women's authority in the church

[CarloMagnus]

I’m interested in the answer to this question. My parish has both forms of the Latin mass. We have a good amount of male servers in the EF.

It’s sort of interesting to me that the one time I attended the OF mass, I saw a female reader, cantor and EMHC.

So it makes me wonder if OF parishes, after VAT II, didn’t make a special effort to involve women and this is why there are so many women involved–not that men are not volunteering.

I tried to join a parish once, but they told me that they didn’t need me because they were all full. I noticed afterwards that the reason they were full was because all the women had taken the posts.

It looks to me like many churches are simply not even trying to let men take part. Covering it up saying,“But they don’t attend.” Is being outright dishonest.

-Karl

 

[LightBound]

I tried to join a parish once, but they told me that they didn’t need me because they were all full. I noticed afterwards that the reason they were full was because all the women had taken the posts.

-Karl

and…?

If you really wanted to volunteer, you would do what people who want a paid job in a specific area or place do…they request their name be kept on file and check back periodically. They network. They don’t just go “oh, well, some awful women took the job away from me”…

 

[asia53]

Don’t blame the women! Where are the men? Maybe the women come because the men have gone!

At my parish, the men never came! We’ve only a few men who will volunteer. The men have been asked, asked, asked, and very few step up. Please, no arguments about—it’s because of the women. It’s simply untrue!

It’s been my experience, there are slightly more women who volunteer. Generally, getting men or women to volunteer is very hard, comparable to pulling teeth.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Are you sure that you’re problem is with women in certain positions or with your preferences. Allow me explain.

…

I guess my question is whether your objection is that these are not priests or that they are not males. Incompetent and competent people come in both genders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

It sounds like you’ve had an entirely different experience with your diocese. See, what I posted about the chancellor and head of the ODW in my diocese was not all my opinion. For instance, I had from more than one person that the previous bishop was slowly trying to move the chancellor (word was he didn’t like her in that post, though I couldn’t confirm it). She was the pick of the bishop before him who was, I must say, a liberal. While your diocese may have been fixed up, mine was torn down. Your diocese recovered from silliness. Mine plunged into it.

I’ve heard from multiple priests (not traditional priests) about what the head of the ODW is like as well as dealt with her a little myself. She may be nice and polite, but she literally doesn’t know what she’s doing. Two of these priests would just roll their eyes when her name was mentioned. She pushes for the modernist agenda, and that means more plunging into the silliness that you mentioned. While I don’t think my diocese has had anything as bad as the RE Mass out in California, it’s still not been pretty around here.

Now, I’m not against people being in a role when it’s appropriate. But, at least in my diocese, the women who have been around have tended to be bossy radical feminists. I think one reason is that these are the women who TRY to gain these positions. So when a priest who has a theology degree and who does everything correctly butts heads with one of these, I’m going to trust that priest and not the nun in charge of the ODW.

And I also thoroughly agree that incompetence can come from anyone. I’m not blaming women for all the problems of the diocese. A very large share of the responsibility for the damage that has been done lies with the bishops, the priests, and anyone else who has been in power and contributed to the constant inanity, including assigning people to positions that they don’t know how to run. There are male feminists, too!

(Sorry about editing your post out. Either yours was too long, or mine was!)

 

[CB_Catholic]

I tried to join a parish once, but they told me that they didn’t need me because they were all full. I noticed afterwards that the reason they were full was because all the women had taken the posts.

It looks to me like many churches are simply not even trying to let men take part. Covering it up saying,“But they don’t attend.” Is being outright dishonest.

-Karl

You tried to join a parish and the parish said they were full? Never heard of such a thing. Perhaps you could explain this a little better.

 

[CarloMagnus]

and…?

If you really wanted to volunteer, you would do what people who want a paid job in a specific area or place do…they request their name be kept on file and check back periodically. They network. They don’t just go “oh, well, some awful women took the job away from me”…

The fact remains that they didn’t/don’t/will not have an open position because they’re not even trying to have the positions be filled by men. The logical thing would be to take away the positions and hand them over to men.

You’re not going to get anywhere with an attitude like that. And stating that “it’s your fault” is not bringing men any closer to Catholicism. I wonder which is better, the Church rot in silence or that the Church loses all priests?

