Women as lectors

[Moyle]

I would agree with you - I hope the Church is very careful. But that’s just it. I think this is an opportunity, a time for hope!

The Church traditionally is very careful about selecting/instituting/consecrating people for ministry, and this would mean that a more standardized process of formation would be offered to those who would be lectors, instead of the hodge-podge that we have from diocese to diocese and even within the same parish.

Along the same line of thinking, it would also mean that the bishops of a national conference would need to get together and agree on how they want to handle a mobile lay population who would be permanently “charged” with some of the Church’s (and their) authority.

People would still be temporarily “deputized” as readers, especially while in training, but in time this would weed out or re-train those unsuitable for it (especially those who have done it for forever, and are just plain awful, yet nobody wants to step on their toes.)

The more people there are in a parish who have graduated from an official lay formation program and have been instituted, the more resources will there be available for better catechesis and more pleasant liturgies - and not just Mass, but things like the Liturgy of the Hours.

The Church has NOT always been careful about selecting people for ministry. A prime example today are lay readers, EMsHC and altar servers in many cases.

The USCCB need not (and likely would not) set the formation requirements for instituted lectors.

“Untrainable?” Do you really think some reader who has been doing a horrible job of it for 30 years yet still craves to be a lector is going to be denied in most cases if they are willing to endure the formation?

 

[Moyle]

Well then perhaps the synod should have asked for Guidelines in training for readers instead of opening up a can of worms.

Instituting laypersons who are not on the track of ordination. to the lectorate is like me allowing my 4 year old son" help" me change the oil in our car. It makes him feel better but it serves no purpose.

The protestantization continues.

I can actually think of perhaps 2 men that would make great lectors and perhaps 4 men who would make great acolytes, out of a group of at least 50.

One of the problems is that I seriously doubt any of the six would apply to the formations. All six are quite humble, fairly busy and would be horrified by the “cattle call” of possible new lectors and acolytes.

The other problem is that at least half of the remaining people would. These are people who have demonstrated over time (a long time) that they are poor readers and EMsHC or servers. Even with continued remedial help they take a toll on the Mass. Do you think they would be denied the title (and the “prestige”) of being either lectors or acolytes? Highly doubtful.

 

[Cristiano]

…Instituting laypersons who are not on the track of ordination. to the lectorate is like me allowing my 4 year old son" help" me change the oil in our car. It makes him feel better but it serves no purpose…

I think that you have a misconception of what instituted means and what the purpose of a ministry is. This is exactly the reason that Gaudim and Spes was addressing. We have instituted acolytes in our diocese and I think that it is a great idea. We should have the same with lectors. Institution into a ministry is completely different from ordination. It is almost like saying that we should not have permanent deacons because the individual is not going to be a priest. Or we could also say that we should not have priests because the individual is not going to be a bishop.

 

[PJM]

Lots of people on this board also get their panties in a twist whenever they hear about the “overuse” of Extra-ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, those who are deputized, but “outside of orders” to perform this ministry. We don’t seem to hear them whine about the use of readers to perform the ministry of lectors.

Reply: Just for the record, I do not wear “panties.” That alone may disqualify me from responding

But the truth must be shared.

Were you aware that not one of the following list of " Vatican II mandated changes was actually mandated by the Fathers of Vatican II?

Removal of Altar rails, a “walk around (some times removable altar), Holy Communion under both species, Holy Communion in the hand ( these last two were specifically voted on and rejected my a vast majority of Bishops) altar girls,
ORDINARY ministers of the Most Holy Eucharist (every day and in every church cannot in any bodies mind be considered “Extrodinary,” and even altar girls.”

Believe me my friend I can give Current… Valid, and Licit documentation to all that I have shared with you.

So what you seem so proud of (please excuse my opinion of what you stated) was all “born our of disobedience to our Supreme Pontiff and the Roman Catholic Magisterium.”

Indults were requested but were already “Common Practice,” before they were granted. In other words, thet were granted out out of blackmail.

It does not seem prudent to (can’t say what I thought of) to try to make the errors you recount, into some magnificent pre approved plan on behalf of our Holy Father, and those Bishops in Full Communion with him. Amen?

