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Tyler_Smedley
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I fail to see the badness of having girl altar servers, some posts were a little critical of this practice, why?
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Dr.Colossus
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To be honest, I think most people who are against female altar servers believe it will pave the way to female priests (priestettes?). Those who want female priests point to female altar servers as the “foot in the door”, so-to-speak. The thing is, the positions are entirely unrelated! Altar servers are laity. Priests are not. It’s my understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong, this info came from my time at a Catholic high school) that at one point there were even Deaconesses in the early church. The reason women cannot be priests are numerous, but they all relate to the order of the Priesthood, and nothing else. They all revolve around the fact that only a priest acts in persona Christi, and that Christ chose only men as Apostles. In every other instance, Christ has affirmed the capacity of women to fulfill His mission.
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Crusader
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Dr. Colossus:
The “deaconesses” you speak of in the earliest years of the Catholic Church were not ordained. Their ministry was more like a religious sister of today.
The ministry of altar servers is an extremely valuable tool to help foster priestly vocations. That’s why I think it should be limited to those that might possibly become priests or deacons one day.
The “deaconesses” you speak of in the earliest years of the Catholic Church were not ordained. Their ministry was more like a religious sister of today.
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Dr.Colossus
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Thanks. I’d always wondered about that. Like I said, it came from my Catholic education days, so I usually try to verify anything I learned then.
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Dr.Colossus
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But once again, that would be a matter of discipline, not doctrine.
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Fathero9
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Tyler Smedley:
Steve
I would like to back to Tyler’s question from several days ago. How do we change their minds? I know someone that is a recent convert to the Church (3 years) that is having a crisis of faith over this issue. She was a Methodist minister before joining the Church, so the change was drastic. How do you help someone get through this? Citing facts and refering them to websites that cite the same facts doesn’t really help. She probably knows what the Church says in this regard better than most. I am praying for her. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Steve
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Br.Dan_OCD
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In defending this teaching or explaining it to non-Catholics, I think it is helpful to never say that the Pope or the Church has “closed the debate” or that the issue of women’s ordination is no longer “to be discussed,” as you often hear. The first reason for this is that the Pope, in the apostolic letter, never said that the issue is no longer to be debated or discussed. He said that it is no longer the case that the Church’s position on the issue is open to debate/discussion.
A second reason is that the whole notion of the Church or Pope “closing the debate” is used by dissenters to make the heirarchy appear domineering and power-hungry. Once that’s done, it’s easier for them to win people over to their position. After all, who would want to agree with an institution that takes away free speech rights?
Granted, I don’t really know if this is the way people who dissent from this teaching think–I’m not one of them, thanks be to God. Even if it isn’t, it still makes no sense to say that we can no longer discuss or debate a theological issue.
Sincerely yours in our Lord,
Br. Dan
A second reason is that the whole notion of the Church or Pope “closing the debate” is used by dissenters to make the heirarchy appear domineering and power-hungry. Once that’s done, it’s easier for them to win people over to their position. After all, who would want to agree with an institution that takes away free speech rights?
Granted, I don’t really know if this is the way people who dissent from this teaching think–I’m not one of them, thanks be to God. Even if it isn’t, it still makes no sense to say that we can no longer discuss or debate a theological issue.
Sincerely yours in our Lord,
Br. Dan
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cmom
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No matter what the Pope does, the dissenters will think it is wrong. They just can’t understand the concept of somebody telling them no.
The Church has said this is an infallible decision, so any further discussion over the possibility is pointless.
The Church has said this is an infallible decision, so any further discussion over the possibility is pointless.
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Maggie
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Father of 9 - let me try to address the issue for your friend without going into too much personal background for myself. In the beginning, when first pursuing RCIA, I thought that someday women would be ordained. There was nothing I wanted more than to be a priest. All my life. Then we started to learn about the Holy Spirit, and about discernment. And it clicked. I simply couldn’t be. If you go back to Paul’s teachings (and unfortunately she’s probably been taught that Paul was a mis-ogynist like I was) there are different gifts of the Spirit. But what is necessary to be a priest aren’t gifts that are given to women. It’s as simple as that and there was no way around it. So I cried. And I prayed (and I had a very staunch friend praying for me as well). And for a while I just wished I’d been born the boy in the family. And then I came to accept that God had other plans for me and that “Thy will be done” meant I was asking for His will not mine, and that I really did trust that His plans were better than mine.
I don’t know if it helps to know that other people, when they first enter the church, have dreams like that. And she might have thought, like I did, that some day the “ruling” would change. But your spiritual journey teaches you that the “rulings” are Truth and that the Holy Spirit guides the church. See where she is on her connection to and understanding of that Truth.
