Women Priests

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Women priest bothers me. The day a female priest walks into my parish is the day I’m walking out. But that won’t ever happen. What also bothers me is how people, mainly non-Catholics are always putting down our Church because we don’t ordain women priest. We are not being discriminatory, it’s our tradition, so I wish they would just let us be. This was on World News last week. Thought I share.

youtube.com/watch?v=vVkpybR5gww
 
Remember the Seven Last Words of the Church? “We never did it that way before.”
Code:
Catholicism has to think through the role of women without hysteria. There seems to be some evidence that there were deaconesses among early Christians. For example, Phoebe - see Roman 16:l, which may suggest that. Pliny the Younger wrote that he had tortured two women deaconess - a letter to the emperor in 211 AD. The Eastern Church seems to have had women deaconesses into the 12th century. Major Protestant denominations have women deaconesses - e. g., Methodists. Etc. 

 Many women (I have discovered) have been alienated by long lines of men in their vestments, most of them old, processing into major feast celebrations. I recall that the platform in the old Yankee Stadium was crowded with priests when Benedict XVI was there. Behind them sat four (as I recall) women who read scriptural passages. But the contrast in numbers and placement was jarring to some who feel that it isn't necessary to rigidly maintain traditions that are no longer valid in our changing world. 

  Rants against women clergy are harmful to the church. A serious consideration of how to give women a more responsible place in the church needs to receive careful attention. There are many thousands of Protestant women ministers now - e. g., about 10,000 among the 50,000 United Methodist clergy in the USA. Presbyterians, Episcopalians, the United Church of Christ, and others have about the same percentage. Some of them were former Catholics. Didn't Paul say that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female....?
 
Women priest bothers me. The day a female priest walks into my parish is the day I’m walking out. But that won’t ever happen. What also bothers me is how people, mainly non-Catholics are always putting down our Church because we don’t ordain women priest. We are not being discriminatory, it’s our tradition, so I wish they would just let us be. This was on World News last week. Thought I share.

youtube.com/watch?v=vVkpybR5gww
This video made me sick. But I thank you for posting it because it really shows how
bad things have gotten and how there are such grave misunderstandings promoted by the press about what the Church teaches. I wish equal time would be given to a faithful, well-spoken Bishop who could clear things up. People would be free to disagree w/ him (I’m speaking of non-CAtholics), but at least the truth of the matter would be aired.
 
Remember the Seven Last Words of the Church? “We never did it that way before.”
Code:
Catholicism has to think through the role of women without hysteria. There seems to be some evidence that there were deaconesses among early Christians. For example, Phoebe - see Roman 16:l, which may suggest that. Pliny the Younger wrote that he had tortured two women deaconess - a letter to the emperor in 211 AD. The Eastern Church seems to have had women deaconesses into the 12th century. Major Protestant denominations have women deaconesses - e. g., Methodists. Etc. 

 Many women (I have discovered) have been alienated by long lines of men in their vestments, most of them old, processing into major feast celebrations. I recall that the platform in the old Yankee Stadium was crowded with priests when Benedict XVI was there. Behind them sat four (as I recall) women who read scriptural passages. But the contrast in numbers and placement was jarring to some who feel that it isn't necessary to rigidly maintain traditions that are no longer valid in our changing world. 

  Rants against women clergy are harmful to the church. A serious consideration of how to give women a more responsible place in the church needs to receive careful attention. There are many thousands of Protestant women ministers now - e. g., about 10,000 among the 50,000 United Methodist clergy in the USA. Presbyterians, Episcopalians, the United Church of Christ, and others have about the same percentage. Some of them were former Catholics. Didn't Paul say that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female....?
All of these points have been address/answered ad nauseum. I suggest you study the issue in a fair and balanced manner, and read reliable sources. As far as Protestant women ministers go, they aren’t priests! Surely you know there is a difference.
 