It would seem that since the role of lector and reader is exactly the same, the Church could do the faithful a great service by removing the artificial distinction. REPLY: it’s not “artifical.” PJM If the dioceses and parishes worked hard to recruit, train, and prayerfully discern good lectors, this would greatly stabilize and improve liturgy. Only in rare circumstances would there be an untrained, inexperienced reader up there out of necessity. The standards would have to be higher than “Can you come when scheduled?” … Well if it HAS to be, I agree with your desire for selected and trained readers of God’s Holy Word.

God’s continued blessings,
PJM m.c.

 

[Aramis]

I’m fairly certain at least the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches do not ordain women. Further, I don’t believe any women are allowed into the sanctuary during Divine Liturgy.

You are quite wrong. The Greeks mostly ordain deaconesses for the remote women’s monasterys, where priests are rare, according to 3 articles I’ve read. Ask BpBasilPhoenix… he’s the authority.

The OCA doesn’t, nor does the GOARCH. But the Greek Orthodox Church of Greece Does. Several of the Orthodox churches do.

angelfire.com/pa/deaconess/ has some excellent links.

weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/479/spec1.htm

americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=3997
Discusses the 2004 Greek Orthodox Church decision to restore the order of Deaconesses.

ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=338788

Ignorance, presumptions, and assumptions will not change what has been done: modern females ordained in the Greek Orthodox Church. (Which does not actually include the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, as that is actually part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.)

I was, quite frankly, surprised at first, too.

 

[Moyle]

You are quite wrong. The Greeks mostly ordain deaconesses for the remote women’s monasterys, where priests are rare, according to 3 articles I’ve read. Ask BpBasilPhoenix… he’s the authority.

The OCA doesn’t, nor does the GOARCH. But the Greek Orthodox Church of Greece Does. Several of the Orthodox churches do.

angelfire.com/pa/deaconess/ has some excellent links.

weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/479/spec1.htm

americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=3997
Discusses the 2004 Greek Orthodox Church decision to restore the order of Deaconesses.

ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=338788

Ignorance, presumptions, and assumptions will not change what has been done: modern females ordained in the Greek Orthodox Church. (Which does not actually include the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, as that is actually part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.)

I was, quite frankly, surprised at first, too.

Actually you are “quite wrong” as well.

First in no way is the “ordination” of women uniform throughout Eastern Orthodoxy as your original posting suggested. It’s not even uniform throughout the Greek Orthodox Church and it’s flatly rejected by the Russian and other national Orthodox churches. Forgive me if I’m not too quick to embrace angelfire.com websites and the musings of America magazine, a magazine with a notoriously skewed viewpoint and agenda.

Second, even those Orthodox groups that do “ordain” women do not employ them in the same manner as they do male deacons – they do not enter the sanctuary during the Divine Liturgy. You had better study-up a bit on how the Orthodox view “deaconesses” compared to deacons.

It would be an explosive and fragmenting moment in the history of Eastern Orthodoxy if one of its national churches were to ordain women to the diaconate with the same meaning, authority and responsibility they do men. It would also horribly strain relations with the Catholic Church.

You’re quite right when you say “ignorance, presumptions, and assumptions” (not that there is a difference in this case) will not change what has ACTUALLY taken place.

 

[ChemicalBean]

Oh my, where to begin?

There is a question at the bottom of the post.

Why don’t we use your ideas listed above RIGHT NOW with the selection of men into the role of lector in the church??? Why haven’t we done it for 30 years?

My best guess, which I indicated in my last post, is that

it would also mean that the bishops of a national conference would need to get together and agree on how they want to handle a mobile lay population who would be permanently “charged” with some of the Church’s (and their) authority.

If you’re a layperson applying to the seminary of a diocese, they will heavily scrutinize your record. If you are successfully ordained, you pledge obedience to serve under that bishop and his successors. If you transfer dioceses or join a religious order, there is a formal process of transferring authorities. It’s pretty easy to keep tabs on priests (and laicized priests) in all of the structure. If you’re some nutjob instituted lector who up and moves dioceses frequently, it would be VERY hard for the bishops to keep track of you when you owe them very little and yet hold a formal liturgical office which you should rightly perform. I suspect that the USCCB is not really of one mind on how to handle this, and they’ve had so many other issues to discuss that crafting a coherent plan of action on this has been one of the least of their worries for the past 30 years.

Ok Ok Now let me ask you this…

Will you support your ideas listed above if the pope (which is very likely) denies the request? Wouldn’t your ideas above come to very good use even when the pope denies the request. If so perhaps you should be vocal about it…having instituted Lectors (even if it is only men) would be…in your words…better and would make for more pleasant liturgies.