Next, I think a lot of Catholics think that everyone understands and accepts the Trinity far better than most people actually do. The recognition of the Holy Spirit was breathtaking for me. A lot of protestants think that they have a personal relationship with Jesus, but don’t get as far as understanding what I’ll term (probably badly) the three step process… God the Father walked with the Israelites… then sent Jesus to earth in human form… then when Christ died and was resurrected and ascended into heaven He sent the Holy Spirit to us… so when they walk with Jesus, they are walking with the Holy Spirit … once that hit me, it was overwhelming. That relationship that I have with Christ… THAT’S who’s guiding the church… OH! All of a sudden what seemed arbitrary became Truth.
My theology is probably all phrased badly, I still can’t put the Trinity into words correctly for anything (someday… I’ll keep working on it). But hopefully you can get past the errors to the heart of the experience and maybe some of it would help you with your friend.
I don’t know if it helps to know that other people, when they first enter the church, have dreams like that. And she might have thought, like I did, that some day the “ruling” would change. But your spiritual journey teaches you that the “rulings” are Truth and that the Holy Spirit guides the church. See where she is on her connection to and understanding of that Truth.
Next, I think a lot of Catholics think that everyone understands and accepts the Trinity far better than most people actually do. The recognition of the Holy Spirit was breathtaking for me. A lot of protestants think that they have a personal relationship with Jesus, but don’t get as far as understanding what I’ll term (probably badly) the three step process… God the Father walked with the Israelites… then sent Jesus to earth in human form… then when Christ died and was resurrected and ascended into heaven He sent the Holy Spirit to us… so when they walk with Jesus, they are walking with the Holy Spirit … once that hit me, it was overwhelming. That relationship that I have with Christ… THAT’S who’s guiding the church… OH! All of a sudden what seemed arbitrary became Truth.
My theology is probably all phrased badly, I still can’t put the Trinity into words correctly for anything (someday… I’ll keep working on it). But hopefully you can get past the errors to the heart of the experience and maybe some of it would help you with your friend.
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DVIN_CKS
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Has the Pope ever spoken “ex cathedra” on the topic of women’s ordination? If so, when? I don’t believe the topic of women being/not being ordained is covered by the guarentee of infallibility…yet. Although many would like to believe that it is. In the true definition of ex cathedra, I’m not sure the claim can be made that women will NEVER be priests because it is an infallible teaching. I do not believe the Pope has made this an infallible teaching.
In fact, one apologetics source I have states that our Popes make infallible decrees - in the strictest sense - only every 100 years or so.
These two quotes were taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia found on this website: newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#I
“…the presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.”
“It need only be added here that not everything in a conciliar or papal pronouncement, in which some doctrine is defined, is to be treated as definitive and infallible. For example, in the lengthy Bull of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception the strictly definitive and infallible portion is comprised in a sentence or two; and the same is true in many cases in regard to conciliar decisions. The merely argumentative and justificatory statements embodied in definitive judgments, however true and authoritative they may be, are not covered by the guarantee of infallibility which attaches to the strictly definitive sentences – unless, indeed, their infallibility has been previously or subsequently established by an independent decision.”
In fact, one apologetics source I have states that our Popes make infallible decrees - in the strictest sense - only every 100 years or so.
These two quotes were taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia found on this website: newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm#I
“…the presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.”
“It need only be added here that not everything in a conciliar or papal pronouncement, in which some doctrine is defined, is to be treated as definitive and infallible. For example, in the lengthy Bull of Pius IX defining the Immaculate Conception the strictly definitive and infallible portion is comprised in a sentence or two; and the same is true in many cases in regard to conciliar decisions. The merely argumentative and justificatory statements embodied in definitive judgments, however true and authoritative they may be, are not covered by the guarantee of infallibility which attaches to the strictly definitive sentences – unless, indeed, their infallibility has been previously or subsequently established by an independent decision.”
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cmom
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NickFrance
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Absolutely, Jim hit the nail on the head. A priest acts in persona Christi, this is it in a nutshell.
BTW: Shouldn’t women embrace the example of Mary?
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DVIN_CKS
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What exactly does in persona Christi mean? “As a representative of Christ”? “As a representation”? “An image”? “An icon”? Does the priest at the altar and elsewhere truly act in persona Christi, or in persona ecclesiae (in the person of the church), or both: in persona Christi et ecclesiae? So, what does this all have to do with maleness?
The church speaks of the necessity for a “natural resemblance” between Christ and the priest. This strikes me as a bit vague or euphemistic. Does a chubby, bald, blue-eyed, red-faced, weak-willed, and irritable seventy-year old man display more of such a “natural resemblance” than a fit, dark-haired, brown-eyed, olive-skinned, strong minded, eloquent, and compassionate woman of thirty-five? Isn’t “natural resemblance” just a euphemistic way of saying “possessing a penis”?
