Women with sexy eyes forced to cover up

[Leegal]

Does Morocco require head covering by law?

I’m not sure. In that case it may be a matter of choice and/or respect. Not taking any chances though.

I know Morocco to be, at present, one of the more enlightened states – heavy French influence. I know they are not a theocracy, so they haven’t moved into crazy yet.

But their proximity to Libya, and all the unrest as a result of the Arab Spring, puts Morocco in danger of this unrest as it spreads.

While Morocco is presently stable (or appears to be; I’ve heard nothing but fear that this could spread), I could not have predicted that Egypt would fall either. I’m concerned. So, far, it appears that the concentration is in Syria (and Yemen). It is a matter of time if this spreads to Morocco or not.

 

[iamrefreshed]

No different to Christianity then in that respect .

Correct. Both Islam and Christianity require women to cover their hair at times. That makes it religious laws for both.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I’m not sure. In that case it may be a matter of choice and/or respect. Not taking any chances though.

I know Morocco to be, at present, one of the more enlightened states – heavy French influence. I know they are not a theocracy, so they haven’t moved into crazy yet.

But their proximity to Libya, and all the unrest as a result of the Arab Spring, puts Morocco in danger of this unrest as it spreads.

While Morocco is presently stable (or appears to be; I’ve heard nothing but fear that this could spread), I could not have predicted that Egypt would fall either. I’m concerned. So, far, it appears that the concentration is in Syria (and Yemen). It is a matter of time if this spreads to Morocco or not.

Because of course, the only reason they are “enlightened” in your view, is because of the French influence (which, as an English woman, I must say must be erroneous by default ). Without any Western involvement they would be living in the dark ages, those naughty Muslims. I thought I as the British here is the one who must have the colonial attitude!

You couldn’t have predicted that Egypt would fall? They were the first who started the Arab Spring! Were you watching the news?!

 

[LemonAndLime]

Correct. Both Islam and Christianity require women to cover their hair at times. That makes it religious laws for both.

I said Islam and Christianity are the same because, as you said, different groups of people who say they are the same religion can read the Quran/Bible and interpret it as they want in respect of modesty.

Now, regarding covering heads for women, you’re confusing 2 different laws here. Modesty when worshipping and on a day-to-day level - 2 different issues. To make it simpler -

Women should cover at all times- Many Muslims and some Christians.

Women should cover only when praying, and don’t needs to at all times, but may if they want to as a private devotion- All Muslims and some Christians.

Women do not need to cover at any time- Christians. Possible there are some very liberal Muslims who do not have this rule at home, but in a Mosque it is mandatory for a woman to cover.

So, for some Muslims women need to cover at all times, and for others only during worship/prayer. It depends how you interpret the Qur’an, the culture of the area (cultural ideas of modesty) and personal/private devotions. Here in the UK some Muslim women choose to wear the hijab (everything covered but their eyes) who were born and brought up here, often against their Muslim familys advice.

 

[vz71]

No actually it is not. There is nothing in the Qur’an which says that a Muslim women must cover her hair at all times, so it is cultural, not religion. I had Muslim friends growing up who only covered their hair when they prayed, and some who covered all the time.

Unlike the Christian religions that trace their laws to scripture, Muslim religious laws are not necessarily traceable to the Qur’an.
Any Imam can issue a binding Fatwa, and make a religious law.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Unlike the Christian religions that trace their laws to scripture, Muslim religious laws are not necessarily traceable to the Qur’an.
Any Imam can issue a binding Fatwa, and make a religious law.

An Imam can’t make any law they want. They have to be able to justify it by existing Islamic law/information from the Quran.

Let’s look at the Catholic teaching on contraception. You’re not going to find anything in Scripture directly about the pill, so we have to look at what advice we have in the Bible and then a decision is made on what the teaching will be. A similar thing happens with Islamic laws, they have to be justified by what they have in the Quran.

Of course, just like with the Bible/Christianity these are open to interpretation, hence why we have very different Christian churches and why there is a variance with Muslims as well.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I said Islam and Christianity are the same because, as you said, different groups of people who say they are the same religion can read the Quran/Bible and interpret it as they want in respect of modesty.

Now, regarding covering heads for women, you’re confusing 2 different laws here. Modesty when worshipping and on a day-to-day level - 2 different issues. To make it simpler -

Women should cover at all times- Many Muslims and some Christians.