The Church has not tried. They refuse to try. Blame men all you want, but the results speak for themselves. And the more you say “It’s men” the more we’ll say,“I’m not going there.”
-Karl

 

[CarloMagnus]

You tried to join a parish and the parish said they were full? Never heard of such a thing. Perhaps you could explain this a little better.

You want an address too? What more details could I possibly explain? The comment is straight-forward.

-Karl

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I’ve been to plenty of TLMs and NOs in my life. There’s one thing that I’ve noticed just about everywhere I go and that is that at the TLMs there is never any shortage of men to volunteer. There are always plenty of servers, there are men in the choir, they usher, they are there when there is physical work to be done. But also, there is no shortage of women who volunteer (yes, women get to do stuff at those churches!) including helping the clergy with meals, keeping flowers for the church, cleaning, taking care of the linens, and so on. There’s a part for every person to play - except pretending to be a priest. It’s at the NOs where I find there’s a distinct lack of men involved, but there’s never a shortage of women.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

 

[JReducation]

There is at least one documented case in the Church of a woman having authority over men.

Look up Alienor de Bretagne. She lived between 1275 and 1342. She was abbess of Fontevraud.

Fontevraud was a unique monastery in that it was divided into two monasteries, one of men, one of women. It was led by an abbess, not an abbot, and the abbess had authority over both the men’s and women’s side.

Alienor left a stunning gradual of sacred music. It includes the Kyrie “Orbis Factor” which later became the famous Kyrie XI.

You can hear it here:

Orbis Factor

How about Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth?

Does that constitute enough authority?

Actually not. It’s a good question and I’m glad that you asked it, because some people don’t understand this. Mary’s relationship to the Church is that of prototype and mother. She is not an authority figure in the Church. That does not figure as one of her attributes in Mariology.

Authority always belonged to Peter, the Apostles and those with whom they share it. In the early Church, while Mary was still alive, she did not participate in the governance or administration of the Church. Mary did not even participate in the preaching mission of the Church.

She was the mother and as such was revered and respected by the early Christians. This is what they handed down to the next generations. The role of the mother from the Jewish point of view was to nurture the faith of the family, to protect and to guide, but not to govern. Maternal authority does not have jurisdiction. It’s a moral authority, not a legal authority.

People get very confused with this and that’s how they get into some arguments that the pope did or did not do what Our Lady of Fatima ordered, because they think of Mary as having legal authority in the Church, which would place her above Peter. That was never the case. Mary would never compete with Peter or dictate to Peter. That is not the faith of the Church regarding Mary. Pope Benedict XVI has made some very interesting analyses on Mary’s role in the life of the Church. They are found in Jesus of Nazareth

Throughout history, there have been women in the Church with authority over men Alienor, Bridgette, Clare of Assisi, Teresa of Avila, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and Mother Angelica. That’s a span of about 800 years right there. In the past, abbesses fulfilled the legal obligations of bishops, because dioceses were very large. The see was very remote and transportation was very poor

 

[asia53]

You want an address too? What more details could I possibly explain? The comment is straight-forward.

-Karl

Peace, CarloMagnus. Your previous comment sounds as if you couldn’t join the parish—not you couldn’t volunteer at the parish.

 

[PhilOSophia]

You can’t view the feminisation in isolation. It’s part of a movement.

Mass went from being a very technical, highbrow, exclusive, men-only affair to something that could be picked up quickly and participated in, even in the sanctuary, by anyone. The priest faced forward and became an entertainer. The music turned into love ballads directed at a man; Christ.

None of this is attractive to men. But being visibly busy in the practice of religion is attractive to women. Men exit; enter women.

In a funny way, the old rite might save us all. Anyone meddling with that immediately flags themselves up as a dilletante. Whereas in the new rite they’re a liturgist.

 

[CarloMagnus]

Peace, CarloMagnus. Your previous comment sounds as if you couldn’t join the parish—not you couldn’t volunteer at the parish.

I don’t know the meaning of the word. I basically went there to the priest and asked if I could join in helping around. The answer was no. They were full. It’s not like they wanted more altar boys either.

-Karl

 

[JReducation]

.

I would like to add another comment, which has nothing to do with what you posted, but with what someone else posted. Rather than create another post, I’ll just put it in here.