In the Pope’s letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis…does this letter of declaration constitute a teaching “ex cathedra”? Is this letter the same as a decree? I don’t think it is. Unless my understanding of teaching ex cathedra is flawed, assumming that the Pope’s declaration in this letter is an infallible teaching is just plain wrong.
The church speaks of the necessity for a “natural resemblance” between Christ and the priest. This strikes me as a bit vague or euphemistic. Does a chubby, bald, blue-eyed, red-faced, weak-willed, and irritable seventy-year old man display more of such a “natural resemblance” than a fit, dark-haired, brown-eyed, olive-skinned, strong minded, eloquent, and compassionate woman of thirty-five? Isn’t “natural resemblance” just a euphemistic way of saying “possessing a penis”?
In the Pope’s letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis…does this letter of declaration constitute a teaching “ex cathedra”? Is this letter the same as a decree? I don’t think it is. Unless my understanding of teaching ex cathedra is flawed, assumming that the Pope’s declaration in this letter is an infallible teaching is just plain wrong.
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Melissa
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DVIN_CKS
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Despite a quarter century of Vatican and papal pronouncements escalating in the apparent finality in regards to limiting the priesthood to men…the truth remains…the Pope has never spoken ex cathedra on the topic, therefore the case isn’t closed. The Pope may not want to discuss the issue further…but he hasn’t issued any infallible teaching. If he has, please let me know.
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MichaelTDoyle
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We all should. You know that!
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Br.Dan_OCD
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Dear DVIN CKS,
Did you read what is said by Card. Ratzinger at the link Melissa provided? It is necessary to remember that ex cathedra statements are not the only source of infallible teachings. Check the Catechism as I am unable to provide quotes or anything of the sort off the top of my head…
Sincerely yours in our Lord,
Br. Dan
Did you read what is said by Card. Ratzinger at the link Melissa provided? It is necessary to remember that ex cathedra statements are not the only source of infallible teachings. Check the Catechism as I am unable to provide quotes or anything of the sort off the top of my head…
Sincerely yours in our Lord,
Br. Dan
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Cephas
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hey DVIN CKS,
Br. Dan’s post is correct about ex cathedra.
What follows is my first post, read it
Cephas:
Br. Dan’s post is correct about ex cathedra.
What follows is my first post, read it
Canon 750 #2 (Code of Canon Law) reads as follows:
“Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, **one who refuses ** those propositions which are to be held definitively **is opposed ** to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.”
now let’s look at John Paul II’s letter on Womens Ordination (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) paragraph 4:
"… Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf.Lk 22:32) **I declare ** that the Church has **no authority ** whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful."
interpretation: It aint gonna happen folks
interestingly enough Canon 751 begins like this:
"Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith;…"
Cephas
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DVIN_CKS
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To quote Karl Keating…“An infallible papal pronouncement is made only when some doctrine is called into question…look at the great number of doctrines, most of which have never been formally defined by an ex cathedra papal statement.”
The doctrine of the ordination of men to the priesthood is the doctrine that is in question here, right? This is the doctrine that is referenced in the number of congregational declarations and papal letters that some of you have so kindly sited. These writings serve to uphold or confirm the current doctrine. This doctrine has been challenged, but to my knowledge the Pope hasn’t issued an ex cathedra statement. Perhaps he has, but I’m misunderstanding the process?
Seems the best the Pope’s been able to do is to say that the issue is closed for discussion and that the doctrine will continue to be infallibly taught as is.
This doctrine has been infallibly taught by the Church. The recent writings that have been sited serve to uphold or confirm the original doctrine. I get that. However, it would seem to me that once a doctrine is challenged as this one most certainly has, then why doesn’t the Pope come out with an ex cathedra decree?
Seems to me that until that happens…this doctrine can continue to be challenged — even though the Pope doesn’t want to discuss it anymore.
The doctrine of the ordination of men to the priesthood is the doctrine that is in question here, right? This is the doctrine that is referenced in the number of congregational declarations and papal letters that some of you have so kindly sited. These writings serve to uphold or confirm the current doctrine. This doctrine has been challenged, but to my knowledge the Pope hasn’t issued an ex cathedra statement. Perhaps he has, but I’m misunderstanding the process?
Seems the best the Pope’s been able to do is to say that the issue is closed for discussion and that the doctrine will continue to be infallibly taught as is.
This doctrine has been infallibly taught by the Church. The recent writings that have been sited serve to uphold or confirm the original doctrine. I get that. However, it would seem to me that once a doctrine is challenged as this one most certainly has, then why doesn’t the Pope come out with an ex cathedra decree?
Seems to me that until that happens…this doctrine can continue to be challenged — even though the Pope doesn’t want to discuss it anymore.
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renegadearchtct
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Tyler Smedley:
As one priest said, “Equality exists only in HELL!”
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