Women, how do you judge your own modesty?

[thequietsinger]

Please, I’d rather keep this thread mostly to women. I suspect I’m not the only one who looks at clothing and has a hard time answering the question “is this modest?” It seems like I get labelled as “slutty” or “distracting” or “tempting” no matter what I wear, especially with a body that many refuse to believe is my natural shape (no dieting or implants or padding). I just have the wrong sort of figure to be seen as a good modest woman.

I was taught to ask what would tempt a man, and to look at whether or not I was treated more or less sexually as the judge. But it seems that in a long skirt and blouse I still come across as more of a sex object than another women may be in a minidress. If we can’t go by this standard, what do we go by?

As someone who is constantly looked up and down, whistled at, etc. while at work (I work on a military base at a rec center), I, too, question my modesty, even though that’s when I’m covered up the most - jeans, t-shirt, jacket, and tennis shoes. When I look for regular clothing, though I wasn’t taught to, I’ve always asked myself - “Would I want my Dad to see me in this?” Needless to say, that has kept my clothing very modest. And yet, I still have people look me up and down, at work or elsewhere, which is really embarrassing to me, because of my age (17) and the fact that it’s really uncalled for.
In my opinion, we should go by instinct. If we think it’s immodest just by looking at it, it probably is. But if we think it would be a good choice, chances are, it is. Go with that you think is modest, and try your best to forget about/ignore the rude men. As hard as it is, it’s the best thing you can do.

 

[DarkLight]

As someone who is constantly looked up and down, whistled at, etc. while at work (I work on a military base at a rec center), I, too, question my modesty, even though that’s when I’m covered up the most - jeans, t-shirt, jacket, and tennis shoes. When I look for regular clothing, though I wasn’t taught to, I’ve always asked myself - “Would I want my Dad to see me in this?” Needless to say, that has kept my clothing very modest. And yet, I still have people look me up and down, at work or elsewhere, which is really embarrassing to me, because of my age (17) and the fact that it’s really uncalled for.
In my opinion, we should go by instinct. If we think it may be immodest, it probably is. But if we think it would be a good choice, chances are, it is. Go with that you think is modest, and try your best to forget about/ignore the rude men. As hard as it is, it’s the best thing you can do.

Keep in mind I grew up fundamentalist. That’s the struggle I’m having…I don’t want to spend my time looking like your stereotypical frumpy housewife (no offence to our stay-at-home mothers, but please don’t wear that look), and yet that’s the only clothing I was taught to see as modest, or that my family would be ok with.

 

[DarkLight]

Because of my upbringing, my instincts go off at anything remotely feminine or pretty. We were taught, no bare shoulders ever, no empire waists, nothing that shows curves at all. So the only things I don’t feel immodest in make me look like I’m a kid who is playing dress-up in her grandmother’s clothes - big and baggy on my shape and hopelessly out of style for a 20-something young woman.

 

[Celtic_Maiden]

If you are shapely and pretty, you will always look attractive to men, even if you are wearing very modest clothing. You’re not obliged to dress in huge jumpers and shapeless shifts just because you have been blessed with a good figure!

I think the “rules” for dressing modestly are the same whatever your shape, really. Don’t wear things too tight, too short or too low-cut.

Excellent advice, tops not low, wear a cami under a blouse, skirts knee length or longer if they suit, bar that, you are doing everything you can, as one OP says, some men have there minds in the gutter all the time, I always quote a good Bible reference to them when they leer that generally does the trick. Its there problem not yours, your doing your best.

I know its a horrible feeling, had it myself, but I gave the men a dirty look, a Bible quote, or ask them were they Catholic, if they said yes, I told them that they needed Confession ASAP. If they said no, I would say to them is that how your mother brought you up to treat women. Always worked for me.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not talking about people I know though. I’m talking about having “Hey baby why won’t you let me touch you” yelled at you, or being approached by a stranger asking if you want to “help them have a good time,” or spending your entire bus ride being leered at.

My experience of such people is that if you are recognizably female, then even if you are shaped like a stick and dressed in a gunny sack, they will say these things. It has nothing to do with how you look, and everything to do with the fact that those people are just total louts.

The only thing you could wear to make them stop would be a wedding ring.

As far as clothing goes, doesn’t help that I’m both tiny and pretty curvy. Clothing manufacturers seem to assume women my size are all shaped like young teenagers with no curves to speak of. I am really tempted to slap the next saleswoman who tries to direct me to the girl’s section for bras because that’s where my band size is!

I have similar issues; I have to go to the big girl store to get my bras.

