"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[OneForTruth]

Yes, and he says that if you sow to the Spirit (i.e. doing good), you will reap eternal life. That part you did not address. This verse is directly related to the verse in Romans 2. God will judge us according to our works.

God Bless,
Michael

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

What about those that are not led by the Spirit?

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The elect were predestined to be saved and they will be saved. Must they perform?? Yes, indeed…but, **they will perform **for God has ordained it from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is all of God’s gracious choice and not at all of the flesh…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I will work on the “free will” thing later. Gotta go.

Have a great day!

 

[mikeledes]

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

What about those that are not led by the Spirit?

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The elect were predestined to be saved and they will be saved. Must they perform?? Yes, indeed…but, **they will perform **for God has ordained it from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is all of God’s gracious choice and not at all of the flesh…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I will work on the “free will” thing later. Gotta go.

Have a great day!

Thank you for your response. I think we can both agree that God will infallibly save the elect, though we differ on our definition of who the elect are. You say that all of those justified are of the elect. I say all of the elect have been justified, but not all of the justified are of the elect. I believe that the elect will persevere and that God will give them the Holy Spirit and the grace necessary to perform the good works He requires of them. I believe that God incorporates their free will in accomplishing their salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[OneForTruth]

Thank you for your response. I think we can both agree that God will infallibly save the elect, though we differ on our definition of who the elect are. You say that all of those justified are of the elect. I say all of the elect have been justified, but not all of the justified are of the elect. I believe that the elect will persevere and that God will give them the Holy Spirit and the grace necessary to perform the good works He requires of them. I believe that God incorporates their free will in accomplishing their salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

Can you show me where we see these three groups of people are in scripture…

The elect, the justified non-elect, and the unjustified non-elect. I am not sure where to find the second group.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

The word for church is…ekklesia - a calling out - We are all referred to as the elect from what I have been able to gather from scripture.

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

The basic point of my use of the passage wasto demonstrate that a righteous person can fail to persevere. If you believe in the perseverance of the saints, than that has soteriological (name removed by moderator)lications for your theology.

Mike you are doing all you can to make the passage say what it does not intend to say.

Here is the point of the passage Eze 18:1-32: Israel, you are suffering presently, not because of the sins of your ancestors, but because of the sins that you are committing this day; each of you is responsible for his own sin; repent!

mikeledes:

A person who dies in sin, having turned away from God, has not persevered to the end.

A person who dies in sin cannot turn away from God, as he as never turned toward God. One who’s been drawn to Christ by the Father, will put his faith in Christ, and his sins will be forgiven—all of them (Col 2:13); and Christ will raise him up at the last day, and he will never perish because that is the will of the Father (Jn 6:37, 39, 40; 10:28).

mikeledes:

And yet the Bible states that only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

By Jesus own proclamation (Mt 10:22).

Perseverance is rooted in the work of Jesus:Luke 22:31-32

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail…”This is a prelude to the work of Jesus in His office of intercessory High Priest; it is an office which is permanent, and it is an office in which He is able to save forever those given to Him by the Father, because He always lives to make intercession for those given to Him by the Father (Heb 7:23-25).

You either believe that Christ us able to do the will of the Father, and not fail at His office of High Priest, or you don’t.

mikeledes:

The righteous in question possess the righteousness of God because God describes them as being righteous, hence they are righteous in His eyes. If they are righteous in His eyes, than they possess the righteousness of God. In God’s eyes, you are either ungodly or righteous. There is no in between from God’s perspective.

If, as you claim, the one spoken of as “righteous” in Eze 18, indeed has the righteousness of God, then he will never perish.

mikeledes:

The allegeory is about all of the followers of Christ, not just the Twelve. This is accepted by many Protestants as well. One is not a part of something one does not belong to.

Right; that is why they are cut off by the vinedresser: they are not a part of the vine—Christ—and so are thrown away.

mikeledes:

If the faith of a person is not genuine faith, they cannot be in Christ. A branch, by nature, definition, and logic, is an integral part of a plant (i.e. tree, vine, etc.), just as my hand is an integral part of my body. A branch enjoys the life giving nutrients that come from the Vine. If it is cut off, it dies. Jesus clearly states “branch in me.” He recognizes them as being incorporated into Him. If they were not genuinely in Him, he would not describe them as such. A person may appear to be in Christ to other Christians, but they cannot fool God.

