Women in the Priesthood

[Mary_Gail_36]

Also something I was pondering, periodically various women attempt ordination,
Inevitably they are almost instantly excommunicated by Rome.

Rome consistently tells us this is not correct and not possible.

We won’t have female priests because we can’t.

It doesn’t matter what a few “theologians” might think, especially when they all seem to be from one website.

I am particularly saddened by the opinion of the professor from Fordham University, the same institution where the incredible Cardinal Avery Dulles resided. I can’t believe she is in the theology department. :nope:

 

[tee_eff_em]

Also something I was pondering, periodically various women attempt ordination,
Inevitably they are almost instantly excommunicated by Rome.

More correctly: Those involved in the attempted ordination of women are notified in advance that by such an attempt, they will separate themselves from the Church.

If they persist in following through with their intentions, the competent authority will officially recognize that state of separation.

The Church does not excommunicate anyone – People excommunicate themselves from the Church.

tee
Still sad that tonyrey will not answer a simple question

 

[Handsome_Danger]

Handsome Danger, I went to your blog and saw your entry on women priests. I followed the links to the news articles and was … appalled. Some of those women aren’t even celibate!

That’s just freaky. And when I saw those pictures my heart sank. There was just something creepy about all of it. I noticed also that those ordinations did not take place in a Catholic church. Gee. I wonder why.

“Creepy” is a good word. There is something to be said about the overwhelmingly unnatural feeling it has to it.

HD

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

More correctly: Those involved in the attempted ordination of women are notified in advance that by such an attempt, they will separate themselves from the Church.

If they persist in following through with their intentions, the competent authority will officially recognize that state of separation.

The Church does not excommunicate anyone – People excommunicate themselves from the Church.

tee
Still sad that tonyrey will not answer a simple question

Thank you for your clarification.

 

[simmslaw]

Sad to say that I think that this discussion has run its course. Some folks just can’t see the forest for the trees. When you have to argue that a definitive statement of dogma may not be definitive enough, you’re in shallow waters indeed, both intellectually and theologically, no matter what your training or number of degrees. This being said, for those who cannot or will not accept the definitive statement of the Church which precludes extending Holy Orders to women, I offer only my prayers that your hearts may soften that you may hear what is spoken rather than what you want to hear. The Church does not ordain women because it cannot, simply and plainly.

 

[Handsome_Danger]

Sad to say that I think that this discussion has run its course. Some folks just can’t see the forest for the trees. When you have to argue that a definitive statement of dogma may not be definitive enough, you’re in shallow waters indeed, both intellectually and theologically, no matter what your training or number of degrees. This being said, for those who cannot or will not accept the definitive statement of the Church which precludes extending Holy Orders to women, I offer only my prayers that your hearts may soften that you may hear what is spoken rather than what you want to hear. The Church does not ordain women because it cannot, simply and plainly.

Agreed. There’s little point in pressing it further.

HD

 

[tonyrey]

When you have to argue that a definitive statement of dogma may not be definitive enough, you’re in shallow waters indeed, both intellectually and theologically, no matter what your training or number of degrees.

On June 6 1997 at a general assembly of the Catholic Theological Society of America 216 out of 248 members voted “yes" to the resolution that “There are serious doubts regarding the nature of the authority of this teaching (namely, the teaching that the Church’s lack of authority to ordain women to the priesthood is a truth that has been infallibly taught and requires the definitive assent of the faithful) and its grounds in Tradition.There is serious, widespread disagreement on this question not only among theologians but also within the larger community of the Church.”

Francis A. Sullivan SJ, emeritus professor at the Gregorian University, Rome, the leading theological authority on the magisterium, has expressed strong disagreement against the claim of infallibility made by the Congregation for Doctrine. His main reasons were that the conditions for such an infallible teaching have not been met since there has been neither consultation with all the bishops nor with the Catholic faithful.
“The question whether a doctrine has been infallibly taught is not a matter of doctrine, but a matter of fact, which has to be ‘manifestly established’ (Canon 749 §3). Not only the Pope, but the whole body of Catholic bishops as well, must be proposing the same doctrine as one which the faithful are obliged to hold in a definitive way.”
Theological Studies, vol. 58, September 1997, pp. 509-515.