Of course I would stand by what I have said. However, if the pope denies the proposal, then there is very little reason to be vocal about it right now for the practical reasons discussed above.

Oh, to your final note:

Requiring people to graduate from a lay ministry program is not realistic.

I am the only person in my parish for the last 10 years to even enroll in the ministry formation program. I am one of 10 people in my deanery in the last few years. Asking someone to attend 2 years of rubbish to be a glorified reader in church is too much.

If anyone thinks that all a lector needs to be is a glorified reader, and think that a commitment to a 2-year formation program is rubbish for a LIFETIME of service, then I don’t want him to be instituted ANYTHING. Even if it is only men. Then you really would risk turning such a valuable ministry into a stale, formalized, good-ol-boys club! Daresay, the church doesn’t need any more of those.

 

[Moyle]

…If anyone thinks that all a lector needs to be is a glorified reader, and think that a commitment to a 2-year formation program is rubbish for a LIFETIME of service, then I don’t want him to be instituted ANYTHING. Even if it is only men. Then you really would risk turning such a valuable ministry into a stale, formalized, good-ol-boys club! Daresay, the church doesn’t need any more of those…

I could not agree more. One of the reasons the positions of subdeacon and porter were abolished is they were positions of prestige that were sometimes handed-out to the wrong men with little or no formation.

As part of the formation for future priests and deacons, they are not instituted to the offices of lector and acolyte until at least 2-3 years into their formations. That’s precisely why I see nothing wrong with a 2 year (at least) formation.

Dumb it down to 8 Wednesday evenings in a row from 7-9pm and you’re going to cause a great deal of problems.

 

[Dicerning]

ChemicalBean;4359223:

Of course I would stand by what I have said. However, if the pope denies the proposal, then there is very little reason to be vocal about it right now for the practical reasons discussed above.

.

THe proposal is only adding women to the already instituted lectorate. There already is an opportunity institute men. (there has been for 30 years) Are you aware of what the training is now? Your ideas mentioned in previous posts about training and selection are very similar to how it is now for lectors. A very close family of ours moved here from LIncoln, NE. He was trained as a lector and acolyte and his training consisted of a series of training sessions that took place over a year. They were chosen by their church because they were good readers.

Which brings me to another point.
In Lincoln (the only diocese that current institutes lectors that I know of) Lectors are chosen by the church, not the other way around. It is by invite…not by application.

You bring up some pretty good points in your suggestions for training. However you need to realize that an insitituted Lectors ONLY job is to read the non-Gospels scriptures at Mass. NOTHING else. It is not a position of status or authority. With that in mind if a person is not a physical danger to the people there is not reason why a “nutjob” (your word) shouln’t be allowed to be an instituted lector as long as he/she is doing the readings properly.

Your nutjob comment makes me wonder if you have some exalted view of what an instituted lector is.

When a reader becomes an instituted Lector nothing really happens to them. They go from being commissioned to being instituted. Their job is exactly the same…nothing more…nothing less.

 

[Dicerning]

Dumb it down to 8 Wednesday evenings in a row from 7-9pm and you’re going to cause a great deal of problems.

This is exactly my main point. like I said a simple idea of Lector has now been some exalted office of the magisterium.

What on earth would Lectors study for 2 YEARS?

Their only job is to read at Mass…thats IT.

I guess I can see why many like me think that if the proposal request is granted there will be groups of Lectors running around wearing their badges thinking their job is more than being a reader at Mass. (see my OP).

We have a man at our church who reads awesomely. He knows how to deliver the word fromt he ambo. He sounds like a cross between james earl jones and the guy who does the NFL films narration.

Why in the world would the man need two years of training and institution to do exactly what he is doing now?

It is pointless.

I say do away with the whole idea of Lectors except for those who are on their way to holy orders.

 

[John_Lilburne]

… However you need to realize that an insitituted Lectors ONLY job is to read the non-Gospels scriptures at Mass. NOTHING else. It is not a position of status or authority. …

No, this is incorrect. A few official documents that make this point.

Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest: “30. In the absence of both a priest and a deacon, the pastor is to appoint laypersons, who are to be entrusted with the care of these celebrations, namely, with leading the prayers, with the ministry of the word, and with giving holy communion.
Those to be chosen first by the pastor are readers and acolytes who have been duly instituted for the service of the altar and of the word of God. If there are no such instituted ministers available, other laypersons, both men and women, may be appointed …”.