That’s right, Mike; they cannot fool the vinedresser, and so, he cuts them off. This is a didactic parable, Mike, and parables make one point—those who profess Christ, but are not in Christ, cannot fool Christ, and are cast off.

mikeledes:

Yes, he tells them to knock off the boasting because they also may cease being in God’s kindness and experience the severity of God by being cut off. That part you did not address. You cannot “continue” in God’s kindness if you were never in God’s kindness to begin with. That’s just plain logic.

And plain bible is that those given to Christ by the Father will never perish.

mikeledes:

Yes, and he says that if you sow to the Spirit (i.e. doing good), you will reap eternal life. That part you did not address. This verse is directly related to the verse in Romans 2. God will judge us according to our works.

The only ones who can sow to the spirit are those who are already spiritual.

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

The basic point of my use of the passage wasto demonstrate that a righteous person can fail to persevere. If you believe in the perseverance of the saints, than that has soteriological (name removed by moderator)lications for your theology.

Mike you are doing all you can to make the passage say what it does not intend to say.

Here is the point of the passage Eze 18:1-32: Israel, you are suffering presently, not because of the sins of your ancestors, but because of the sins that you are committing this day; each of you is responsible for his own sin; repent!

mikeledes:

A person who dies in sin, having turned away from God, has not persevered to the end.

A person who dies in sin cannot turn away from God, as he as never turned toward God. One who’s been drawn to Christ by the Father, will put his faith in Christ, and his sins will be forgiven—all of them (Col 2:13); and Christ will raise him up at the last day, and he will never perish because that is the will of the Father (Jn 6:37, 39, 40; 10:28).

mikeledes:

And yet the Bible states that only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

By Jesus own proclamation (Mt 10:22).

Perseverance is rooted in the work of Jesus:Luke 22:31-32

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail…”This is a prelude to the work of Jesus in His office of intercessory High Priest; it is an office which is permanent, and it is an office in which He is able to save forever those given to Him by the Father, because He always lives to make intercession for those given to Him by the Father (Heb 7:23-25).

You either believe that Christ us able to do the will of the Father, and not fail at His office of High Priest, or you don’t.

mikeledes:

The righteous in question possess the righteousness of God because God describes them as being righteous, hence they are righteous in His eyes. If they are righteous in His eyes, than they possess the righteousness of God. In God’s eyes, you are either ungodly or righteous. There is no in between from God’s perspective.

If, as you claim, the one spoken of as “righteous” in Eze 18, indeed has the righteousness of God, then he will never perish.

mikeledes:

The allegeory is about all of the followers of Christ, not just the Twelve. This is accepted by many Protestants as well. One is not a part of something one does not belong to.

Right; that is why they are cut off by the vinedresser: they are not a part of the vine—Christ—and so are thrown away.

mikeledes:

If the faith of a person is not genuine faith, they cannot be in Christ. A branch, by nature, definition, and logic, is an integral part of a plant (i.e. tree, vine, etc.), just as my hand is an integral part of my body. A branch enjoys the life giving nutrients that come from the Vine. If it is cut off, it dies. Jesus clearly states “branch in me.” He recognizes them as being incorporated into Him. If they were not genuinely in Him, he would not describe them as such. A person may appear to be in Christ to other Christians, but they cannot fool God.

That’s right, Mike; they cannot fool the vinedresser, and so, he cuts them off. This is a didactic parable, Mike, and parables make one point—those who profess Christ, but are not in Christ, cannot fool Christ, and are cast off.

mikeledes:

Yes, he tells them to knock off the boasting because they also may cease being in God’s kindness and experience the severity of God by being cut off. That part you did not address. You cannot “continue” in God’s kindness if you were never in God’s kindness to begin with. That’s just plain logic.

And plain bible is that those given to Christ by the Father will never perish.

mikeledes:

Yes, and he says that if you sow to the Spirit (i.e. doing good), you will reap eternal life. That part you did not address. This verse is directly related to the verse in Romans 2. God will judge us according to our works.