Elizabeth A. Johnson, professor of theology at Fordham University analyzes three reasons given by those who oppose women’s ordination:

1.The example of Jesus.
But Jesus did not ordain twelve men." Such an interpretation is an anachronism projected backward onto the Gospels in the light of later development."
Even if we suppose Jesus did ordain men it does not follow that women are to be excluded forever.The Spirit guides the Church to do many things that Jesus did not do.

1. Tradition.
   Pope Benedict himself has stated “Not every tradition that arises in the Church is a true celebration and keeping present of the mystery of Christ. There is a distorting, as well as a legitimate, tradition. Consequently, tradition must not be considered only affirmatively, but also critically”. A tradition appropriate in the past is often no longer appropriate in a new cultural context. It may be based on cultural attitudes rather than divine revelation. Antiquity is not the sole criterion of an authoritative tradition.
   “At one time it was official church teaching that it was unlawful for married couples to take pleasure in the marital act; that killing infidels was a way to salvation; that taking interest on a loan was forbidden; that slavery was permissible; that discrimination against Jewish people was legitimate; that biblical scholars could not use historical critical methods on Scripture texts.”

Studies of the tradition of a male priesthood reveal that it was based on the conviction that women are unsuitable because of the inferiority of their sex and their state of subjection in the social order, e.g. Apostolic Constitutions (Bk III, c 6)
St John Chrysostom argues from “the greatness of the tasks a bishop must perform” that women are unsuitable.

“For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.” (*1 Timothy *2,13-14). This was often used as the scriptural basis for the belief that women are inferior to men, more easily led astray and therefore unsuitable for ordination. It is now rejected by the Church.

1. The need for iconic resemblance.

This is the weakest argument because “women are icons of Christ, imago Christi, in every essential way. There is a natural resemblance between women and Jesus Christ in terms of a common humanity and participation in divine grace. To teach otherwise is a pernicious error that vitiates the power of baptism.The naive physicalism that reduces resembling Christ to being male is so deviant from Scripture and so theologically distorted as to be dangerous to the faith itself.”
*Disputed questions: authority, priesthood, women *by Elizabeth A. Johnson, Commonweal, vol…123, January 26 1996, pp. 8-10.

 

[Spirithound]

1.The example of Jesus.
But Jesus did not ordain twelve men." Such an interpretation is an anachronism projected backward onto the Gospels in the light of later development."

If Jesus did not ordain 12 men, then there is no Apostolic Succession.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

What are your theological qualifications and experience compared with the following?

1. 
   *]The Catholic Theological Society of America
   *]Nicholas Lash, professor of divinity, Cambridge University, UK
   *]Francis A. Sullivan SJ, emeritus professor Gregorian University Rome
   *]Elizabeth A. Johnson, C.S.J., professor of theology at Fordham University, New York
   *]Gisbert Greshake, professor of theology at the University of Freiburg, Germany
   *]Ann O’Hara Graff, professor of theology at Seattle University, Washington
   *]Peter Hünermann, professor of theology at Tübingen University, German
   
   It would be interesting to know how you would refute their analysis of the situation …

1. 
   I never claimed to be a theologian.
   
   Having read the writings of Aquinas and others and one who is trying to gain a full grasp of what the Church teaches and why, I am quite capable of rejecting those who teach heresy. I consider it along the same lines as I would pornography. I don’t have to read it to recognize it.
   
   Instead of frying your conscience on heresy why don’t you read the true Catholic Church Theologians. You need it worse than I do.
   
   I am not into philosophical reasoning on my salvation. Philosophy and heresy will not get me to heaven.
   
   I am on my way to Eucharistic Adoration with my lovely bride of 34 years. We will pray for Tony et al.
   