Remember the Seven Last Words of the Church? “We never did it that way before.”
Code:
Catholicism has to think through the role of women without hysteria. There seems to be some evidence that there were deaconesses among early Christians. For example, Phoebe - see Roman 16:l, which may suggest that. Pliny the Younger wrote that he had tortured two women deaconess - a letter to the emperor in 211 AD. The Eastern Church seems to have had women deaconesses into the 12th century. Major Protestant denominations have women deaconesses - e. g., Methodists. Etc. 

 Many women (I have discovered) have been alienated by long lines of men in their vestments, most of them old, processing into major feast celebrations. I recall that the platform in the old Yankee Stadium was crowded with priests when Benedict XVI was there. Behind them sat four (as I recall) women who read scriptural passages. But the contrast in numbers and placement was jarring to some who feel that it isn't necessary to rigidly maintain traditions that are no longer valid in our changing world. 

  Rants against women clergy are harmful to the church. A serious consideration of how to give women a more responsible place in the church needs to receive careful attention. There are many thousands of Protestant women ministers now - e. g., about 10,000 among the 50,000 United Methodist clergy in the USA. Presbyterians, Episcopalians, the United Church of Christ, and others have about the same percentage. Some of them were former Catholics. Didn't Paul say that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female....?
Rants against women priests is NOT harmful to the Church. What is harmful is their insistence on ordination. This is blatatnt disobedience of canon law, and refusing to accept the authority of the Church as given it by Jesus. Also what happens in Protestant circles is irrelevant for the Catholic Church. Besides the Protestant women clergy are NOT priests.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem Totus Tuus Domini.
 
Remember the Seven Last Words of the Church? “We never did it that way before.”
Code:
Catholicism has to think through the role of women without hysteria. There seems to be some evidence that there were deaconesses among early Christians. For example, Phoebe - see Roman 16:l, which may suggest that. Pliny the Younger wrote that he had tortured two women deaconess - a letter to the emperor in 211 AD. The Eastern Church seems to have had women deaconesses into the 12th century. Major Protestant denominations have women deaconesses - e. g., Methodists. Etc.
Perhaps you didn’t read Javl’s post. He said:
"The Church’s reason for not ordaining women is based upon Christ’s and the Apostles teachings and therefore it cannot
 
Choy, be sure that they are in my prayers, but I still feel I am justified in my action. I’m not going to sit by and not defend the faith. Do not assume I am taking everything into my own hands when I do everything for God through God or that I don’t follow with prayer. You are right that they have taken the hardest hit of excommunication, but it goes back to my point that it doesn’t stop them from using the Catholic name. They should have NO ASSOCIATION with the Catholic name, even the use of Roman as if they are under the Bishop of Rome…it just upsets me so much :mad:😦 Now that I have spoken my mind by writing to them with a firm and serious message, I can only hope that the seeds I have thrown fall on fertil soil and flourish to reconciliation and union with the Church through the Holy Ghost…and if mine fail I’m sure others and especially the Church’s will have a positive effect on this organization.

As with other modern errors…Sacred Scripture still speaks to all of us today.

“For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.” (DRB - 2 Timothy 4:3-5)
 
Choy, be sure that they are in my prayers, but I still feel I am justified in my action. I’m not going to sit by and not defend the faith. Do not assume I am taking everything into my own hands when I do everything for God through God or that I don’t follow with prayer. You are right that they have taken the hardest hit of excommunication, but it goes back to my point that it doesn’t stop them from using the Catholic name. They should have NO ASSOCIATION with the Catholic name, even the use of Roman as if they are under the Bishop of Rome…it just upsets me so much :mad:😦 Now that I have spoken my mind by writing to them with a firm and serious message, I can only hope that the seeds I have thrown fall on fertil soil and flourish to reconciliation and union with the Church through the Holy Ghost…and if mine fail I’m sure others and especially the Church’s will have a positive effect on this organization.

As with other modern errors…Sacred Scripture still speaks to all of us today.