There are people who want to create a cause - effect relationship between the drop in vocations and the use of female servers. This is not as clear as some people think. Take this from someone who prefers male servers.

Today, there are many male vocations, but we have to see where they’re going. Ninety percent of them are entering religious communities, not diocesan seminaries. Of that number, about 60% are choosing not to become priests. About 50% of the religious communities today are not ordaining as many men. They are focusing on recruiting for the religious life, because their obligation is to promote their charism, not to promote the priesthood, unless the priesthood is essential to their charism, such as the Jesuits and Dominicans.

There was definitely a drop in the number of men who entered both the seminary and religious life. This was actually a blessing in disguise. During the first 60 years of the 20th century, we had an unprecedented boom. However, also that generation gave us the largest number of sex offenders and dissident priests and religious in history. When your numbers are too large, there is difficulty with proper oversight in houses of formation, be they diocesan or religious.

Today, the attraction seems to be the religious life. The communities that are attracting men are very traditional, but not Traditionalist, though these are also attracting vocations, just not in the same large numbers. The Traditionalist communities make up less than one percent of the religious communities and societies of apostolic life

You have a lot of growth among the different Franciscans, Dominicans, and Missionaries of the Poor, Missionaries of Charity, SOLT, and some Benedictine houses. Then we must include the ED communities. These other communities are not ED communities and they are getting many vocations, especially to the consecrated religious life, though not too many to the priesthood.

As I said, there are two reasons . First, the attraction is the way of life, not the priestly ministry. Second, some communities are not ordaining as many. In my community, we ordain only one in ten. The Missionaries of the Poor have about 25 professions of vows every year, but are not allowed to ordain more than one in ten. The SOLT ordain only 1/3. Benedictines are ordaining only about half. The Franciscans around the world are ordaining only about half. The Missionaries of Charity are ordaining less than 10%.

The male vocations seem to be going to the more ascetical or the monastic communities, aside from the ED communities. Even though the ED communities have impressive numbers given their age and size, they are very low compared to the other communities. Part of that is due to the focus on priesthood. More often, today’s young man begins with an attraction to the priesthood, because he does not know about the consecrated life. As he explores, he discovers the consecrated life and the different communities that are very ascetical and very engaged in their vision and mission. They shift over to them

That’s why I say that we can’t really prove that there is a direct correlation between male servers and vocations. In my community, which is very young, we are growing at a rate of 300% per year. The average man has at least a Master’s in Divinity, which meets the education requirements for Holy Orders. Nevertheless, we only allow some to become priests. Most of these men were never servers. I would say about 1/3 were servers. What attracted them to our community were our ministry and our way of life, which is non-clerical to the point that we don’t even call our priests Father. Father is the superior, whether he is a priest or not. Everyone else is Brother. The priests disappear into anonymity. The same is true of Cistercians and Missionaries of Charity. Their priests are anonymous. However, we are getting vocations to the monastic life and to the mendicant life respectively.

There is more to this than meets the eye. I believe that today’s young man is attracted to the consecrated life. I am beginning to call this the “Age of the Religious.” Just look at communities like the Franciscans of the Immaculate or the Franciscans of the Renewal. They have exploded in numbers, but most are not priests. Most were never servers. The majority are not priests, because they don’t push the priesthood. They have no reason to do so. It’s not essential to Franciscan life. In many communities, the priesthood is a vocation within a vocation. The Missionaries of Charity is one of the largest growing communities of men in the Church. There are more than 3,000 of them. No one knows them. They are rarely priests. Mother Teresa prohibited the use of habits and the use of the title Father, except for the superior. Many of them are contemplatives. But they’re out there

 

[JReducation]

I believe that the one thing that happened was that Vatican II liberates the male religious from the clergy. It demanded that the religious communities return to their founders. The male religious were then free to go back to the days when they were preachers, cared for the sick and the poor, studied theology and led their communities, and once again were equal to their ordained brothers. There was no need to become a priest in order to have a place in the life of the religious community and to have an apostolate. Equal rights and equal duties were restored to those communities that had stifled the consecrated life or reduced it to priesthood. This phenomenon happened between Vatican I and Vatican II. Religious superiors felt a moral obligation to ordain in order to respond to the needs of the lay faithful. The Church has relieved the superiors of this moral obligation and has told them that their moral obligation is to recover the spirit of the founder.

