Women in the Priesthood

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I do not know whether to laugh or to cry. I tell you what, I will produce for you the the actual definition of papal infallibility from the council that defined it.

For your information this is the fourth session of the first vatican council. I was going to quote the catholic encyclopedia as well but really the council is eneogh.

Now you could do yourself a favor by admitting you are wrong.

Paul
Sadly, we could give tony et al as many authoritative proclamations as we can find, but people that show this level of animosity and stubbornness toward authentic Church teaching simply don’t want to know the truth, because it isn’t what they want to hear.

You can’t argue against conspiracy theorists, because for as many valid arguments as you make, and as many authorities on the subject you find that bolster your claim, they will always just do one of a few things
  • Fall back on the few people that they can find that hold their view (and not even necessarily that hold their view, but that simply have questioned the authority in the past, which they then twist for their own purpose).
  • Tell you that you are wrong, without giving a counter argument.
  • If they DO give you a counter argument, which you can show to be invalid, they will just ignore whatever argument you’ve then made.
This is the sort of situation that is talked about in Matthew 7:6. It’s a waste of time trying to explain to someone that doesn’t want to understand or believe.
Those of us on the right side of history, nature and God’s Law are open to listening to contrary ideas, and then we can provide counter arguments which show that the contradictory arguments are invalid. The difference with those who oppose the Church’s teaching is that they MAY listen to our arguments (more than likely not) but they will not provide any way to invalidate them (an it may be more than one course of back-and-forth, but eventually they fail to provide and invalidating counter argument). So we need to pray, that God will allow them to see the truth…or at least WANT to see the truth. And we need to know when not to continue fruitless arguments with people who take our attention from explaining these things to people who actually want to know the truth and follow it.

HD
 
An assertion has been made about female priests in the early church. I would like to see the proof of such. What are your references for such a statement?
 
An assertion has been made about female priests in the early church. I would like to see the proof of such. What are your references for such a statement?
While I do not necessarily agree with his assertions, the basic argument has been given by theologian Prof. Gary Macy (at the [Jesuit] Santa Clara University).

One lecture is given here.

You can read part of his book on the subject here.

See also my post here.

Again, I wish to make it clear I am merely responding to your question, without necessarily endorsing Prof. Macy’s argument.
 
I do not know whether to laugh or to cry. I tell you what, I will produce for you the the actual definition of papal infallibility from the council that defined it.For your information this is the fourth session of the first vatican council. I was going to quote the catholic encyclopedia as well but really the council is eneogh.
Now you could do yourself a favor by admitting you are wrong.

Paul
1.You have told me what I have known for many years.
2. Now give me the reference to the ex cathedra statement that women cannot be ordained priests.
3. If you cannot “causa finita est”.
 
Vatican 1:
when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
  • that is, when,
  1. in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
  2. in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
  3. he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
The conditions I listed earlier are exactly the same as what is quoted above but for the sake of argument I will give you one more chance to recognize the infallibility of the Popes statement.
Pope JP2:
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.
Where the pope says.

“This judgment is to be definitively held by all the churches faithful.” This is fulfilling requirement 3.

Where the Pope says

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance …in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren” He is fulfilling requirements 2 and 3.

This is my last post explaining basic theology to you tony.

Good luck

Paul
 
The conditions I listed earlier are exactly the same as what is quoted above but for the sake of argument I will give you one more chance to recognize the infallibility of the Popes statement.
Where the pope says.

“This judgment is to be definitively held by all the churches faithful.” This is fulfilling requirement 3.

Where the Pope says

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance …in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren” He is fulfilling requirements 2 and 3.

This is my last post explaining basic theology to you tony.
Good luck

Paul
Thank you for clarifying what you believe, Paul.

There is theological controversy over whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is an **infallible **document. The Pope states that his judgment is to be definitively held by all the church’s faithful. We can submit to his judgment that the Church has no authority to ordain women without necessarily believing his judgment is infallible. Moreover it is not stated that women will never have the authority to ordain women. Many teachings of the Church have been modified in the light of cultural and social needs. Many doctrines have been developed in the light of historical and theological research.

