Women as lectors

[Dicerning]

The master’s degree part is likely misleading…

In my diocese aspirants for the diaconate complete a correspondence school degree of sorts. If they already have a bachelors they can earn a masters. If they are not degreed they can earn a certificate.

The formation pales in comparison to what a “real” bachelors or masters would require in terms of commitment and effort, but at least it’s not “8 Wednesdays in a row from 7-9pm.”

Interesting. I know for fact that we will be given a Masters Degree in Pastoral theology provided we successfully defend a thesis.

Our formation program is 5 years and we will be taking our academic work at the diocesan university. We do however only meet for 18 hours per month for 5 years.)Ordination is not dependent upon “completion” of the degree but Candidates MUST complete All of the work minus the Thesis for oridiantion. However since the academic portion of degree is Completely and totally free (minus the books of course which are required for training anyways) one would be a fool not to complete the THesis I believe my entire class will be recieving their masters degree since we are all college grads…

Soo at least around here for now 18 hours a month for 5 years seems a little steep for lector training. Especially if they are required to defend a thesis too

 

[Moyle]

Interesting. I know for fact that we will be given a Masters Degree in Pastoral theology provided we successfully defend a thesis.

Our formation program is 5 years and we will be taking our academic work at the diocesan university. We do however only meet for 18 hours per month for 5 years.)Ordination is not dependent upon “completion” of the degree but Candidates MUST complete All of the work minus the Thesis for oridiantion. However since the academic portion of degree is Completely and totally free (minus the books of course which are required for training anyways) one would be a fool not to complete the THesis I believe my entire class will be recieving their masters degree since we are all college grads…

Soo at least around here for now 18 hours a month for 5 years seems a little steep for lector training. Especially if they are required to defend a thesis too

Is having a bachelor’s degree in a related subject required to enter your formation? Could one enter your formation without a bachelors degree and still earn a masters without first earning a bachelors? Or would such men simply complete the coursework and not earn a masters degree?

Did and your fellow aspirants have bachelors in “pastoral theology” or something closely related in order to start right out of the gate doing work at the graduate level? Did you or anyone else in the formation have to go back and at least take some core undergraduate courses in order to handle “pastoral theology” at a graduate level?

I have a few degrees in engineering and business. I cannot imagine entering an actual graduate theology program without having to take a considerable number of undergraduate courses in order to “catch up.” In reality I would have to take most if not all of the “major” courses required for a bachelors in “pastoral theology.”

 

[Joannm]

Is having a bachelor’s degree in a related subject required to enter your formation? Could one enter your formation without a bachelors degree and still earn a masters without first earning a bachelors? Or would such men simply complete the coursework and not earn a masters degree?

Did and your fellow aspirants have bachelors in “pastoral theology” or something closely related in order to start right out of the gate doing work at the graduate level? Did you or anyone else in the formation have to go back and at least take some core undergraduate courses in order to handle “pastoral theology” at a graduate level?

I have a few degrees in engineering and business. I cannot imagine entering an actual graduate theology program without having to take a considerable number of undergraduate courses in order to “catch up.” In reality I would have to take most if not all of the “major” courses required for a bachelors in “pastoral theology.”

Most graduate schools of theology, including major seminaries, require some kind of theology and philosophy prerequisite. I had 21 undergrad credits in theology plus an advanced catechist certificate so I was able to beging the Masters without the prerquisits. However many of my classmates had to take 3 preliminary courses for no credit before they began the program. OUr seminarians who do not have any undergrad theology or philosophy have to take preliminary courses while living in a special residence before beginning the major seminary. Aspirants for the diaconate in our diocese who have a bachelors can earn an Masters but they too need to take preliminary courses if they have had no theology. They can take part in a two year lay ministry program.

 

[KathleenElsie]

As do I & I am a woman. Personally, I’d prefer to do away with all lay ministries. These duties & titles are often sought for the wrong reasons. I deplore the blending of the clergy & the laity. We each have roles & vocations & fulfilling them to the best of our ability takes plenty of effort.