None of this has to do with women in positions of authority. On the contrary, this created an opening for women to take over positions that these men vacated and it forced these men to acknowledge the place of women.

To close I will offer a simple example from Franciscan tradition. St. Francis did not allow the brothers to govern the sisters. He believed that no woman should ever have to submit to any man. He gave Clare and her sisters free reign over their life and work. Clare, on the other hand, dictated to Francis and the friars until the day she died. At some point around Vatican II, the friars stopped talking about Clare. She became some pious woman that no one knew much about. After Vatican II, we went back to the old days when Clare was referred to as Our Holy Mother. However, the Poor Clares do not refer to Francis as their Holy Father. He is Blessed Francis to them in order to remain faithful to Francis vision that women should not submit to men. Just an interesting tidbit of the male-female relationship in the Church. The Discalced Carmelites are the same way. Teresa is mother. John of the Cross is not father.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[agnes_therese]

But being visibly busy in the practice of religion is attractive to women.

That’s not true of anyone I know. We just do what needs to be done, because Father needs it done. And frankly, while realizing you may not have meant it that way, I find that statement insulting to women; it implies we only serve the Church in order to gain recognition.

 

[JReducation]

It sounds like you’ve had an entirely different experience with your diocese.

Yes, we have. For that reason, I can’t buy into the gender issue. I think there are competent and incompetent people in both genders. The person doing the hiring as to screen out the incompetent.

See, what I posted about the chancellor and head of the ODW in my diocese was not all my opinion. For instance, I had from more than one person that the previous bishop was slowly trying to move the chancellor (word was he didn’t like her in that post, though I couldn’t confirm it). She was the pick of the bishop before him who was, I must say, a liberal.

Be careful here. There seems to be a lot of gossip here. Canon Law is explicit. When the Ordinary of the diocese changes, all posts cease. It is up to the new Ordinary to confirm them or change people around. If the bishop kept the chancellor, it was his choice. It was no imposed on him. Chancery staff are like the President’s cabinet. Their appointment ceases when the bishop leaves office. He can also terminate the appointment at any time.

While your diocese may have been fixed up, mine was torn down. Your diocese recovered from silliness. Mine plunged into it.

Unfortunately, that happens. As St.Francis told the laity of his day, “I command you to obey your bishop, whether he is a saint or the worse sinner in the world, so that through your example of humility and obedience, you may convert the world to Christ.”

I’ve heard from multiple priests (not traditional priests) about what the head of the ODW is like as well as dealt with her a little myself. She may be nice and polite, but she literally doesn’t know what she’s doing. Two of these priests would just roll their eyes when her name was mentioned. She pushes for the modernist agenda, and that means more plunging into the silliness that you mentioned. While I don’t think my diocese has had anything as bad as the RE Mass out in California, it’s still not been pretty around here.

Be careful with priests who roll their eyes. Saints never roll their eyes. They are very discreet people.

Now, I’m not against people being in a role when it’s appropriate. But, at least in my diocese, the women who have been around have tended to be bossy radical feminists. I think one reason is that these are the women who TRY to gain these positions.

This has nothing to do with being women. It has to do with their agenda.

So when a priest who has a theology degree and who does everything correctly butts heads with one of these, I’m going to trust that priest and not the nun in charge of the ODW.

You do know that most priests do not have theology degrees. They have an M.Div, which is not the same as an MA in Theology or an MTS, or STD. An M.Div is a degree in divinity. It’s a practical degree. That does not mean that they have no formation in theology. It simply means that they did not specialize in theology. Very few priests specialize in theology, even in the ED communities. It’s a long degree and very expensive, almost cost prohibitive.

And I also thoroughly agree that incompetence can come from anyone. I’m not blaming women for all the problems of the diocese. A very large share of the responsibility for the damage that has been done lies with the bishops, the priests, and anyone else who has been in power and contributed to the constant inanity, including assigning people to positions that they don’t know how to run. There are male feminists, too!

The people who do the hiring need to have a better filtering system.