“For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.” (DRB - 2 Timothy 4:3-5)
my apologies. i’m not trying to say you are taking things into your own hands. my point was, God is the one who answers prayers. if we are willing cooperators, then we will be moved by God’s will, not by our own will. that is why i said we should pray instead, because by prayer we let God decide on what must be done, then He will move us or others who are the right people and the willing people to follow His will. by saying that we should become answers to prayers doesn’t mean we should act on our own, but according to the will of God. and again how do we know what God’s will is? it is through prayer, where we open ourselves to God’s will and tell him we are willing cooperators to His will.

people trying to make an association with our Church is not new. sedevacantists hide behind the mask of Traditional Catholicism, but they don’t even acknowledge today’s Church hierarchy. there are others like Old Catholics and the Holy Catholic Charismatic Church who are also schismatics but still claim that they are the rightful continuation of the Catholic faith

sometimes pointing one’s errors is not the best way to make one realize they are in error. what these women “priests” have done is they let pride mix into their genuine desire to serve, and so they get a distorted view of what it is to serve. they think that priesthood is a position of power where they as women by virture of gender equality are entitled to. that is pride. and telling them they are wrong will only hurt their pride, which will make them hold on to their false beliefs even more. men and women have equal dignity, but the roles are different. in a perfect world, we would see past this pride and see that men and women are different, but that this difference doesn’t mean one is better than the other. i have an infant son now and both my wife and my son are very close. i love my son but i know i’m missing something. my wife has a different appreciation of our son because she carried him in her womb from when he was a tiny single cell to a baby ready for the world. not to mention all the other things she went through during pregnancy. my son also sees her differently, because of the same affinity, and also the time they spend together especially with breastfeeding, something i cannot provide. but does this make me a lesser parent than my wife? of course not. sometimes, i may not help but feel that way, but thats pride. i can nourish his life in a different way to make him more able to survive in this world.

anyway, i wrote too much. my point is, men and women have equal dignity, but each is distinct from one another. there are things men can do and women cannot. there are things women can do and men cannot. that doesn’t take away anything from the dignity of a person. their eyes should be opened to that truth and that is what we should pray for
 
I believe it was one of the Old Catholic Bishops. They do have Apostolic Succession unfortunately. They however are in schism, and obviously heresy.

The Bishop ordained a female (I think from South Africa) to the deaconate, priesthood, and then as a bishop. She took it from there and we now have 100 so-called women “priests” in America.
Women are invalid matter for presbyteral (priestly) ordination.

Those women might be validly (but highly illicitly) deaconesses, but they invalidly attempt ordination those bishops who lay hands to ordain a woman a presbyter.

And since a bishop is high priest, a woman is invalid matter for ordination to bishop, as well.

So in the end, that one who thinks she’s a bishop is maybe a deaconess, and certainly has no apostolic succession as a bishop*, and so any she “ordained” were not, in fact, validly ordained because she’s not a valid bishop.

*At least by the Catholic Church’s view. The Old Catholics seem to accept women as priests and even bishops, so by the OC view, they are.
 
Just because a Bishop is old or “traditional,” that does not make him immune from doing wrong.

It is important for Catholics to realize that a small group of people have a strong commitment to bringing up this issue over and over and over again. Including here.

They believe that if it is repeated enough, they might gain some sympathy, even from a few Catholics.

Know the truth and stand firm against vain imaginings.

God bless,
Ed
 
Women priest bothers me. The day a female priest walks into my parish is the day I’m walking out. But that won’t ever happen. What also bothers me is how people, mainly non-Catholics are always putting down our Church because we don’t ordain women priest. We are not being discriminatory, it’s our tradition, so I wish they would just let us be. This was on World News last week. Thought I share.

youtube.com/watch?v=vVkpybR5gww
Ugh, that video was just nasty to watch. And of course, at the end they had to stick in a comment about how the Church missed an opportunity to move past controversy. Really, the bias here was incredibly obvious.

Also, does anyone find it unnerving that these women claim to reject their excommunication, as if they could do such a thing? How does one reject an excommunication? It isn’t exactly something you can just say no to.

