Women in the Priesthood

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No kidding.

And for the record, I am a woman. I also consider myself rather “liberal” too.

However, I don’t feel that women should be ordained as priests, I receive communion by mouth, do not like having EMHCs during communion, and use the word “priestess.”

Whoa. :eek:
You consider yourself “liberal” and then proceed to tell us how traditional you are! In what ways are you “liberal” ?

“I don’t feel that women should be ordained as priests”.“Feel” is the operative word.🙂
 
Are you proposing a kind of collective masculine consciousness?
A non sequitur.
How so? Priestess is a legitimate word. Is saying “waitress” derogatory also?
You know perfectly well that “priestess” has derogatory implications because of its association with pagan cults.
At any rate, if conscience were the ultimate authority, then you’re still left with the problem that you personally can’t ordain any women, and for the vast, vast, vast majority of bishops, it would contradict their consciences to ordain a woman.
So you are denying that conscience is the ultimate authority? That’s a very easy way out. Just obey blindly…

The question is not what I can do but whether it is right that the Church should continue to be dominated by men.
And the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. That sounds pretty masculine to me.
This becomes more and more fantastic! Let us have more details of the masculinity of God.
 
So you are denying that conscience is the ultimate authority? That’s a very easy way out. Just obey blindly…
No where in the Scriptures or in the Catechism do we read that conscience is the ultimate authority.

You seem to have a problem with the concept of obedience. Throughout the Scriptures, OT and NT, we see that the faith spoken about is an obedient faith. If you believe your faith is blind, then do you not realize you need more catechesis so that you’ll be more enlightened about your faith?

The *Catechism *explains that our moral decisions must be based on a well-formed conscience. I encourage you to read sections 1776-1802 and 2039 of the Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

We ARE taught that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Timothy 3:15) and other passages. Why do you want to be your own magisterium rather than honor the teaching authority of our Holy Mother Church, over which our Lord’s Advocate, the Holy Spirit, guides and protects?

As for your blindness, you can make a choice between remaining uninformed about the faith, or prayerfully becoming more knowledgeable about it.
…The question is not what I can do but whether it is right that the Church should continue to be dominated by men.
It’s sad that you only regard our priests as power-hungry.
 
tonyrey

I find it difficult to believe that you hold the beliefs you do and still call yourself catholic.
Church teaching trumps primacy of conscience any time, if you have difficulty with this then you’d be in good company in one of the other 30,000 odd Christian professions.
To be catholic means to submit to the teachings of the magesterium of the church as can be discerned from reading and studying the catechism and encyclicals.
Infallible pronouncements are meant to be adhered and consented to by all the faithful.
To deny the catholic belief that women priests are not an option for the church is to put yourself outside our catholic profession.
Gerry
 
In todays permissive society where everyone seems to think that he or she should be able to determine or interpret what was in Jesus’s mind, I would suggest that instead of stumbling about in the darkness, the first place to start on this subject is to read the Apostolic Letter of our late and much beloved Holy Father, Pope John Paul, the Great.

I live in an area where some of the bishops and some of the clergy have long supported the idea of ordaining women to the priesthood. It is the reason (not the reason of cost as is often raised etc.,) why the deaconate has not been introduced.

I have personally thought that ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS clearly detailed that the priestly ordination was reserved to men alone. Our late Holy Father laid out the detailed arguments that, based on the witness of Scripture and constant Tradition, the Church has no authority to confer priestly ordination on women.

Pax Vobiscum

Sean
 
Granted it’s not a two-page essay, but I find most people understand quickly when put in these terms…

Church = bride of Christ (feminine)
**Priest = in person of Christ (masculine), thus, **
Priest = married to Church

Therefore


**Female priest (feminine) married to bride of Christ (feminine) = ecclesial same sex marriage. **
While interesting, I kind of disagree here. I mean, the Blessed Virgin is also the Bride of Christ—as well as His Mother and we don’t marry our mothers 😃
 
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Spirithound:
Are you proposing a kind of collective masculine consciousness?
A non sequitur.
No it’s not. I’m trying to understand the mechanics behind which all, or even many men can resent women “taking their spots”
You know perfectly well that “priestess” has derogatory implications because of its association with pagan cults.
I don’t hold pagan priestesses in any less regard than I do any other woman in society (except perhaps my mum…but I hold her in higher regard, not everyone else lower 😉 ). Perhaps you are just nonplussed because you are faced with a word to which grammatical gender is proper, but at the same time can’t be used in our religion not because of negative implications but because of pagan implications. Perhaps this is the reason Jesus chose only men. Perhaps this is the reason we need to continue to ordain only men. We are a people set apart.
So you are denying that conscience is the ultimate authority? That’s a very easy way out. Just obey blindly…
Yes, I do deny that conscience is the ultimate authority. The Church’s Teaching, an institution nearly 2000 years old, is much wiser than me, a 24 year old man. Furthermore, you have ignored my point that your conscience is not in charge here. Are you placing your conscience above every bishop who has been part of the Catholic Church?
This becomes more and more fantastic! Let us have more details of the masculinity of God.
You need more? The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary.
 