The best service that a woman can give to her Church is to:

1. enter a traditional religious order & give her life to serving God through serving others…
2. Become a Catholic Wife & Mother.
   As far as I’m concerned there is enough " power & influence" in fulfilling either of these ministries WELL.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Women cannot be instituted as acolytes. The position of ALTAR SERVER is called “Master of Ceremony” in your parish.

I’m fairly sure a woman could be an MC as there is no limitation to men only. This is not true of acolyte.

My original post was meant to explain that there are no Acolytes in our parish. They were replaced by all girl MCs and the only ones serving with the Priest are the MCs. Our Latin Rite parish encourages the girls and not the boys. The only man on staff other then the priest is the Music Minister.

Our Latin Rite parish has never in its 100 year history ever had even one vocation to the priesthood. We have 1500 families listed. Sadly it is well known for its innovations and not for its traditional teachings.

Now we have an active homeschool organization that encompasses a few of the local parishes, in two diocese. We have had vocations come from the families involved. Our youth has not chosen the Diocesan Seminaries. The girls are in more traditional orders. The boys are going into the EF seminaries, Eastern Catholic (even though we are Latin Rite) or Monastic life.

The Byzantine Parish we attend (the priest encourages all the children and works with us homeschool families) encourages ALL the boys present to vest for each DL. Boys are Vested and at the Altar with the priest no matter how many there are at the DL. This Sunday there will be a special DL for the Bishop and I know of seven boys that will be vested for this Special Day. This in a parish with fewer them 100 members.

 

[Moyle]

My original post was meant to explain that there are no Acolytes in our parish. They were replaced by all girl MCs and the only ones serving with the Priest are the MCs. Our Latin Rite parish encourages the girls and not the boys. The only man on staff other then the priest is the Music Minister.

Our Latin Rite parish has never in its 100 year history ever had even one vocation to the priesthood. We have 1500 families listed. Sadly it is well known for its innovations and not for its traditional teachings.

Now we have an active homeschool organization that encompasses a few of the local parishes, in two diocese. We have had vocations come from the families involved. Our youth has not chosen the Diocesan Seminaries. The girls are in more traditional orders. The boys are going into the EF seminaries, Eastern Catholic (even though we are Latin Rite) or Monastic life.

The Byzantine Parish we attend (the priest encourages all the children and works with us homeschool families) encourages ALL the boys present to vest for each DL. Boys are Vested and at the Altar with the priest no matter how many there are at the DL. This Sunday there will be a special DL for the Bishop and I know of seven boys that will be vested for this Special Day. This in a parish with fewer them 100 members.

Why call them “MCs” when they sound like they are altar servers?

 

[Dicerning]

Is having a bachelor’s degree in a related subject required to enter your formation? "

One can enter formation but do not qualify for the masters degree if no bachelors degree is present.

Did and your fellow aspirants have bachelors in “pastoral theology” or something closely related in order to start right out of the gate doing work at the graduate level? Did you or anyone else in the formation have to go back and at least take some core undergraduate courses in order to handle “pastoral theology” at a graduate level?

No just like the undergrads who major in English and History and are accepted into the same grad program. BTW there is no such thing as a bachelors in Pastoral theology…that is a graduate level degree. ALSO FYI there are lawyers and physicians in my class. As well as a PHD in history.

I cannot imagine entering an actual graduate theology program without having to take a considerable number of undergraduate courses in order to “catch up.” In reality I would have to take most if not all of the “major” courses required for a bachelors in “pastoral theology.”

I guess your case is unique because my class is having little trouble following along with graduate level theology.

BTW your discussio here about graduate theology gives me the impression that you expect Lectors to be extremely exalted…and in many cases more academically prepared than priests…which is extremely unrealistic.

You still think Lectors should be Masters prepared? If not you still think they need 5 years of academics?.
wondering if you think altar boys should have their bachelors in religion?