   Eddie Mac

 

[lesto]

just to tickle thoughts
virgin mother with all lovely titles in church
why was nt priest be given
wow

 

[PaulAndrew83]

On June 6 1997 at a general assembly of the Catholic Theological Society of America 216 out of 248 members voted “yes" to the resolution that “There are serious doubts regarding the nature of the authority of this teaching (namely, the teaching that the Church’s lack of authority to ordain women to the priesthood is a truth that has been infallibly taught and requires the definitive assent of the faithful) and its grounds in Tradition.There is serious, widespread disagreement on this question not only among theologians but also within the larger community of the Church.”

Francis A. Sullivan SJ, emeritus professor at the Gregorian University, Rome, the leading theological authority on the magisterium, has expressed strong disagreement against the claim of infallibility made by the Congregation for Doctrine. His main reasons were that the conditions for such an infallible teaching have not been met since there has been neither consultation with all the bishops nor with the Catholic faithful.
“The question whether a doctrine has been infallibly taught is not a matter of doctrine, but a matter of fact, which has to be ‘manifestly established’ (Canon 749 §3). Not only the Pope, but the whole body of Catholic bishops as well, must be proposing the same doctrine as one which the faithful are obliged to hold in a definitive way.”
Theological Studies, vol. 58, September 1997, pp. 509-515.

Elizabeth A. Johnson, professor of theology at Fordham University analyzes three reasons given by those who oppose women’s ordination:

1.The example of Jesus.
But Jesus did not ordain twelve men." Such an interpretation is an anachronism projected backward onto the Gospels in the light of later development."
Even if we suppose Jesus did ordain men it does not follow that women are to be excluded forever.The Spirit guides the Church to do many things that Jesus did not do.

1. Tradition.
   Pope Benedict himself has stated “Not every tradition that arises in the Church is a true celebration and keeping present of the mystery of Christ. There is a distorting, as well as a legitimate, tradition. Consequently, tradition must not be considered only affirmatively, but also critically”. A tradition appropriate in the past is often no longer appropriate in a new cultural context. It may be based on cultural attitudes rather than divine revelation. Antiquity is not the sole criterion of an authoritative tradition.
   “At one time it was official church teaching that it was unlawful for married couples to take pleasure in the marital act; that killing infidels was a way to salvation; that taking interest on a loan was forbidden; that slavery was permissible; that discrimination against Jewish people was legitimate; that biblical scholars could not use historical critical methods on Scripture texts.”

Studies of the tradition of a male priesthood reveal that it was based on the conviction that women are unsuitable because of the inferiority of their sex and their state of subjection in the social order, e.g. Apostolic Constitutions (Bk III, c 6)
St John Chrysostom argues from “the greatness of the tasks a bishop must perform” that women are unsuitable.

“For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.” (*1 Timothy *2,13-14). This was often used as the scriptural basis for the belief that women are inferior to men, more easily led astray and therefore unsuitable for ordination. It is now rejected by the Church.

1. The need for iconic resemblance.

This is the weakest argument because “women are icons of Christ, imago Christi, in every essential way. There is a natural resemblance between women and Jesus Christ in terms of a common humanity and participation in divine grace. To teach otherwise is a pernicious error that vitiates the power of baptism.The naive physicalism that reduces resembling Christ to being male is so deviant from Scripture and so theologically distorted as to be dangerous to the faith itself.”
*Disputed questions: authority, priesthood, women *by Elizabeth A. Johnson, Commonweal, vol…123, January 26 1996, pp. 8-10.

EDIT|: ALMOST EVRYTHING ASSERTED IN THIS POST IS HERESY.

What a load of rubbish.

Some of these claims are unhistorical as well.

Point 1. Is heresy.

Point 2. She mentions a few things that were not church teaching. She also shows that she has little or zero knowledge of the development of doctrine otherwise she would have pulled one. But then to be honest since all she is interested in is heresy why she doesn’t leave the Church is beyond me

Point 3. Shows how little her understanding of the Church teaching regarding this subject is.