There are three formidable objections to the exclusion of women:
  1. The ordinary universal Magisterium has not collegially stated that the exclusion of women from ordained ministerial priesthood is to be definitively held.
  2. The exclusion of women from ordained ministerial priesthood seems a violation of the principles set forth in Gaudium et Spes no. 29.
  3. Scriptural passages referring to women deacons, prebyteresses and apostles conflict with their exclusion.This violates the principle of *Dei Verbum number 10 *that the Magisterium is not above Scripture.
 
Thank you for clarifying what you believe, Paul.

There is -]theological/-]*** heretical*** controversy over whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is an **infallible **document. The Pope states that his judgment is to be definitively held by all the church’s faithful. We -]can/-] must submit to -]his/-] -]judgment /-]the Holy Spirit’s revelation to the Church that the Church has no authority to ordain women -]without necessarily believing his judgment is infallible/-]. Moreover it is -]not/-] stated that women will never have the authority to ordain women. -]Many/-] None of the teachings of the Church have been modified in the light of cultural and social needs. Many doctrines have been developed -]in the light of historical and theological research/-] as the Spirit decides to reveal them th His Church.

There are -]three formidable/-] no allowable objections to the -]exclusion/-] infallible decision against ordination of women. There are only heretical statements meant to undermine the authority given to the Church by Christ himself.
There! I fixed it for you.

Eddie Mac
 
While I do not necessarily agree with his assertions, the basic argument has been given by theologian Prof. Gary Macy (at the [Jesuit] Santa Clara University).

One lecture is given here.

You can read part of his book on the subject here.

See also my post here.

Again, I wish to make it clear I am merely responding to your question, without necessarily endorsing Prof. Macy’s argument.
Thank you for your response. I read a portion of his book on-line. Unfortunately, I cannot cut and paste from it. I will get back with my comments later.
 
Thank you for clarifying what you believe, Paul.

There is theological controversy over whether Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is an **infallible **document. The Pope states that his judgment is to be definitively held by all the church’s faithful. We can submit to his judgment that the Church has no authority to ordain women without necessarily believing his judgment is infallible. Moreover it is not stated that women will never have the authority to ordain women. Many teachings of the Church have been modified in the light of cultural and social needs. Many doctrines have been developed in the light of historical and theological research.
It isn’t theological controversy at all. It is only people who refuse to accept the truth in this situation. This could be because they have some emotional need to have authority over others or because they do not wish to accept God’s will in their lives.

But they are all heretics.
There are three formidable objections to the exclusion of women:
  1. The ordinary universal Magisterium has not collegially stated that the exclusion of women from ordained ministerial priesthood is to be definitively held.
  2. The exclusion of women from ordained ministerial priesthood seems a violation of the principles set forth in Gaudium et Spes no. 29.
  3. Scriptural passages referring to women deacons, prebyteresses and apostles conflict with their exclusion.This violates the principle of *Dei Verbum number 10 *that the Magisterium is not above Scripture.
It doesn’t matter.

The statement in ordinatio sacerdotalis is infallible. I have already explained this to you.

Since you are genuinely appearing to stubbornly deny revealed truth as opposed to just being blind, which is an act of malice, it might be a good idea for you to start praying.

Paul
 
PaulAndrew83;5239708 [QUOTE said:
]It isn’t theological controversy at all. It is only people who refuse to accept the truth in this situation. This could be because they have some emotional need to have authority over others or because they do not wish to accept God’s will in their lives. But they are all heretics.
You’re jumping to conclusions and condemning people, assuming they are not motivated by reason but by dishonourable motives. I could equally well attribute your refusal to consider an alternative theological view as dogmatic inflexibility which stems from intellectual pride but I believe in confining myself to the issues at stake.
The statement in ordinatio sacerdotalis is infallible. I have already explained this to you.
There is no point in repeating your statements and ignoring the three points I have made without refuting them.
Since you are genuinely appearing to stubbornly deny revealed truth as opposed to just being blind, which is an act of malice, it might be a good idea for you to start praying.
Now you are setting yourself up as an infallible judge - in disobedience of God’s command that we should not judge others. You are the one who needs to start praying - and praying in particular for the virtue of charity… You are the type of self-righteous person who alienates people from the Catholic Church by threatening them with the fires of hell for being a wilful heretic.
 