 

[ccarte25]

What if you feel like no matter what you wear your doesn’t reflect who you are? That’s always been my problem - I look in the mirror and I see a body that a lot of women really want but that I don’t want. No matter how I dress or what I wear my body just looks like one of those models that starves themselves and then gets implants. I want to look like a strong young woman, not a tiny weak girl with oversized breasts.

I know how you feel. When I look in the mirror I am always shocked at how I look because it isn’t how I feel. I don’t feel overweight! haha People are going to judge you no matter what. You cannot control what they think. Look in the mirror and think about how wonderful you do look! Stop looking at the negative! Yes I know it is easier said then done. Start small, everyday look in the mirror and pick something you like about your body. You aren’t valuing what you have! You have to be an ambassador for yourself! If you don’t take yourself seriously, how can you expect other people to?

 

[DarkLight]

I have similar issues; I have to go to the big girl store to get my bras.

Annoyingly, those don’t have my size either. I’m not actually a super-huge cup size, it’s just that the band size I am is usually assumed to belong to barely pubescent girls. I can find AAA cups but not D cups!

 

[maryjk]

Keep in mind I grew up fundamentalist. That’s the struggle I’m having…I don’t want to spend my time looking like your stereotypical frumpy housewife (no offence to our stay-at-home mothers, but please don’t wear that look), and yet that’s the only clothing I was taught to see as modest, or that my family would be ok with.

DarkLight, I find it interesting that you don’t want to people to comment negatively about what you wear, but you have no problem commenting about what others wear. :nope:

 

[Xantippe]

DarkLight said:

“Please, I’d rather keep this thread mostly to women. I suspect I’m not the only one who looks at clothing and has a hard time answering the question “is this modest?” It seems like I get labelled as “slutty” or “distracting” or “tempting” no matter what I wear, especially with a body that many refuse to believe is my natural shape (no dieting or implants or padding). I just have the wrong sort of figure to be seen as a good modest woman.”

Yeah–a lot of clothes look more modest when one has an Olive Oyl figure.

I’ve gotten bigger on top over the years, and it’s really amazing how different the v-necks in the catalog look on the models than they look on me. It’s like a completely different piece of clothing.

“I was taught to ask what would tempt a man, and to look at whether or not I was treated more or less sexually as the judge.”

I think that’s a lousy idea, as it puts you at the mercy of men who harass women. Who made them the arbiters of female modesty, anyway? Dumb.

“Because of my upbringing, my instincts go off at anything remotely feminine or pretty. We were taught, no bare shoulders ever, no empire waists, nothing that shows curves at all.”

No empire waists? Oh my goodness. If Jane Austen heroine outfits are too provocative, what can we do?

I see that maxi dresses are back in this season, by the way.

 

[AlTheCollegeGal]

What if you feel like no matter what you wear your doesn’t reflect who you are? That’s always been my problem -** I look in the mirror and I see a body that a lot of women really want but that I don’t want.** No matter how I dress or what I wear my body just looks like one of those models that starves themselves and then gets implants. I want to look like a strong young woman, not a tiny weak girl with oversized breasts.

I feel like the bolded is the root of your problem. As young people in society, we are constantly bombarded with the image of what beauty is supposed to look like. Some of us loath our bodies for not conforming to this standard and others who may fall within this “perfect” range may rebel against it due to issues such as the aforementioned body dysmorphia. If you want to look like a strong young woman, then the first step is to accept yourself as God made you. I know how difficult it is to look in the mirror and not focus in on perceived flaws, but if you are in good health, embrace the positive aspects of who you are. Modesty is not simply about what one is wearing, but how one wears it. A person who is confident in her own skin and dresses for her own comfort is what we should aspire rather than some undefinable conception of what is “modest.” After all, some might be scandalized by ankles showing. Hope this helps!

 

[DarkLight]

DarkLight, I find it interesting that you don’t want to people to comment negatively about what you wear, but you have no problem commenting about what others wear. :nope:

I honestly have no idea how else to describe the look I’m trying to talk about. Surely we can agree that some looks aren’t flattering on any woman - that’s what I’m trying to get at. The sort of clothing we were used to made it look like a woman who was too busy to care for her body or even buy clothing that actually fit and looked decent.

 

[DarkLight]

I feel like the bolded is the root of your problem. As young people in society, we are constantly bombarded with the image of what beauty is supposed to look like. Some of us loath our bodies for not conforming to this standard and others who may fall within this “perfect” range may rebel against it due to issues such as the aforementioned body dysmorphia. If you want to look like a strong young woman, then the first step is to accept yourself as God made you. I know how difficult it is to look in the mirror and not focus in on perceived flaws, but if you are in good health, embrace the positive aspects of who you are. Modesty is not simply about what one is wearing, but how one wears it. A person who is confident in her own skin and dresses for her own comfort is what we should aspire rather than some undefinable conception of what is “modest.” After all, some might be scandalized by ankles showing. Hope this helps!