As for the Catholic Theological society, it should be renamed the heretical society of heretical people who think they are theologians.

Paul

 

[tonyrey]

EDIT|: ALMOST EVRYTHING ASSERTED IN THIS POST IS HERESY
Paul

"Not only the Pope, but the whole body of Catholic bishops as well, must be proposing the same doctrine as one which the faithful are obliged to hold in a definitive way.”

 

[tonyrey]

If Jesus did not ordain 12 men, then there is no Apostolic Succession.

The Apostolic Succession is the unbroken line of Bishops who are the successors of the twelve Apostles. Ordination is performed by the Bishops but it is not restricted to Bishops.
All the disciples were present at the Last Supper, including Mary His Mother with the other women who had prepared the meal. It was a Paschal meal in which the whole family had to participate. The Gospels tell us that the women always took part in the meals with Jesus. It was to all the disciples who were present, not only men, that Jesus said:
“This is my body.
Eat of it all of you.
Do this as a memorial of me!
This is my blood.
Drink of it all of you!
Whenever you do this, it shall be a memorial of me!”

Deaconnesses certainly existed in the Catholic Church from the time of the Apostles.

"Concerning a deaconess, I, Bartholomew enjoin O Bishop, thou shalt lay thy hands upon her with all the Presbytery and the Deacons and the Deaconesses and thou shalt say: Eternal God, the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of man and woman, that didst fill with the Spirit Mary and Deborah, and Anna and Huldah, that didst not disdain that thine only begotten Son should be born of a woman; Thou that in the tabernacle of witness and in the temple didst appoint women guardians of thy holy gates: Do thou now look on this thy handmaid, who is appointed unto the office of a Deaconess and grant unto her the Holy Spirit, and cleanse her from all pollution of the flesh and of the spirit, that she may worthily accomplish the work committed unto her, to thy glory and the praise of thy Christ.(The Apostolic Constitutions).

Even today at the ceremony of their profession Carthusian nuns are presented with a stole and maniple by the Bishop.

It was only in later centuries that deaconnesses were abolished and the diaconate regarded as a stage of preparation for the priesthood. Male prejudice against women is evident in the use of the text:

“For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.” (1 Timothy 2,13-14).

This was constantly used as the scriptural basis for the common conviction that women were inferior to men, more easily led astray and therefore unsuitable for ordination.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The Apostolic Succession is the unbroken line of Bishops who are the successors of the twelve Apostles. Ordination is performed by the Bishops but it is not restricted to Bishops.
All the disciples were present at the Last Supper, including Mary His Mother with the other women who had prepared the meal. It was a Paschal meal in which the whole family had to participate. The Gospels tell us that the women always took part in the meals with Jesus. It was to all the disciples who were present, not only men, that Jesus said:
“This is my body.
Eat of it all of you.
Do this as a memorial of me!
This is my blood.
Drink of it all of you!
Whenever you do this, it shall be a memorial of me!”

Deaconnesses certainly existed in the Catholic Church from the time of the Apostles.

"Concerning a deaconess, I, Bartholomew enjoin O Bishop, thou shalt lay thy hands upon her with all the Presbytery and the Deacons and the Deaconesses and thou shalt say: Eternal God, the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of man and woman, that didst fill with the Spirit Mary and Deborah, and Anna and Huldah, that didst not disdain that thine only begotten Son should be born of a woman; Thou that in the tabernacle of witness and in the temple didst appoint women guardians of thy holy gates: Do thou now look on this thy handmaid, who is appointed unto the office of a Deaconess and grant unto her the Holy Spirit, and cleanse her from all pollution of the flesh and of the spirit, that she may worthily accomplish the work committed unto her, to thy glory and the praise of thy Christ.(The Apostolic Constitutions).

Even today at the ceremony of their profession Carthusian nuns are presented with a stole and maniple by the Bishop.

It was only in later centuries that deaconnesses were abolished and the diaconate regarded as a stage of preparation for the priesthood. Male prejudice against women is evident in the use of the text:

“For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.” (1 Timothy 2,13-14).