 

[Moyle]

Most graduate schools of theology, including major seminaries, require some kind of theology and philosophy prerequisite. I had 21 undergrad credits in theology plus an advanced catechist certificate so I was able to beging the Masters without the prerquisits. However many of my classmates had to take 3 preliminary courses for no credit before they began the program. OUr seminarians who do not have any undergrad theology or philosophy have to take preliminary courses while living in a special residence before beginning the major seminary. Aspirants for the diaconate in our diocese who have a bachelors can earn an Masters but they too need to take preliminary courses if they have had no theology. They can take part in a two year lay ministry program.

That sounds very reasonable. I know of a seminarian who had never taken a philosophy or theology course (yet had a bachelors from Yale) so he spent a year just as you described (plus learning Spanish) prior to really beginning seminary.

Again, I cannot imagine entering an actual graduate theology program without a bachelors in theology or at least quite a few undergrad foundational courses under my belt.

 

[Moyle]

No just like the undergrads who major in English and History and are accepted into the same grad program…

Not where I went to school. Not without considerable preparation as undergrads.

I guess your case is unique because my class is having little trouble following along with graduate level theology.

I would guess your “Masters in Pastoral Theology” differs a great deal from masters programs in theology at a great many universities and seminaries.

BTW your discussio here about graduate theology gives me the impression that you expect Lectors to be extremely exalted…and in many cases more academically prepared than priests…which is extremely unrealistic.

I would expect anyone permanently instituted in the Church to be extremely well formed. I have no idea what you mean by “exalted.”

You still think Lectors should be Masters prepared? If not you still think they need 5 years of academics?.

What sorta “masters?” There seems to be a great variety available…

wondering if you think altar boys should have their bachelors in religion?

Why would you ask such a silly question?

 

[KathleenElsie]

Why call them “MCs” when they sound like they are altar servers?

That is one to ask the people that are in charge of the parish. I don’t have a say in it.

 

[Dicerning]

Not where I went to school. Not without considerable preparation as undergrads.

I would guess your “Masters in Pastoral Theology” differs a great deal from masters programs in theology at a great many universities and seminaries.

?

Perhaps. But you have to remember that the university is accredited.

I have taken grad level classes at a Big ten university and this doesn’t “feel” much different. However apples and oranges because different fields of study.

in the end perhaps you are right, maybe my diocese is going to have a bunch of new permanent deaconts running around with fake Masters degrees.

with that in mind it doesn’t matter though becuase even those of my class who do not have adequate undergrad prep are likely to not make it anyway. In that case they will not be awarded the degree and may not be ordained in the end.

 

[Joannm]

Not where I went to school. Not without considerable preparation as undergrads.

I would guess your “Masters in Pastoral Theology” differs a great deal from masters programs in theology at a great many universities and seminaries.

I ?

In our diocese those in formation for the diaconate have the choice to earn the MA in Theology or the MA in Pastoral Ministry. The dicaconte program on Saturday’s focus on the MA in Pastoral Ministry and those opting for the Theology degree must take additional courses during the week. In speaking to the profs., who teach in both programs, they say that the Saturday program for the deacon candidates is a bit easier since those not going for the degree are also in those classes as part of their formation even though they are not going for graduate degree.

 

[Dicerning]

In our diocese those in formation for the diaconate have the choice to earn the MA in Theology or the MA in Pastoral Ministry. The dicaconte program on Saturday’s focus on the MA in Pastoral Ministry and those opting for the Theology degree must take additional courses during the week. In speaking to the profs., who teach in both programs, they say that the Saturday program for the deacon candidates is a bit easier since those not going for the degree are also in those classes as part of their formation even though they are not going for graduate degree.

I believe this is true with my diocese as well but right now it is a moot point because the entire class is qualified and 100% of us are on track for Masters.

BTW I do NOT think it is necessary for a Man to have his masters to be a Permanent Deacon…In fact there are man programs that do not offer or require Masters level work. It would severely impede the family life of many many men if they were required to get a Masters degree.