The only ones who can sow to the spirit are those who are already spiritual.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, I fully understand this. Yet in view of the cross Paul writes:Titus 3:4-5 "But when the kindness of God our Savior and [His] love for mankind appeared, He saved us (presented here as a fact, not a “process”), not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness (not on the basis of any deeds, even “done in righteousness,” so not a "process"), but according to His mercy (not our deeds), by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit (***IOW, no human works involved, hence, not a process ***)It is “presumptuous” for those who base salvation on something other than the cross of Christ.

I agree with you that the cross is the basis of our salvation. However, I think you are creating dichotomies where none exist. the facts (completed events) with regard to salvation are not mutually exclusive with the process. The saving work of Christ was completed, but our participation in it has not been. Some of those who will be saved don’t even know it yet!

When one sees salvation in light of the cross (what was accomplished there, in full, on our behalf), then the comfort of eternal security could hardly be considered presumptuous. But when someone sees salvation as a “process,” wrought in men and not in Christ, then I fully understand that to such a mind it must seem presumptuous.

Since Christ needs no salvation, then it is not wrought “in Him” in the same sense that it is wrought in us who require it. It is accomplished through and by Him, but is for our benefit. One can recognize that His finished work is accomplished, without partaking of that work.

However, if one would fully understands the cross, such notions would be forever expelled and all uncertainties would disappear, your faith resting only in God.But not that the soul is actually saved; salvation being a “work in process,” probationary in nature, and pending the state in which a RC dies.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here. The finished work of Christ is completed, and immutable. However, humans are not that way, and able to jump out of the boat, as was pointed out in a previous post. The term “probationary” does not apply here. As the wicked servant parable shows, the master forgave him his debt utterly. It was not until he refused to forgive his fellow servants that he re-incurred the debt. (Matt.18:35)

IOW, these two groups are judged “worthy” based on their words and deeds. The former more readily “worthy” than the latter - but, nevertheless, you claim both groups enter heaven based on the worthiness of their deeds (works).

You are wrong about the judgment. Persons who are saved are not under the law, and do not enter into judgement based on the law, but under grace. The words and deeds that are judged are those of the “righteous”, sacred works, which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Sacred works are not based upon “worth” in human terms, but upon grace, through faith in Christ. They are a reflection of His work on the cross, and His grace at work in us who are saved. I have never claimed that people enter heaven based on the worthiness of their deeds. I think you continue to make this accusation to be cantankerous.

(continued)

 

[guanophore]

What about the group that doesn’t enter heaven? The condemned? On what basis then are they blocked? You quoted Matt. 12:36-37: "I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."I must assume you view this verse in a broad soteriological context, since that’s the way you present it. Which would then (according to you) render ALL men either saved or damned based exclusively on the criterion of the worthiness of their words and deeds (works).

I think it would be presumptuous for me to explain why certain persons are blocked from heaven. My personal opinion is that people that don’t want to be in the presence of God will not be compelled to do so. I do not think “ALL” are saved or damned based upon anything! What I said was that God desired all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and that some people refuse baptism and God’s intention for themselves.
“… but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.” Luke 7:30

What we see is the cross being conspicuously left out of the picture.

I think you and the rest of your royalty (we?) have not seen the cross in the picture because you were not in the services during Lent, and good Friday. If you missed that, then how could you see?

This, believe it or not, is the greatest flaw and egregious error of the proponents of salvation based on the *meritorious works* of men, rather than completely on the "*once for all*" substitutionary, *sacrificial work* of Christ.

Indeed, egregious in every way. But not exclusive of salvation being a process in which humans must participate. Both things are true.

And for this reason the Pauline doctrines on salvation, justification, reconciliation, etc., found in his Epistles, are incomprehensible to them. Why? Because ALL his teachings, even exhortations on behavior, are delivered to the saints in light of the cross and the salvation God accomplished there - not apart from it. This, of course, goes for all teachings found in all the N.T. Epistles, as well.