One thing I am curious about, is how do these women want to be addressed? Do they want the title of “mother”? Or is there some other title that they prefer?
 
Just because a Bishop is old or “traditional,” that does not make him immune from doing wrong.

God bless,
Ed
“Old Catholic” refers specifically to a schismatic church that left over the declarations of Vatican I… they ceased being “traditional” well before Vatican II. Old Catholic is a sure sign of heterodoxy and heteropraxis.
 
So, I have been having a bit of an email discussion with one of these women, and here is a response that she gave. It shows just how twisted their views of the Church and history are.

*Church history is not all that simple. What you - and very sadly- the church called “heretics” was simply different people’s ways of understanding God. The gospels that we know were not uniform all over the ancient world. The canon was not developed until the end of the 2nd century and even then there was controversy. Many people did not accept the Gospel of John. When Christianity flourished all over the Mediterranean, different apostles taught different things with different understandings. So people had different ways of understanding their faith. They weren’t wrong, they were just different. JOhn, if your read scripture, had a VERY different understanding of Jesus than did the writers of the other three gospels.

Then, Ignatius of Antioch decided that everyone had to believe the same thing. But of course, communication being what it was, sometimes it took decades for people to get the message. You should read his “Letter to the Magnesians.” It sets the stage for a great deal of dissension.

As for Jesus allegedly “choosing” 12 men, again, if you read scripture, that number is a motif following upon the 12 tribes of Israel. Only one of them, Peter, ever gets mentioned again. The rest are lost to history or represented in the non-canonical gospels. If you read Romans, Junia is listed as an apostle and of course, Paul calls himself an apostle. So, apostleship had greater meaning than the one we currently use.

And Jesus most certainly did choose Mary Magdalene to be an apostle, She was the first person commissioned to preach the good news. The Samaritan woman was also an apostle. She converted an entire city after meeting Jesus.

Church history is sadly, a history of misogyny. Read the quotes from those we call “church fathers.” Think about what it means when one adult says to another, “Shut up, I don’t want to hear you” Think what it means for women’s ordination to be compared with pedophilia and not see that as anti-woman. I’ve been told that I excommunicated myself. I’ve been barred from the sacraments, can’t be buried in a catholic cemetery. Pedophiles, all men, have not been excommunicated, can receive the sacraments and can be buried in a catholic cemetery. The sexual abuse of children is a crime against humanity. Sexual abuse destroys people. My ordination has been a source of joy not only for me, but for my community where we worship God as a community of equals.

Perhaps we need to follow Jesus’ message of love, upon which we will be judged, and not worry so much about who is right. Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found. Brought here together by Christ’s love, by love are we thus bound.

Christ is not present in excommunication or in anyone who declares another a heretic. *

I think the claim that Mary Magdalene is an apostle is the most horrifying. I mean…that is just such a blatant twisting of the truth. It was always fairly clearly known who the apostles were. Ideas that Mary Magdalene is an apostle has never been around in the last 2000 years, until apparently women such as this group has come around.

Another absurdity is that they seem to be supporting theological relativism. At what point did Jesus leave things up to personal preference and interpretation? The amount of interpretive gymnastics going on here is absurd.
 
. . .

I think the claim that Mary Magdalene is an apostle is the most horrifying. I mean…that is just such a blatant twisting of the truth. It was always fairly clearly known who the apostles were. Ideas that Mary Magdalene is an apostle has never been around in the last 2000 years, until apparently women such as this group has come around.

Another absurdity is that they seem to be supporting theological relativism. At what point did Jesus leave things up to personal preference and interpretation? The amount of interpretive gymnastics going on here is absurd.
This is downright looney:
What you - and very sadly- the church called “heretics” was simply different people’s ways of understanding God.
So, I guess St. Athanasius should have ignored - or, better yet, embraced - those dear old Arians. :hypno:
 
So, I guess St. Athanasius should have ignored - or, better yet, embraced - those dear old Arians. :hypno:
Indeed. And St. Augustine should have been much nice to those poor Manicheans. How dare he question their different understanding of God, which is that Jesus is a phantom, and that holy men can exhale God by eating.
 
