just to get to a country to be oppressed? Something doesn’t compute. Meanwhile, Mexico doesn’t have a problem of Americans entering their country illegally. I hadn’t heard that the KSA has a problem of people entering illegally either.

That’s enough data for me.

 

[sedonaman]

So I’m not welcome in the USA, is that what you’re saying?

No. I’m simply suggesting that if you are so unbearably oppressed, you are free to vote with your feet. That’s one of your human rights. BTW, I understand a person [even a Saudi] has to have the government’s permission to leave KSA. That kinda tells me something.