What I don’t like about my body is the attention it draws. Especially with the figure I have, I feel like I can’t dress pretty or in a feminine way without coming across in the wrong way. If I look at all nice that’s going to be all anyone sees of me. You can almost feel the difference, like you lose 20 points of intellect in my field by putting on a skirt, in the eyes of anyone who doesn’t want to sleep with you (which is probably like 2/3 of your colleagues). Suddenly you’re just another pretty girl, interchangeable like all the others.

 

[DaisyNJesus]

I understand where you come from DarkLight.

In psychology there is a concept called “shaming”.
I think this has been done to many women within Communities that promote modesty.
Modesty is a good thing… but some women have a feeling of being somehow provocative or revealing even when they wear normal clothes, because they have been shamed.
It only took a short time after I started going to conservative catholic circles, before I had internalised certain of their perspectives, and I feel now that I have been too much ashamed of myself and my sexuality… so much so that even my family noticed that I wore formless clothes and looked like someone from cultures I do not agree with.
Now I am trying to break out of this exaggeration. I don’t believe that its in line with Gospel freedom, that other people should come up to me and tell me how bad I was for tempting men, while I was as innocent as a girl can be.

 

[Xantippe]

DarkLight said:

“The sort of clothing we were used to made it look like a woman who was too busy to care for her body or even buy clothing that actually fit and looked decent.”

At some point, everything in my wardrobe turned STRETCHY and all the other clothes disappeared, so I understand what DarkLight is mentioning about the SAHM wardrobe.

However, there’s also what the British call the Yummy Mummy look.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yummy_mummy

 

[DarkLight]

I understand where you come from DarkLight.

In psychology there is a concept called “shaming”.
I think this has been done to many women within Communities that promote modesty.
Modesty is a good thing… but some women have a feeling of being somehow provocative or revealing even when they wear normal clothes, because they have been shamed.
It only took a short time after I started going to conservative catholic circles, before I had internalised certain of their perspectives, and I feel now that I have been too much ashamed of myself and my sexuality… so much so that even my family noticed that I wore formless clothes and looked like someone from cultures I do not agree with.
Now I am trying to break out of this exaggeration. I don’t believe that its in line with Gospel freedom, that other people should come up to me and tell me how bad I was for tempting men, while I was as innocent as a girl can be.

That was definitely very strong in my background. And the secular world doesn’t often help. It’s a catch-22 for women: you’re supposed to look attractive, but if you do you’re often labelled as vain or slutty or a bimbo. If you’re pretty that’s all people are going to see, and a lot of people will assume you got where you by being a pretty girl rather than by hard work.

 

[ClearWater]

Please, I’d rather keep this thread mostly to women. I suspect I’m not the only one who looks at clothing and has a hard time answering the question “is this modest?” It seems like I get labelled as “slutty” or “distracting” or “tempting” no matter what I wear, especially with a body that many refuse to believe is my natural shape (no dieting or implants or padding). I just have the wrong sort of figure to be seen as a good modest woman.

I was taught to ask what would tempt a man, and to look at whether or not I was treated more or less sexually as the judge. But it seems that in a long skirt and blouse I still come across as more of a sex object than another women may be in a minidress. If we can’t go by this standard, what do we go by?

Since you asked, I use what St. Padre Pio said as a guideline He said a skirt to be 8" below the knee. He passed away, so we can’t ask him why, but I suspect he said 8", because it’s my experience it needs to be about that long to cover the knees when sitting.

Also, I wear 3/4 length to full length sleeves. I cover up to my neck, but that’s just me.

The reason I do this is, in part, because he is a saint who had the 5 stigmata, the ability to bilocate and more. He was a modern priest, was a priest in the 1960s when we had the miniskirt. So, he addressed modern issues.

Also, we have Our Lady of Fatima said that the Church doesn’t have fashions, that God is always the same, never changes. She warned us against following modern fashions, saying these would be displeasing to God.

So, in answer to your question, I realize I’ll be criticized for doing this, and this is a currently very unpopular position, but those are my guidelines and why.

Personally, I take this issue very seriously, because saint after saint has, St. John Bosco, Padre Pio, St. Chrysostom, St. Perpetua, etc.

catholicmodesty.com/Chrysostom.html

Now, some say modesty is old fashioned, doesn’t apply to our modern times. I disagree. I believe a woman can even go to hell just by the way she dresses, if it provokes men to sin.