** Biedrik/B
Code:
 Interesting post. Some of the arguments made by women who favor female ordination sound legitimate to me. Not all of them, certainly. I do think there is evidence, even in the Bible, that there may have been a female deaconness or two among the earliest Christians. Phoebe? 

 I know it sounds rash, but let me make two predictions. These relate to the distant future, maybe 100 years away, after we are in paradise - well, hopefully.

 1. The Catholic Church will permit married priests, at least in the way that the Eastern Orthodox Church does. After all, St. Peter had a mother-in-law! This will be such a healthy move forward even though it will also bring new challenges. No, two (and more) cannot live as cheaply as one. Etc. But priests will be more numerous, most of them happier, more knowledgeable about the problems of real life, better counselors, and much more.

 2. Women will become permenant Deacons within Catholicism. Actually, women have worked with total unselfishness for centuries within the church, while the priests have received all the esteem and often adulation. That will change because women will force the change. Whether or not they ever become full priests - ???  Paul did say something about in Christ their is neither male nor female. The Protestants are ordaining thousands of women, including bishops, and they don't seem to have a clergy shortage. 

 No bets. I don't gamble.**
 
** Biedrik**
  1. Why will priests be more numerous? You really think that the celibate is what scares men away? We have had it for 1000 years, and we had abundances of priests in the past. The vows of celibacy have nothing to do with it.
  2. Where do you get this assumption? You just seem to be…wishfully thinking. I do not see why the Church would suddenly feel like doing this. As for people in Christ being neither male nor female, I think what he said was that the Church is for, and it is. Just because ordination is for men, does not mean that the Church does not include women. Being in the Church does not make a man able to do what a woman can do (bear children), and it does not make a woman capable of doing things that only men can do.
And so what if Protestants are ordaining women? You may notice that many of them are now considering Catholicism because of this. More and more Anglicans are coming to the Catholic Church. These churches that ordain women will not last.

Also, where do you get the idea that priests get all the respect in the Church? Do I have to point out the enormous amount of female saints? Look at Mother Theresa, one of the most famous Catholics of the last century. She was a woman. Mary, a woman, is one of the most important and loved figures in the Church. I mean seriously, the list of highly appreciated and respected women in the Church can go on and on. I do not know where you got the idea that only priests get respect.
 
Biedrik
Code:
 1. I think priests will be more numerous because of a normal God-given impulse of man to have an intimate mate, children, and other benefits of marriage. Years ago, I recall how Catholic families (at least French-Canadian ones with which I was most acquainted) would have 10, 12, and even more children. The parents often would encourage a son to be a priest and/or a daughter a nun. Today families usually have 2-3 children, and the average parent isn't as eager to see their children becomes celibate and rule out possible grandkids. 

 The world also has changed radically in other ways that make the priesthood seem less attractive. I know several priests in this area who left to marry. One actually married the principal of the parochial school of his parish. The whole concept of living a celibate life, often alone in a rectory, is forbidding to many. There are at least two ministers in this vicinity who were former priests, and several other ministers who are ex-Catholics.

  2. It is my memory - and I go back decades - that the nuns in my home village were very much run by the priests, plus the Mother Superior, I suppose. But there was an obvious deference to the priests. The nuns hardly could enter the high altar except to clean, etc. The nuns taught, but when a priest came in the students all were trained to rise immediately and say "Good morning, Father whomever." You never heard about nuns with authority outside the convent and classroom. It is true that many nuns now live in the secular world, which only makes them more independent - and sometimes more rebellious.

  Awhile ago I went to a dinner held to thank donors to a Catholic college and happened to sit by a nun. She was quite clear in her conversation. She saw the 'hierarchy' as a big problem and obviously resented the lack of authority and appreciation of nuns and other women within the church. 