The concept of priestesses was alien to the Jewish cu;lture in which Christianity originated…
But the Gentiles outnumbered the Jewish Christians rather soon after the inception of our religion.

You assert that there were female priests in early Christianity, but they were eventually squelched by a patriarchal society, which also recognized priestesses in its (previous) religion.
 
Thank you for your response. I read a portion of his book on-line. Unfortunately, I cannot cut and paste from it. I will get back with my comments later.
I had the same problem. PDF files are annoying in that respect but the book is copyright!🙂
 
You’re jumping to conclusions and condemning people, assuming they are not motivated by reason but by dishonourable motives. I could equally well attribute your refusal to consider an alternative theological view as dogmatic inflexibility which stems from intellectual pride but I believe in confining myself to the issues at stake.
You what? You are telling me that my acceptance of church teaching is a form of dogmatic inflexibilty which stems from my intellectual pride?

:rolleyes:
There is no point in repeating your statements and ignoring the three points I have made without refuting them.
The Pope has made it clear that all doubt regarding the matter is removed. **It doesn’t matter what you say, for the Pope has made his judgment. **
Now you are setting yourself up as an infallible judge - in disobedience of God’s command that we should not judge others. You are the one who needs to start praying - and praying in particular for the virtue of charity… You are the type of self-righteous person who alienates people from the Catholic Church by threatening them with the fires of hell for being a wilful heretic.
I am not an infallible judge.

However when I reprove you for your wrong ideas it is an act of mercy which stems from charity. Look it up.

Paul
 
PaulAndrew83;5239708 I could equally well attribute your refusal to consider an alternative theological view as dogmatic inflexibility which stems from intellectual pride but I believe in confining myself to the issues at stake. said:
Dogma, by its nature, is inflexible.

Flexible dogma is an oxymoron.

If it is flexible it is not dogma.

The Blessed Virgin was not maybe immaculately conceived or only immaculatley conceived on Sundays or in the month of May.

Heaven hell, and purgatory do not exist in only our imagination.

Eddie Mac
 
You what? You are telling me that my acceptance of church teaching is a form of dogmatic inflexibilty which stems from my intellectual pride?
Your intellectual pride and inflexibility is evident in your conviction that your interpretation of the Magisterium is superior to that of professors of theology who are acknowledged authorities on the subject.
The Pope has made it clear that all doubt regarding the matter is removed. **It doesn’t matter what you say, for the Pope has made his judgment. **
Do you really believe every statement by the Pope is infallible? If the Pope is not speaking ex cathedra and he says “The following statement is infallible” does that make his statement infallible?
However when I reprove you for your wrong ideas it is an act of mercy which stems from charity. Look it up.
You take it for granted that your ideas are right. It is an act of mercy to advise you to have more humility and charity - and abstain from calling people heretics. The Inquisition considered it an act of mercy to burn “heretics” like St Joan of Arc at the stake…
 
STUDY THIS !

APOSTOLIC LETTER OF JOHN PAUL II
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
  1. Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.
When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: “She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church.”(1)

But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.(2)
  1. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church “does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination.”(3) To these fundamental reasons the document adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ’s way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: “The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-thereafter always followed by the Church’s Tradition- Christ established things in this way.”(4)
In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: “In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behavior, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time.”(5)

In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God’s eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, “through the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,(6) the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord’s way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers(7) who would succeed them in their ministry.(8) Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles’ mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.(9)
  1. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.
The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, “the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church.”(10)

The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as in total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. “By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honor and gratitude for those women who-faithful to the Gospel-have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins and mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church’s faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel.”(11)
 
Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration Inter Insigniores recalls: “the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints.”(12)
  1. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

NUFF SAID. 👍
 
Realizing that this is an inter-RC debate, I’d just like to point out two things.

1:
Are you implying that men were created before women?
Actually, that is the case. Eve was created from one of Adam’s ribs.

2:
That men are superior to women?
Non-sequitur.
Superiority of man over woman does not follow from man being created first.
 
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
A question from an interested outsider 🙂
Does the highlighted and enlarged part of the quote make this ruling an ex cathedra-ruling?
 
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