Ceremonial of Bishops, about instituted lectors: “794. … In addition, the reader is entrusted with the special office of instructing children and adults in the faith and of preparing them to receive the sacraments worthily.” (Sounds like a catechist).

Book of Blessings “18. … d. An acolyte or readers who by formal institution has this special office in the Church is rightly preferred over another layperson as the minister designated at the discretion of the local Ordinary to impart certain blessings.”

Another useful document to understand the role of instituted lectors is the 1972 Motu Proprio, Ministeria Quaedam which is at romanrite.com/Churchdoc.html .

References:
Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, 2 June 1988, Congregation for Divine Worship, published by USCCB, ISBN 1555862519, page 10.
Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 219.
Book of Blessings, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1875-8, page xxviii.

 

[Dicerning]

No, this is incorrect. A few official documents that make this point.

Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest: “30. In the absence of both a priest and a deacon, the pastor is to appoint laypersons, who are to be entrusted with the care of these celebrations, namely, with leading the prayers, with the ministry of the word, and with giving holy communion.
Those to be chosen first by the pastor are readers and acolytes who have been duly instituted for the service of the altar and of the word of God. If there are no such instituted ministers available, other laypersons, both men and women, may be appointed …”.

Ceremonial of Bishops, about instituted lectors: “794. … In addition, the reader is entrusted with the special office of instructing children and adults in the faith and of preparing them to receive the sacraments worthily.” (Sounds like a catechist).

Book of Blessings “18. … d. An acolyte or readers who by formal institution has this special office in the Church is rightly preferred over another layperson as the minister designated at the discretion of the local Ordinary to impart certain blessings.”

Another useful document to understand the role of instituted lectors is the 1972 Motu Proprio, Ministeria Quaedam which is at romanrite.com/Churchdoc.html .

References:
Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, 2 June 1988, Congregation for Divine Worship, published by USCCB, ISBN 1555862519, page 10.
Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 219.
Book of Blessings, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1875-8, page xxviii.

I stand corrected. I did realize the SCAP requirement however I thought that was reserved to the Instituted Acolytes only then on to qualified laity. I didn’t realize that Lector was next in line…you did use the term reader though instead of lector…

In this case however if we wer to follow church regulations on this matter then we would lose the role of lay reader for mass. I believe that if one is present at mass then the lector is required by GIRM to do the reading. meaning if a church had only one Instituted Lector and one mass each sunday the same person would be reading each week.(provided that lector was present at Mass)…thus causing the unemployment of readers who wer not lectors. Which adds to my reasoning why the remaining two of the minor orders be suppressed to all who are not on track for ordination.

Those here in this forum who are not familiar with the History of the minor orders do not realize that Lector and Acyolyte wer minor orders of the priesthood at one time…and opening up the role to women is walking into some serious problems within the church. Having the role open to lay men is confusing enough.

 

[Joannm]

No, this is incorrect. A few official documents that make this point.

Directory for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest: “30. In the absence of both a priest and a deacon, the pastor is to appoint laypersons, who are to be entrusted with the care of these celebrations, namely, with leading the prayers, with the ministry of the word, and with giving holy communion.
Those to be chosen first by the pastor are readers and acolytes who have been duly instituted for the service of the altar and of the word of God. If there are no such instituted ministers available, other laypersons, both men and women, may be appointed …”.

Ceremonial of Bishops, about instituted lectors: “794. … In addition, the reader is entrusted with the special office of instructing children and adults in the faith and of preparing them to receive the sacraments worthily.” (Sounds like a catechist).

Book of Blessings “18. … d. An acolyte or readers who by formal institution has this special office in the Church is rightly preferred over another layperson as the minister designated at the discretion of the local Ordinary to impart certain blessings.”

Another useful document to understand the role of instituted lectors is the 1972 Motu Proprio, Ministeria Quaedam which is at romanrite.com/Churchdoc.html .

References:
Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, 2 June 1988, Congregation for Divine Worship, published by USCCB, ISBN 1555862519, page 10.
Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1818-9, page 219.
Book of Blessings, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1875-8, page xxviii.

I do believe I read that the main reason for considering the institiution of lectors was for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, and that was also the reason for opening it up to women. It had nothing to really do with reading at Mass, since even at Papal Masses women read. I also think that this would entail some sort of education and, coming under the authority of the Bishop, he would have more control over who is conducting these services, since they would have to be appointed by him.