This was constantly used as the scriptural basis for the common conviction that women were inferior to men, more easily led astray and therefore unsuitable for ordination.

So, are you trying to state Mary was also ordained? Please provide some proof.

 

[charismatica]

let me just take a minute to add regarding your commentary on men and incarceration… while it may me true that these said men were in fact raised in single parent homes by their mothers… i believe that the criminal activities displayed would be more directly related and attributed to the fact their fathers were absent hence being left without a male counterpart to administer male-oriented discipline. …your commentary would lead many including myself to believe that you are in essence blaming the mother of improper supervision. it has always been my belief that a woman is not fully capable to rear a male child without a male- dominant figure… nonetheless your communication left me compelled to make my view known. i am a woman and i do believe that the church as (should the union in marriage between a man and his wife) be led by the male nonetheless the woman is in fact a necessary and vital aspect of the church of Jesus Christ on a final note the sisters that that devote thier lives to the church should be noted as the female counterpart of priest

God Bless You!

I think the reluctance of the Church from the first to ordain female priests could have a philosophical justification (in addition to the justifications mentioned in earlier posts) because a male priesthood would be more likely to affirm traditional values than would a female priesthood. If you don’t agree, imagine what the world would be like if it was mostly ruled by women (think Nancy Pelosi). If you still don’t agree, imagine what most families would be like if women were the head of the household. Children who now grow up in such homes are for the most part more likely to have less discipline in their lives and less fear of violating social norms, never mind the commandments. In the prisons I have visited, few prisoners were raised to manhood by their father, but rather by their mother.

This is not a put-down of mothers. In many ways mothers rule our hearts a good deal more than our fathers, and that is I think their most powerful role to play. But men also have a powerful role to play, and I think that is best played out in the fathers of the family and the parish “Fathers” who are stand-ins for God the Father and Jesus Christ.

 

[tonyrey]

So, are you trying to state Mary was also ordained? Please provide some proof.

I am not trying to state anything. I have simply stated the facts and leave you to draw your own conclusions. Jesus commanded all his disciples to commemorate the Last Supper. Since it was a Paschal meal the whole family was expected to be there. It is unthinkable that Jesus would have excluded His Mother from participating in His last meal with His disciples.

There is evidence in the New Testament of women who were given important offices in the Church: apostle (Junia), deacon (Phoebe), prophet (daughters of Philip), and founders and leaders of churches (Junia, Prisca, Lydia, Chloe). Leadership by women was an integral part of the first Christian communities but during the following three centuries the small assembly of believers became the religion of the Roman Empire. The Eucharistic feast celebrated by presbyters whom the local community elected and prayed over was transformed into the liturgical sacrifice of the Mass celebrated by priests appointed by the local bishop. The laying on of hands and the prayer of the community for its leaders became the rite of ordination. Women were deprived of their rights by men who were intent on making the Church conform to the norms of patriarchal culture. They lost their power to participate in decision-making in the Church because decision-making is tied to the sacrament of ordination. By Church law women are supposed to be equal members of the Church. In practice men are the leaders solely because they are men.The male priesthood reflects the cult of male domination.

“The consensus among theologians is that Jesus did not directly intend to found the institutional Church as we know it now. He certainly did not design the institutional structures in detail. The sacrament of Holy Orders has taken its present shape in response to cultural pressures in a time-bound environment.” (Kerkelijke Ambt, by E. Schillebeeckx, Overveen 1980 )

 

[PaulAndrew83]

"Not only the Pope, but the whole body of Catholic bishops as well, must be proposing the same doctrine as one which the faithful are obliged to hold in a definitive way.”

The Pope is infallible on his own. Ex Cathedra. This is a De Fide teaching of Vatican 1.

That is the nature of that doctrine. Just because when all the Bishops teach something in union with the Pope is ALSO infallible in no way suggests that this is the ONLY way church teaching can be infallible. Whichever guy says the above is poorly trained in logic.