   Yes, there are women saints, beginning with Mary. But when I check them over 90% or more seem to have been virgins rather than mothers who devote their lives to families. Everybody admires Mother Theresa, of course, including me. However, after reading of her 'dark years' in a spiritual desert I sometimes wonder about the sainthood thing. Plus I'm not altogether convinced that saints either perform miracles or intercede with Christ to perform miracles. Strikes me as a somewhat dubious concept.

   One of the administrative leaders at a large church near here hoped the church would give women greater voice. When this didn't happen, she became an Episcopalian and is now a priest in that denomination. Yes, some Anglicans are likely to become Catholic under the new arrangement Benedict XVI announced. But in this area the Protestant churches are full of ex-Catholics. This hasn't been helped at all by continual scandals that seem to emerge. One priest was finally located - he had disappeared after embezzling over $1.3 million from parish funds, claimed to be ill and went to New York to get treatment, instead had 'male escorts' and stayed and ate at the best places, etc. Another has been accused of molesting an altar boy. I had met this last one some years back as he served a church in this city. These two scandals have broken out within the past two weeks.  

   As you can probably tell by now, I am having serious difficulty with the church. I am more and more inclined to think that God may not care whether we belong to a Catholic or some other church as long as we love God and one another. Isn't that the response he gave to the lawyer who asked what he must do to inherit eternal life? Nothing about a church or a creed or even a Bible. He topped that off with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

 One final thing. When I was at Yankee Stadium to see Benedict XVI in 2008, it was interesting that the stage was filled with vestment-clad priests. Behind them sat, as I recall, four women, on the back row, set apart, who were readers. That spoke a volume to anyone who noticed.

  I love what the Catholic Church does in feeding the hungry, educating the untutored, healing the sick, etc. It's other stuff that troubles me. 

Keep happy and healthy. God bless all of his children, whatever their creed, color or country.
 
Women are invalid matter for presbyteral (priestly) ordination.

Those women might be validly (but highly illicitly) deaconesses, but they invalidly attempt ordination those bishops who lay hands to ordain a woman a presbyter.

And since a bishop is high priest, a woman is invalid matter for ordination to bishop, as well.

So in the end, that one who thinks she’s a bishop is maybe a deaconess, and certainly has no apostolic succession as a bishop*, and so any she “ordained” were not, in fact, validly ordained because she’s not a valid bishop.

*At least by the Catholic Church’s view. The Old Catholics seem to accept women as priests and even bishops, so by the OC view, they are.
It should be noted that the Old Catholic Church is no longer schismatic but heretical. Therefore, as such, I think that they no longer have the right to Apostolic succession.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Roy5:

It’s sad when a priest violates his vows of priesthood. These vows are promises to God. In making these vows he does so willingly knowing the implications. No one has forced him.

Priestly celibacy in the western Church is a discipline and it also is voluntary. If a priest wants to marry then he should consider the priesthood in one of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Nuns are sub-servient only to the Pope and not to any priest. They do have quite a bit of authority given them by the Church although they should defer to the diocesan Bishop. The nuns you commented on were probably reacting out of respect and not authority. Also that nun you mentioned who complained at the dinner probably never bothered to investigate the eclisiastical and canon laws of the Church. She should do so and stop her complaining. All this has occured since Vatican II.

To me, when a priest or nun violates his/her vows it is a slap to the face of God. Rather than submit, the priest or nun would rather satisfy his/her personal desire(s) or ambition(s). When the priest is ordained and the nun consecrated, they are making the supreme sacrifice that a human can make…devoting their lives entirely to God. If neither can do this then they should have chosen a different way of serving Him. Those that honor their vows, and not leave to play Church, reap huge rewards in heaven.

I am sorry you are having troubles. Please stay within the Catholic Church for only in The Church can you find the truth, peace and Joy. I know for i too went through my period of doubt(s). Pray to the Holy Spirit for help and guidance for He will help and guide you as He has done for me. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem

P.S. I should mention that there is a great influx of men for the priesthood for the Tridentine Mass. Also many present seminarians and current priests are learning to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. Praise God!
 
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