While interesting, I kind of disagree here. I mean, the Blessed Virgin is also the Bride of Christ—as well as His Mother and we don’t marry our mothers 😃
The Blessed Virgin is usually called the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, not of Christ.
 
You consider yourself “liberal” and then proceed to tell us how traditional you are! In what ways are you “liberal” ?

“I don’t feel that women should be ordained as priests”.“Feel” is the operative word.🙂
I’m not going to bother going there with you. It’s pretty much what’s been said here as to why women should not be ordained as priests. To repeat what others have said here: It’s not about one’s “consciences,” which you seem to ignore, but about the Church’s teaching.

And by “liberal,” I mean my political views.
 
You consider yourself “liberal” and then proceed to tell us how traditional you are! In what ways are you “liberal” ?

“I don’t feel that women should be ordained as priests”.“Feel” is the operative word.🙂
Yet you continue to ignore my simple question to you, viz:
It is false to state that it is the only reason why I believe women should be admitted to the priesthood. The main reason is because I believe human sexuality is irrelevant to the consecration of the Body and Blood of Christ.
Why do you believe this? Who has taught you this?
Is, perhaps, “believe” the operative word?

tee
 
Unfortunately, there is a large misunderstanding both theologically and historically. Since meeting my wife while we were both doing a graduate work in Theology and Divinity, I can never see a theological reason nor a pastoral one to not ordain women. I recognize and understand the three major documents on women’s role in the church, yet it erases any dignity that a well educated, passionate woman, like my wife has, in the church.
I feel sad for the church because my wife, and many women I know like her, would be an incredible asset to the church. While I recognize everyone has roles according to the Church, she feels called to do much more than be a priest’s server.
I did not think it was that big of a deal until I met my wife who feels called to priesthood in a church that says you are not good enough.
 
Unfortunately, there is a large misunderstanding both theologically and historically. Since meeting my wife while we were both doing a graduate work in Theology and Divinity, I can never see a theological reason nor a pastoral one to not ordain women. I recognize and understand the three major documents on women’s role in the church, yet it erases any dignity that a well educated, passionate woman, like my wife has, in the church.
I feel sad for the church because my wife, and many women I know like her, would be an incredible asset to the church. While I recognize everyone has roles according to the Church, she feels called to do much more than be a priest’s server.
I did not think it was that big of a deal until I met my wife who feels called to priesthood in a church that says you are not good enough.
How is it that not being a priest limits her in being an asset to the Church? Am I not an asset to the Church because I’m not a priest?
 
Firstly, it is obvious that our conscience cannot be the ultimate arbiter of or authority on what is true. Weakened by sin, we are far too capable of lying to ourselves convincingly, such that to rely upon our conscience alone or in opposition to Church teaching would be catastrophic. Moreover, a conscience is not an absolute even unto itself. Logically, it cannot be the ultimate authority if it is itself subject to ignorance, lack of formation, incorrect or false formation, pride or impediment due to the influence of any number of sins or deficiencies. Secondly, each of us bears the burden of informing our conscience so as to conform to God’s will, not merely to justify an exercise of our own will. It is God who is the ultimate authority, and our ultimate responsibility in considering and contemplating His Church’s teaching on the ordination of women, or any teaching of His Church for that matter, is to inform our conscience so as to conform and not stand in opposition to that teaching. Doubtless this may be painful for some, but, in all charity, it may also be their cross to bear. God desires us to seek Him in humility; pride clouds our vision that we cannot see Him when he is present nor hear Him when He calls us. It is we who must soften our hearts, not the Church which must bend to our demands or the demands of a culture which simply reject any distinction between men and women.

As to the justification for maintaining the ordination of men, the mere fact that one sex is blessed by God by a vocation to the ministerial priesthood does not mean that that same vocation is unjustly denied to the other sex. Our creation as men and women was ordained by God before the beginning of time itself and to each of us is accorded the full dignity as a child of God which is our right. Neither sex is superior to the other and the Church denies not one iota of a woman’s dignity by not extending ordination to the ministerial priesthood beyond the bounds which Christ himself established. God, who is love, created man and woman in his image and likeness and could no more have created one to dominate the other than he would have created an absurdity such as the rock He himself could not lift.

Pope John Paul II declared the limits of the Church in the ordination of women:

“Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32), I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful” (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

There is no debate to be had here. Sadly, I have my doubts that some will be willing to accept this, to their own distraction and misery.
 