 

[Dicerning]

I do believe I read that the main reason for considering the institiution of lectors was for Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest, and that was also the reason for opening it up to women. It had nothing to really do with reading at Mass, since even at Papal Masses women read. I also think that this would entail some sort of education and, coming under the authority of the Bishop, he would have more control over who is conducting these services, since they would have to be appointed by him.

Was there such a thing as SCAP back when the minor orders were suppressed?

Why open it up to Women? Men are not capable of holding SCAP?
We already have the possibility for lectors…and nobody has the guts to insititue them.
Except for Lincoln, NE which ironically will likely never need to use the term Scap since the seminary is considering putting tents in the front yard to house the overflowing seminary dormitory.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Can someone who has been instituted later be “un-instituted”?

 

[Moyle]

This is exactly my main point. like I said a simple idea of Lector has now been some exalted office of the magisterium.

What on earth would Lectors study for 2 YEARS?

Their only job is to read at Mass…thats IT.

I guess I can see why many like me think that if the proposal request is granted there will be groups of Lectors running around wearing their badges thinking their job is more than being a reader at Mass. (see my OP).

We have a man at our church who reads awesomely. He knows how to deliver the word fromt he ambo. He sounds like a cross between james earl jones and the guy who does the NFL films narration.

Why in the world would the man need two years of training and institution to do exactly what he is doing now?

It is pointless.

I say do away with the whole idea of Lectors except for those who are on their way to holy orders.

Cathchesis is NEVER pointless unless it’s bad catechesis. Aspiring lectors and acolytes could study the same things would-be deacons do. Heck it would be profitable if EVERY Catholic went through such a formation.

It’s sort of why why many go through 4-5 years to get a bachelor’s degree. They might be able to gain the actual technical skills in a year or less (many get their actual training on the job once they graduate) but that degree, the effort it took and the breadth of knowledge imparted is still very important.

 

[Aramis]

Can someone who has been instituted later be “un-instituted”?

Yes. However, it is much the same as defrocking a cleric.

 

[Joannm]

Was there such a thing as SCAP back when the minor orders were suppressed?

Why open it up to Women? Men are not capable of holding SCAP?
.

If you have instituted Lectors celebrating a SCAP then there is some control over it by the Bishop and they can be assured that those doing it have been properly educated. As it is now, it seems that anyone who volunteers can preside at one. I th ink that is what they are trying to get away from. Since only men now can be instituted Lectors that means that a SCAP can only be presided over by a man. Hence the proposition to open it up to women.

 

[Dicerning]

Cathchesis is NEVER pointless unless it’s bad catechesis. Aspiring lectors and acolytes could study the same things would-be deacons do. Heck it would be profitable if EVERY Catholic went through such a formation.

Deacon training.
My program is Masters level. In fact we will be getting a Masters in pastoral theology.

Not sure if you agree with me but I would hope a lector would not need a masters degree to read at mass.

Good point about correcting me on the Catechesis being pointless. This whole discussion gets me wondering about the training of lectors in places like lincoln. Certainly Bp. Bruskewitz cannot be too far off with his several training sessions.

It is likely that B16 will not visit this matter and grant the request anyway…with that in mind this whole discussion does bring to mind that perhaps the church should start insitituting Lectors now…even if it is male only…it can only be good for the church.

 

[Moyle]

Deacon training.
My program is Masters level. In fact we will be getting a Masters in pastoral theology.

Not sure if you agree with me but I would hope a lector would not need a masters degree to read at mass.

Good point about correcting me on the Catechesis being pointless. This whole discussion gets me wondering about the training of lectors in places like lincoln. Certainly Bp. Bruskewitz cannot be too far off with his several training sessions.

It is likely that B16 will not visit this matter and grant the request anyway…with that in mind this whole discussion does bring to mind that perhaps the church should start insitituting Lectors now…even if it is male only…it can only be good for the church.

The master’s degree part is likely misleading…

In my diocese aspirants for the diaconate complete a correspondence school degree of sorts. If they already have a bachelors they can earn a masters. If they are not degreed they can earn a certificate.

The formation pales in comparison to what a “real” bachelors or masters would require in terms of commitment and effort, but at least it’s not “8 Wednesdays in a row from 7-9pm.”