This is a good point. Jesus preached to non-believers as well as believers, and many of His teachings are specifically directed to unbelievers, quite pointedly.

Sorry “Guano,” but when the Epistles are illuminated by the light of the cross, one cannot find the Catholic doctrine of “salvation by cooperation” taught in them.

Well, ok. I will agree to disagree with you. Those of us that find such teaching there may go our way, and you (and your royals?) with you. No doubt it will all be straighened out when we shall see Him face to face.

Try reading the Epistles in that light next time. You just might see a divine salvation based on GRACE, through faith alone, firmly rooted in the cross of Christ, totally apart from human works of any kind.

Been there, and done that, Apo. A year in a Grace Brethren community and another year in a Pentecostal left me well versed in the truncated gospel. The Catholic Church teaches that salvation is divine, based upon grace, through faith, firmly rooted in the cross of Christ. We are also taught that we are participators in Christ, and that He became like us so that we might become like Him. This we do by perseverance of our faith, entering into the door of grace that He has opened. No human works will get us to heaven, but denying that salvation is based on the Work of God into which human persons must enter is missing out. Without participation in that sacred work, salvation does not reach completion.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

I am not sure this is true sandusky. Since the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, once someone has received the regenerative grace in baptism, I think they are sealed. Just like the prodigal son, they can choose to throw away their inheritance, but it does not remove the seal of what Christ did.

If you commit a mortal sin, you lose sanctifying grace, and therefore, justification; if you die in a condition of known, and unconfessed mortal sin, you go to hell. Correct?

guanophore:

I am not so sure I understand what you mean by this. However, I am sure that we disagree about this one point. Works are a determining factor in salvation to the extent that one must do the work of God in order to be saved…

That’s what I said: works are not excluded from your soteriology (doctrine of salvation). However, most Catholics deny that their works earn salvation from a standpoint of strict merit; nevertheless, salvation can be lost on the basis of strict de-merit; at any rate, works are not completely excluded.

guanophore:

It appears that you misunderstand the teaching of the Catholic Church, sandusky…

You, speaking for yourself, said above that, “Works are a determining factor in salvation to the extent that one must do the work of God in order to be saved.” What am I misunderstanding concerning your statement?

guanophore:

Apparently you have not been given the grace to understand the difference between the Works of God, and works of the flesh.

You’re being condescending; I understand, perfectly, the difference between the two.

guanophore:

Of course the omnipotent creator is able to save those He intends to save! I never said anything to the contrary. What I said was that, even though no one can snatch them out of HIs hand, they certainly have the free will to JUMP out!

That is a contradiction; either God’s will is able to keep one from jumping ship, or God’s will is unable to keep one from jumping ship.

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

Is belief in eternal security necessary to be saved,

Of course not. Belief that the saved are eternally secure (in Christ) is something “understood” when the saved fully comprehend the doctrines of the cross revealed in the Epistles (especially Paul’s). When they understand that ALL the requirements for man’s salvation were perfectly met by Christ on the cross, their eternal security is really a “no-brainer.” It’s only when men look to self that they doubt.

By your posts you seem to think it is

In truth, the only thing you can glean from my posts is that eternal security is a Biblical reality and a position from which I make my arguments. All my arguments posted on this forum are based on what has been revealed in the Epistles regarding the salvation God Himself procured on behalf of men through the cross of Christ.

The Catholic church teaches that works of the flesh will not save us, but only obedience to Jesus’ command that we be born of water, and the spirit.

Notice at all what’s missing in this formula?

This, we believe, is the justification that happens at baptism.

Yet Paul states something quite differently:Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand…”

“obey all that I have commanded you”.

Which is addressed to those who would believe (enter into salvation) through their preaching the word of the cross.

Obedience, although facilitated by grace, is the work of a person. It is a work that can only successfully be done in faith, and therefore as sacred work, as opposed to a work of the flesh (not based on faith).