…yet it erases any dignity that a well educated, passionate woman, like my wife has, in the church…
:confused::confused:

The Church erases someone dignity? Where are you pulling that from? :confused::confused:

The Church states that men and women are created with equal dignity. 👍
 
I did not think it was that big of a deal until I met my wife who feels called to priesthood in a church that says you are not good enough.
As I stated in a prior post, God does not call individuals to a role that is not intended for them. If someone feels “called” to something then it is not for the purpose of doing the work of God. They are listening to their own self-centered desires.

I always felt called to drive NHRA super stockers or be a naval aviator. It ain’t happening.

A Catholic, knowing that the Church by the Holy Spirit (God, remember?) infallibly holds that women will not ever be ordained in the true Catholic Church and still insistinig that God is calling them is not a convincing argument.

Eddie Mac
 
Firstly, it is obvious that our conscience cannot be the ultimate arbiter of or authority on what is true. .
“In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged. Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths.” VATICAN II, Gaudium et spes §16.52

Catechism, 1782: Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. **He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters. **

“To replace the authority of the conscience as the ultimate voice of authority,** even if it be the pope or bishops**, would open up a huge number of problems… To relinquish one’s obligation to follow one’s conscience in favor of following the voice of an external authority would be making that authority into a false god.”

books.google.co.uk/books?id=o6JoLSuJZhQC&pg=PA112&lpg=PA112&dq=conscience+is+the+ultimate+authority&source=bl&ots=CO5PwpSGtC&sig=IfuRq9kyKOs9P3Z3_ioShQ6an-c&hl=en&ei=5IgSSoyTCdKrjAeXrIy-BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA112,M1

“A Morally Complex World” by Fr James T. Bretzke, SJ, Associate Professor of Theology and Religious studies at the University of San Francisco, one of whose books has won an award from the Catholic Press Association.

N.B. The magisterium has held opinions which were “ill-suited to their historical context and forgetful of the fact of progressive revelation”. Remember Galileo?
 
As I stated in a prior post, God does not call individuals to a role that is not intended for them. If someone feels “called” to something then it is not for the purpose of doing the work of God. They are listening to their own self-centered desires.
“In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged. Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths.” VATICAN II, Gaudium et spes §16.52

Catechism, 1782: Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

“To replace the authority of the conscience as the ultimate voice of authority, even if it be the pope or bishops, would open up a huge number of problems… To relinquish one’s obligation to follow one’s conscience in favor of following the voice of an external authority would be making that authority into a false god.”

books.google.co.uk/books?id=o…um=4#PPA112,M1

“A Morally Complex World” by Fr James T. Bretzke, SJ, Associate Professor of Theology and Religious studies at the University of San Francisco, one of whose books has won an award from the Catholic Press Association.
 
Unfortunately, there is a large misunderstanding both theologically and historically. Since meeting my wife while we were both doing a graduate work in Theology and Divinity, I can never see a theological reason nor a pastoral one to not ordain women. I recognize and understand the three major documents on women’s role in the church, yet it erases any dignity that a well educated, passionate woman, like my wife has, in the church.
I feel sad for the church because my wife, and many women I know like her, would be an incredible asset to the church. While I recognize everyone has roles according to the Church, she feels called to do much more than be a priest’s server.
I did not think it was that big of a deal until I met my wife who feels called to priesthood in a church that says you are not good enough.
You both have my deepest sympathy. Ignore the bigotry and hurtful remarks of self-righteous Catholics.
 
tonyrey

I find it difficult to believe that you hold the beliefs you do and still call yourself catholic.
Church teaching trumps primacy of conscience any time, if you have difficulty with this then you’d be in good company in one of the other 30,000 odd Christian professions.
To be catholic means to submit to the teachings of the magesterium of the church as can be discerned from reading and studying the catechism and encyclicals.
Infallible pronouncements are meant to be adhered and consented to by all the faithful.
To deny the catholic belief that women priests are not an option for the church is to put yourself outside our catholic profession.
Gerry
“In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged. Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths.” VATICAN II, Gaudium et spes §16.52

Catechism, 1782: Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.

“To replace the authority of the conscience as the ultimate voice of authority, even if it be the pope or bishops, would open up a huge number of problems… To relinquish one’s obligation to follow one’s conscience in favor of following the voice of an external authority would be making that authority into a false god.”

books.google.co.uk/books?id=o…um=4#PPA112,M1

“A Morally Complex World” by Fr James T. Bretzke, SJ, Associate Professor of Theology and Religious studies at the University of San Francisco, one of whose books has won an award from the Catholic Press Association.

N.B. The magisterium has held opinions which were “ill-suited to their historical context and forgetful of the fact of progressive revelation”. Remember Galileo?
 
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