Women should cover only when praying, and don’t needs to at all times, but may if they want to as a private devotion- All Muslims and some Christians.

Women do not need to cover at any time- Christians. Possible there are some very liberal Muslims who do not have this rule at home, but in a Mosque it is mandatory for a woman to cover.

I pointed out interpreting to show you that they are indeed religious laws.

Cultural would be the act of following them or not.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I pointed out interpreting to show you that they are indeed religious laws.

Cultural would be the act of following them or not.

I can see what you’re saying, but as I see it a religious law would be something that would be in a Holy book that everyone agrees is a basic tenant of the faith, like for example the Ten commandments.

A law rooted in religion yet varies in each country/culture isn’t a religious law as its based on cultural/individual views of faith. For example, while you could argue that mandatory headcovering is a religious law, it’s not uniform across all Muslim countries and all Muslims so it is more of a cultural requirement. If it was a religious law, that related to their religion (Islam) then I would expect to see it mandatory and uniformally recognised everywhere. But it isn’t, so its cultural.

A good example - a religious law among Catholics might be, for example, to go to confession at least once a year. However a cultural law might be acceptable dress while at Mass.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

When the women of Saudi Arabia get tired of this treatment they will put an end to it.

How?
They live under a government that will put them to death with little hesitation.
And in a society where their husbands, fathers, and other male relatives have the effective right to do the same.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I said Islam and Christianity are the same because, as you said, different groups of people who say they are the same religion can read the Quran/Bible and interpret it as they want in respect of modesty.

Now, regarding covering heads for women, you’re confusing 2 different laws here. Modesty when worshipping and on a day-to-day level - 2 different issues. To make it simpler -

Women should cover at all times- Many Muslims and some Christians.

Women should cover only when praying, and don’t needs to at all times, but may if they want to as a private devotion- All Muslims and some Christians.

Women do not need to cover at any time- Christians. Possible there are some very liberal Muslims who do not have this rule at home, but in a Mosque it is mandatory for a woman to cover.

So, for some Muslims women need to cover at all times, and for others only during worship/prayer. It depends how you interpret the Qur’an, the culture of the area (cultural ideas of modesty) and personal/private devotions. Here in the UK some Muslim women choose to wear the hijab (everything covered but their eyes) who were born and brought up here, often against their Muslim familys advice.

I don’t think you really appreciate how nasty Islam often is in practice.
In Egypt they perform the most invasive and destructive form of Female Genital Mutilation on the majority of girls (where the vagina is literally sewn shut after all the outer parts are cut off)

 

[Leegal]

Because of course, the only reason they are “enlightened” in your view, is because of the French influence (which, as an English woman, I must say must be erroneous by default ). Without any Western involvement they would be living in the dark ages, those naughty Muslims. I thought I as the British here is the one who must have the colonial attitude!

You couldn’t have predicted that Egypt would fall? They were the first who started the Arab Spring! Were you watching the news?!

You seem to like to read more in my posts. You did this before in an earlier post. I won’t play your game.

Before any hint of what was to come, I could not have predicted that the Arab Spring would happen at all, or where it would originate.

If it was not obvious, you might try to be a bit more discerning before you reply. Oh, and as you say “tough.”

 

[LemonAndLime]

I don’t think you really appreciate how nasty Islam often is in practice.
In Egypt they perform the most invasive and destructive form of Female Genital Mutilation on the majority of girls (where the vagina is literally sewn shut after all the outer parts are cut off)

I don’t think you can strictly call that an Islamic practice, as it occurs in parts of Africa and has done for at least hundreds of years (and has been outlawed since many countries became majority Muslim, yet still continues.) But yes, it does occur in Muslim countries by people who are practicing Muslims and it is a horrible and disgusting thing. Is it really the majority of women in Egypt?

 

[iamrefreshed]

How?
They live under a government that will put them to death with little hesitation.
And in a society where their husbands, fathers, and other male relatives have the effective right to do the same.

So you believe every woman in Saudi Arabia lives in 24 hour fear of their husbands?

Are you saying every man in Saudi Arabia is some sort of over-sexed monster?

That husbands and wives don’t love eachother?

What happened to the thought that only a very small minority of Muslims are fanatic and the majority are just like us and laugh, love and just want to live peaceably?