Anyway start your case by proving the the statement of Pope JP2 is not infallible. As it is the matter if of the table.

Paul

 

[tonyrey]

The Pope is infallible on his own. Ex Cathedra. This is a De Fide teaching of Vatican 1.

That is the nature of that doctrine. Just because when all the Bishops teach something in union with the Pope is ALSO infallible in no way suggests that this is the ONLY way church teaching can be infallible. Whichever guy says the above is poorly trained in logic.

Anyway start your case by proving the the statement of Pope JP2 is not infallible. As it is the matter if of the table.

Paul

The Pope was not stating a doctrine ex cathedra.

 

[PaulAndrew83]

The Pope was not stating a doctrine ex cathedra.

I guess that you don’t understand what an infallible teaching is.

1. Pope makes it clear that he is acting as Pope.
2. He removes it from theological debate.
3. Makes it binding or definitive on the Church.

Lets see what he says yet again.
Pope:

**2.**Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself,1. in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that 3. this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis

Basically the problem is one of three things.

1. You don’t understand what an infallible statement is.
2. You don’t care that it is infallible.
3. Some other problem preventing you from understanding when you otherwise would.

Paul

 

[ryecroft]

I would like to interject a little something here. Some will say almost anything to say that these are not examples but I really believe they are. When the Church was begun and for several hundred year later, there are examples of women priests and even an example of one being an apostle(St. John Chrysostom even backs this one up ). St Gregory of Antioch in Oratio in Mulieres Unguentiferas XI, PG 88, 1863-64: "Portrays Jesus as appearing to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary at the tomb and saying to them: ‘Be the first teachers to the teachers. So that Peter who denied me learns that I can also choose women as apostles.’ " St. Paul in the Bible praised Phoebe the deacon for her leadership of the church of Cenchreae. (Romans 16:1-2) St. Paul also praises Junia and her husband Andronicus for their work as “outstanding apostles” (although I will say that there are just as many who believe Junia to be a woman as there are those who believe her to be a man). But even if you are able to debate away some of the examples from the Bible and of the writtings of some Saints and Popes there is also archaelogical evidence that women were indeed priests. Some examples can be found in writting on the tombs referring to “Leta Presbitera” and states: "Of blessed memory Leta the Presbyter lived 40 years, 8 months, 9 days whose husband prepared her burial she departed in peace the day before the Ides of May.” There is also in the catacomb of St. Januarus in Naples, Bitalia, a woman priest, is depicted attired in a red chasuble and celebrating the Eucharist.
There was someone on here who mentioned that if women were allowed to be priests he would no longer want to be Catholic (I’m paraphrasing)- if you were to stay Christian where would you go to - because almost every other Christian religion allows for women pastors even the Jewish(since the haskalah or enlightenment) now have women Rabbis-perhaps the Catholic Church needs to have it’s own enlightenment.

I’m not trying to go against the Church in this matter- but it does give me pause when there is evidence that something did occur and the Church will not even comment on the nature of this evidence.(It seems that anytime I hear something about women priests the only thing I hear from the Church is that women priests have never occured in the Catholic Church and there never will be any this closes the matter). The church has had practices that it abandoned later for various reasons - such as married Priests - but now it is allowing this to some extent - I actually know a married Priest - he was an Episcopal Priest that was married and changed to the Catholic Church I believe about 18 months after becoming an Episcopal Priest and was eagerly accepted. If the Church is willing to consider changing it’s views on one matter(which it really seems to be doing with the matter of married Priests and I don’t mean just with the ones that convert to Catholicism) , I really wish it would consider other matters. I accept what the Church says because I believe in God and that this His Church - I also believe that since the members of the church are human that they can make mistakes.

I guess one of the largest questions with regards to women priests are that God said He made uss in His image - I always believed this to mean that we have an intellect and a soul. If we are all made like God than shouldn’t we all be able to serve Him in the same way?

God Bless

Annie AKA Ryecroft