But it’s only the obedience of Christ, His substitutionary sacrifice on our behalf, that is the divine means by which God saves the sinner who turns from unbelief to belief in Him. Men cannot be saved, or justified, based on their own obedience. They are saved and justified through faith in the Obedient One who obediently died in their stead. Salvation and justification are always taught in the Epistles as by grace (being gifted) through faith. And the OBJECT of salvation faith is always, within the Epistles, the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. " Titus 3:7

Again, this is addressed to those who have already “believed in God.” Not merely that He exists, but that He Himself provided for their salvation and justification in/through the Person and work of His beloved Son. These are the ones Paul is exhorting to be careful to maintain good works. Not “for” salvation, but “because.” This is demonstrated below in the Titus 2:11-15 passage.

Notice the apostle does not say that the good (sacred) works will “save” a person, only God’s grace can do that, but that they are good and profitable, (and will be judged at the resurrection).

Nothing in the passage states anything about the resurrection. You’re imposing that thought. Again, Paul is addressing those who ARE saved.

To whom belongs the work of “be careful to maintain”?

The SAVED.

Why does the apostle write this, if it is not the responsiblity of the believer? Done by grace, through faith, certainly, but still our part in this process.

There is no “process” of salvation or justification being taught by Paul in his letter to Titus. Here is the spirit and purpose of his letter:Titus 2:11-15 "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority."It is Christ alone who redeemed the believer from all sins (i.e., "every lawless deed), and by His obedient, sacrificial work on the cross, He purified men for God’s own possession. By the ransom price paid for their redemption they are forever His, and based on that identity, are exhorted to be zealous FOR good works for which they are saved. The “good works” are not at all a part of a saving or justifying “process” here, but the RESULT of having been redeemed, belonging now to God through faith in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23, Paul is consistent in his teaching).

 

[mikeledes]

In passages form Ezekiel, Sandunksy, God is establishing a universal principle that He immediately applies to Israel, but includes all mankind in its broadest sense. Namely that God will judge each person according to his works:

Ezekiel 18:30

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD.

Everyone will be held accountable for their own actions. This is a principle reaffirmed throughout the New Testament:

Matthew 16:27

27"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

2 Corinthians 5:10

**10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. **

Revelation 13:13

**13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. **

And how are we “recompensed:”

6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Now going back to Ezekiel, God is clearly talking about the righteous. I’m not trying to add something that wasn’t intended. I’m reading what it actually says.

Ezekiel 18:24

**24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. **

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

God says “righteous,” not “so-called righteous,” “righteous in their own estimation,” or “righteous in the estimation of the people.” So He is clearly talking about those who possess the righteousness of God. Otherwise, he would not refer to them as righteous and contrast them with the wicked. Secondly, verse 26 states that they committed iniquity and “dieth in them.” So they die in their sin. If they die in their sin, they have not persevered to the end. By wilfully sinning, they have rejected God and his gift of righteousness.

Of course, those of the “righteous” who do not persevere till the end are not of the elect, but they were genuinely righteous nonetheless. The elect will never perish because they will persevere in Christ until the end.

Regarding John 15, eternal securitty Protestants have clearly accepted, including in this forum, that the cut off branches refer to genuine Christians, though they do not believe it supports loss of salvation. But let’s say, for argument’s sake, that you’re right. Your explanation of Romans 11:20-22

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

He is talking to genuinely justified Christians and telling them not to boast but FEAR. If He did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare them either. They must continue in God’s kindness or they will be cut off. Once again I say regarding both passages in John and Romans, you cannot be cut off of something you were never really a part of.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

**21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses**.

What will the heavenly Father do to them? What did the King do to the servant whose debt he had forgiven? He rescinded the forgiveness he had granted and gave him to the torturers. That is an image of eternal damnation. Jesus told the Twelve that this will happen to them if they do not forgive.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Galatians 6: 7-9

**7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.**

Only those who are already spiritual can do the works pleasing to God (sowing to the Spirit) and hence reap eternal life. Reception of grace and the Holy Spirit must precede the works we do. They are the outward manifestation of the love of God poured into our hearts.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

If you commit a mortal sin, you lose sanctifying grace, and therefore, justification; if you die in a condition of known, and unconfessed mortal sin, you go to hell. Correct?