As I said, not only are many of these posts held by women, but today they are also held by religious brothers who have degrees in theology or by deacons with degrees in theology. We have to make sure that we do not discriminate because they’re women. Some women are very well educated and very competent. If you choose the less competent or the less educated, you’re not going to get what you hope for, regardless of the gender.

My case is a good example. We always had priests running pro-life ministry in our diocese. Several years ago, it was given over to a lay woman theologian to run. She invited me to join her. She runs the ministry for the entire diocese. All kinds of things are happening in pro-life ministry. Pastors, school principles, youth ministers, catechists and more are being pulled into the issues of abortion, contraception, euthanasia, capital punishment, eugenics, infanticide and chastity. She has created an incredible network of education programs, centers and out reach to those in crisis situations and those who minister to them.

The fathers in crisis pregnancies were never addressed and nothing was available to bring them in and to help the step up to the place. I was started Project Joseph, which does just this. It has expanded to the entire diocese and another. I’m not a priest. I’m a religious brother with a doctorate in theology and many years of experience in ministry.

The former directer, Father X, recently came back to visit Respect Life and was in awe at the positive changes and the expansion. His first remark was, “I would not have been able to do this. I was never trained for this. My knowledge of theology does not go far enough and I never had training in administration.” This is the case with many priests, unless they have continued to higher studies after their M.Div or to further studies in an academic field such as administration of non-profits.

The problems stem from education and competency, not from gender or priesthood. Remember, even the most educated can be incompetent. I believe that competency is a gift that you can’t really learn, just my theory.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

You do know that most priests do not have theology degrees.

I am aware of that. However, since I mentioned the priest has a theology degree, he has a theology degree, rare as that may be.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

Just an interesting tidbit of the male-female relationship in the Church. The Discalced Carmelites are the same way. Teresa is mother. John of the Cross is not father.

I do have to correct you on this because you’ve got it wrong. They do refer to St. John of the Cross as father.

(My sister is a Discalced Carmelite. )

 

[Baelor]

We might think dancing in Church or women leading Communion Services are rareties now, but there’s no reason whatsoever they couldn’t become commonplace, at the current rate and ways the Novus Ordo is developing.

Can you provide quantitative or even substantial data to analyze the "ways the Novus Ordo is developing?

The fact remains that they didn’t/don’t/will not have an open position because they’re not even trying to have the positions be filled by men.

So?

The logical thing would be to take away the positions and hand them over to men.

Why on earth would you think this is logical? The male laity does not have more right than the female laity to serve in the positions, except arguably in the case of altar servers, if one assumes that the right of a priest/bishop not to have female servers is indicative of an institutional preference for male servers.

You’re not going to get anywhere with an attitude like that. And stating that “it’s your fault” is not bringing men any closer to Catholicism. I wonder which is better, the Church rot in silence or that the Church loses all priests?

Lectors do not generally become priests because they are lectors, so this seems like a straw man to me. Perhaps you could be more specific?

Mass went from being a very technical, highbrow, exclusive, men-only affair to something that could be picked up quickly and participated in, even in the sanctuary, by anyone.

This is bad because…? And what do you mean by men-only affair? This statement reads as a condemnation of the EF.

The priest faced forward and became an entertainer. The music turned into love ballads directed at a man; Christ.

The priest is not an entertainer by virtue of facing forward. The idea that this is inherent in the NO is as uncharitable as it is incorrect. There is nothing wrong with ad orientem, nor is there anything inherently wrong with versus populum.

None of this is attractive to men. But being visibly busy in the practice of religion is attractive to women. Men exit; enter women.

Fortunately, we are not called to make judgments on whether we like the Mass. We are called to obey and to go to Mass. The fact that men do not wish to participate is only a problem insofar as the men are not doing what they should be doing.

 

[graciew]

QUOTE=PhilOSophia;9151833]

Mass went from being a very technical, highbrow, exclusive, men-only affair to something that could be picked up quickly and participated in, even in the sanctuary, by anyone. The priest faced forward and became an entertainer. The music turned into love ballads directed at a man; Christ.

.

To say that a priest became an entertainer cause he is faced foward is too much.
You may have your preferences about music,but none of the men I see around are singing “love ballads to a man”,but worshipping God.
And I frankly do not understand what you mean by “anyone”.