But back to my original objection is the fact that MOYLE said Lectors should have training like a deacon…that is unrealistic…5 years of 18 hours per month 100 hours of supervised field experince per year in the charity areas not to mention a weeklong summer retreat each year psychological testing, ministry profile testing, assigned spiritual direction and assigned mentoring? along with specified Parish work of at least 50 hours per year? And I forgot to mention 2 years of lay ministry formation prior to Aspirancy ( I guess that would be 7 years of formation for deacons)…all this for a a Lector? somone who reads at mass and rarely may lead a SCAP?

 

[Aramis]

The duties of instituted lector are not just liturgical:

1. To read the lection at mass
2. to teach the faith
3. to led the faithful in prayer in the absence of a cleric.

2 is the important one most in this thread overlook. Specifically, they are not just readers, but also catechists. Unlike lay readers.

The program should be the equivalent of an associates’ of pastoral ministry and/or associates of theology.

 

[Just_Lurking]

If there is a more rigorous formation program for instituted lectors, and not enough people choose to undertake this formation, then the diocese and the parish can still use temporarily deputed readers. So I don’t see what the problem is in having a more rigorous formation program.

 

[Moyle]

Perhaps. But you have to remember that the university is accredited.

I have taken grad level classes at a Big ten university and this doesn’t “feel” much different. However apples and oranges because different fields of study.

in the end perhaps you are right, maybe my diocese is going to have a bunch of new permanent deaconts running around with fake Masters degrees.

with that in mind it doesn’t matter though becuase even those of my class who do not have adequate undergrad prep are likely to not make it anyway. In that case they will not be awarded the degree and may not be ordained in the end.

Your “pastoral theology” degree sounds a great deal more like an associates degree than a masters from what I am reading.

 

[Moyle]

…But back to my original objection is the fact that MOYLE said Lectors should have training like a deacon…that is unrealistic…5 years of 18 hours per month 100 hours of supervised field experince per year in the charity areas not to mention a weeklong summer retreat each year psychological testing, ministry profile testing, assigned spiritual direction and assigned mentoring? along with specified Parish work of at least 50 hours per year? And I forgot to mention 2 years of lay ministry formation prior to Aspirancy ( I guess that would be 7 years of formation for deacons)…all this for a a Lector? somone who reads at mass and rarely may lead a SCAP?

Now you are simply not telling the truth. Shame on you.

I said that aspirants for the diaconate are typically not made lectors and acolytes until at least 2 years into their formations and that I see no problem with that long of a formation.

Then again things differ from diocese to diocese. I barely think the formation our deacons go through here locally is enough for would-be EMsHC but that’s a whole other story.

 

[Moyle]

If there is a more rigorous formation program for instituted lectors, and not enough people choose to undertake this formation, then the diocese and the parish can still use temporarily deputed readers. So I don’t see what the problem is in having a more rigorous formation program.

BRAVO!

Just what is the benefit of instituting lectors unless they are willing to undergo a significant formation?

 

[Dicerning]

Your “pastoral theology” degree sounds a great deal more like an associates degree than a masters from what I am reading.

What a nice thing to say! Perhaps I will share this with m classmates…those who are in deacon formation and those who will graduate with us that are not in the Deacon formation program.

We are taking all of our classes with the University students. I am sure they will find joy in your statement.

Peace and blessing to you.

I think this topic has run out for me.

 

[Joannm]

Your “pastoral theology” degree sounds a great deal more like an associates degree than a masters from what I am reading.

How can you determine that not knowing what the courses are that must be taken? Courses in accredited programs must live up to a certain standard. It sound like the degree is more of a professional Masters rather than academic, but that still does not discount it as Master’s level coursework. When I stated that in our seminary the Pastoral Ministry program is a bit easier than the Theology program I said it because even though some of the required courses are the same the focus is more on practical ministry than on academic theology. The Pastoral Ministry degree focusus on things that the deacons will be doing in the parish rather than on academic work, teachining on a high school or undergraduate level, or on research,which is the focus of hte Theology Masters.