 

[LemonAndLime]

You seem to like to read more in my posts. You did this before in an earlier post. I won’t play your game.

Game? No game. I just don’t think you understand my sense of humour or that people are perfectly entitled to read between the lines.

Before any hint of what was to come, I could not have predicted that the Arab Spring would happen at all, or where it would originate.

So, before any hint of what was going to happen came about, you couldn’t have predicted it. Well, I think that’s the same for everybody to be honest.

If it was not obvious, you might try to be a bit more discerning before you reply. Oh, and as you say “tough.”

Discerning? I thought you said I wasn’t to read between the lines in posts? I’m getting awfully confused.

 

[LemonAndLime]

So you believe every woman in Saudi Arabia lives in 24 hour fear of their husbands?

Where did AngryAtheist suggest that? It’s a basic fact that in Saudi Arabia a man has a great deal more power over the lives of women related to him than those women do over themselves.

Are you saying every man in Saudi Arabia is some sort of over-sexed monster?

Who mentioned sex?

That husbands and wives don’t love eachother?

Considering most marriages are arranged and the couple are not allowed alone together (or even to meet each other at all), love comes after marriage, or not at all. Again, not sure where this came from either.

What happened to the thought that only a very small minority of Muslims are fanatic and the majority are just like us and laugh, love and just want to live peaceably?

Aha! I see what you’re doing here. But no, Muslims cannot be painted with the same brush.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Aha! I see what you’re doing here.

What’s that?

 

[LemonAndLime]

What’s that?

Trying to make a point about the % of Muslims who are not peaceful, just like us, etc. Especially as I’m not sure how your last post was a reply to AngryAtheist’s.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Trying to make a point about the % of Muslims who are not peaceful, just like us, etc. Especially as I’m not sure how your last post was a reply to AngryAtheist’s.

Angry Athiest said women live under the threat of death from the government and their male relatives.

If the majority of Muslims are peaceful then they need to remove that threat.

If you need clarification of my thoughts it’s OK to just ask.

 

[Darryl1958]

So you believe every woman in Saudi Arabia lives in 24 hour fear of their husbands?

Are you saying every man in Saudi Arabia is some sort of over-sexed monster?

That husbands and wives don’t love eachother?

What happened to the thought that only a very small minority of Muslims are fanatic and the majority are just like us and laugh, love and just want to live peaceably?

First, i would agree with you that any social change in SA, if it happens at all, will happen through women.
Second, I don’t think that western feminism would play much of a role in that change, for the conflict model of the Marxist school has made men the enemy in Western feminism, the bourgoise oppressor of the female proletariat. By and large, Muslim women reject this misandry, and for good reason of course. Western feminism has very little to teach them in this regard. Their husband is not the enemy, and having men blinded or led around by mothers has not much appeal. Muslim women seem to very much have the understanding that whatever demeans their husband demeans themselves and their family as well.
This has been my observation.

As for the men, it is a mixed bag. Certainly many have now spent time in western universities and can understand well enough the stimulation involved in having women as social and intellectual equals. Recall as well though that Qutb of Muslim Brotherhood fame had a similar history, and was very disturbed by he idea of female liberty. No doubt his own program of a return to tradtitional oppression of women has been very popular in Muslim lands, and a lot of Saudi men would likewise be very uncomfortable with the idea of no longer being king of their castle, being served as the lioness serves the lion. Many surmise in fact, that the idea of having such free women in their midst in the state of Israel is the main hatred of Israel. Sex is primal like that for most men, even as it is politcally incorrect to say so in our feminized world.
But yea, if there will be change, it will be instigated by the women of the area, and it won’t come easy. Both men and women there reject the western feminist model, albeit for diffrent reason. But women by and large have the bigger reason to detest the system, which is becoming more oppressive rather than less, as much as a reaction against the western system than a belief in tradtional Islam itself.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I don’t think you can strictly call that an Islamic practice, as it occurs in parts of Africa and has done for at least hundreds of years (and has been outlawed since many countries became majority Muslim, yet still continues.) But yes, it does occur in Muslim countries by people who are practicing Muslims and it is a horrible and disgusting thing. Is it really the majority of women in Egypt?

Yes, it looks like things are going to get worse for women in Egypt now that the Islamists are gaining power and influence. Here’s a link to a recent news article on the subject:

thehindu.com/opinion/columns/Kalpana_Sharma/article2573489.ece