Of course, men should resist temptation. If traps are set for them, they need to try to avert their eyes, leave the room (when possible). However, there is a lot we ladies can do to help men by not dressing provocatively to begin with, not set a trap for men.

Realize that communication experts tell us that something like 80% of communication is non-verbal, through gestures, dress, etc. So, let’s develop the virtue of modesty, which goes hand in hand with chastity.

I prefer to err on the side of caution, dress more modestly than wonder. Again, that’s how I handle it. For the rest of the ladies on the forum, just do your best to listen to your conscience. Dress to the best of your ability, in what you would consider to be a modest form.

 

[Xantippe]

DarkLight,

I know this isn’t practical for you right now, but once you are going on the job market, I would suggest putting yourself in the hands of a personal shopper at some place like Nordstrom’s and spending a few hundred dollars on a professional wardrobe for your job search. I would be very explicit with the personal shopper with regard to what my goals are–attractive and professional, but not SEXY. Two or three good outfits will probably cover your eventual job search.

It will be expensive, but if they can get you looking beautiful and professional, it will be well worth it. A little makeup help before you go on the job market might also be helpful.

Best wishes!

 

[DarkLight]

DarkLight,

I know this isn’t practical for you right now, but once you are going on the job market, I would suggest putting yourself in the hands of a personal shopper at some place like Nordstrom’s and spending a few hundred dollars on a professional wardrobe for your job search. I would be very explicit with the personal shopper with regard to what my goals are–attractive and professional, but not SEXY. Two or three good outfits will probably cover your eventual job search.

It will be expensive, but if they can get you looking beautiful and professional, it will be well worth it. A little makeup help before you go on the job market might also be helpful.

Best wishes!

Not a bad idea…

Now, is there a wardrobe that makes the affirmative action people shut up? :angel1:

 

[jackiem]

Here is my two cents…

I struggle with some of the same issues, I’m curvy and have a super hard time with bras that have a tiny band size but reasonable cup size. Anyways, I love camis and wear them a lot under shirts to avoid showing cleavage. I also can recommend modest swim suits if that is an issue too. To be honest, I’m shocked that people would approach you in such a disrespectful way. What is your response to such rudeness? (this could change things too, if you laugh or smile it, they may think you like that kind of thing, but instead you should demand respect) Do you wear a crucifix? (this can also be hard bc a short chain is needed so the cross in hanging in non-distracting place). I have been carrying around holy books with me, so if I’m sitting waiting I’m reading the magnificat or a book about Pope Saint John Paul II. It seems that when men see me as a religious person there attempt to be disrespectful often leaves. My advice is wear camis to help not to show cleavage, and try to make it obvious you are a woman striving for holiness with a crucifix, maybe holy bracelets and bring a religious book to read in down time.

 

[maryjk]

Since you asked, I use what St. Padre Pio said as a guideline He said a skirt to be 8" below the knee. He passed away, so we can’t ask him why, but I suspect he said 8", because it’s my experience it needs to be about that long to cover the knees when sitting.

Also, I wear 3/4 length to full length sleeves. I cover up to my neck, but that’s just me.

The reason I do this is, in part, because he is a saint who had the 5 stigmata, the ability to bilocate and more. He was a modern priest, was a priest in the 1960s when we had the miniskirt. So, he addressed modern issues.

catholicmodesty.com/Chrysostom.html

Now, some say modesty is old fashioned, doesn’t apply to our modern times. I disagree. I believe a woman can even go to hell just by the way she dresses, if it provokes men to sin…

Just to let people know what you are advocating, I thought I would quote some of your link

2.Marylike dresses have sleeves extending at least to the elbows; and skirts reaching below the knees. (NOTE: Because of market conditions, quarter-length sleeves are temporarily tolerated with Ecclesiastical Approval, until Christian womanhood again turns to Mary as the model of modesty in dress.)

3.Marylike dresses require full coverage for the bodice, chest, shoulders and back; except for a cut-out about the neck not exceeding two inches below the neckline in front and in the back, and a corresponding two inches on the shoulders.

4.Marylike dresses do not admit as modest coverage transparent fabrics, laces, nets, organdy, nylons, etc. unless sufficient backing is added. However, their moderate use as trimmings is acceptable.

I am sorry, but this isn’t modest dress. This is full coverage dress. Add the requirement of 8 inches below the knee, and we no longer look like Mary, but instead look like a Muslim.

I always wonder what people that encourage coverage like this for women, recommend for men? I have to presume that men shouldn’t wear short sleeves, shorts, or collars that open more than enough to allow the head to push through.