No, this is not correct. You are conflating sanctifying grace with justification. Justification happens at baptism. The soul is washed with water and the spirit, and regenerated (separated from original sin). When sin occurs after that, it interferes with the working of sanctifying grace that was infused at that time. Sin separates us from God, and depletes grace, and prevents one from growing in grace. For such situations, the sacrament of reconciliation is available to wash it away, and restore one to the baptized state. With regard to unconfessed sin, it is God who decides. Mortal sins separate us from God. I think what happens at the moment of death depends upon the attitude of one’s heart, which only God knows. If a person is killed by a bus on the way to confession?

That’s what I said: works are not excluded from your soteriology (doctrine of salvation). However, most Catholics deny that their works earn salvation from a standpoint of strict merit; nevertheless, salvation can be lost on the basis of strict de-merit; at any rate, works are not completely excluded.

Only because we see salvation as a process, and not a single event in time. In terms of justification, works are not involved at all. After baptism, and the reception of saving grace, one is transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, so they enter into the judgement of the righteous. A righteous person demonstrates the works of God (sacred works) rather than works of the flesh, by which no one will see God.

You, speaking for yourself, said above that, “Works are a determining factor in salvation to the extent that one must do the work of God in order to be saved.” What am I misunderstanding concerning your statement?

You misunderstand because 1) you make no distinction between works of the flesh and sacred works 2) you deny that the human person is a participant in the Kingdom of God (life of salvation) 3) you do not believe that faith belongs to the person, and must be exercised by that person in order for salvation to be obtained (you believe it is all up to God)

Originally Posted by guanophore
Apparently you have not been given the grace to understand the difference between the Works of God, and works of the flesh.
sandusky;2087865:

You’re being condescending; I understand, perfectly, the difference between the two.

You are right, it is condescending. However, you have never given any indication that you do recognize that there is a difference, and have not indicated that you find any place for them in salvation. A person cannot be saved without doing the work of God.

That is a contradiction; either God’s will is able to keep one from jumping ship, or God’s will is unable to keep one from jumping ship.

It is not a contradiction. It is a cooperative work. Of course God is ABLE to keep someone from jumping out. That is not the issue. The issue is that the person has a choice to make, and God will not violate the free will with which he has created man.

 

[guanophore]

 Belief that the saved are eternally secure (in Christ) is something "understood" when the saved fully comprehend the doctrines of the cross revealed in the Epistles (especially Paul's).  When they understand that ALL the requirements for man's salvation were perfectly met by Christ on the cross, their eternal security is really a "no-brainer."

I guess this is the point of departure, then, from Catholic teaching. Catholicism teaches that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is a finished work, and is entirely satisfying in payment of our debt of sin. However, we see that human beings have a responsibility to recognize, apprehend, and persever according to the grace provided in order to avail ourselves of it’s vast treasures.

It’s only when men look to self that they doubt.

Let’s not leave out the devil!

In truth, the only thing you can glean from my posts is that eternal security is a Biblical reality and a position from which I make my arguments. All my arguments posted on this forum are based on what has been revealed in the Epistles regarding the salvation God Himself procured on behalf of men through the cross of Christ.Notice at all what’s missing in this formula?

Faith is not missing from the formula, Apo. If you read the baptismal liturgy, you will find profession of the creed, and the person vows of faith taken at the time of baptism. Catholics believe that baptism is the normative expression of saving faith. Please recall what Peter did with the house of Cornelius, and Stephen with the Ethiopian.

Yet Paul states something quite differently:Rom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand…"Which is addressed to those who would believe (enter into salvation) through their preaching the word of the cross.But it’s only the obedience of Christ, His substitutionary sacrifice on our behalf, that is the divine means by which God saves the sinner who turns from unbelief to belief in Him.

It is not different, Apo. Both parts go together. What did Peter tell the crowd on Pentecost after he preached the sermon? They said “what must we do to be saved?” Repent, and be baptized, every one of you. Each person has a responsibility to respond to the saving grace, and demonstrate the reception of it.

(continued)

 

[guanophore]

Men cannot be saved, or justified, based on their own obedience. They are saved and justified through faith in the Obedient One who obediently died in their stead. Salvation and justification are always taught in the Epistles as by grace (being gifted) through faith. And the OBJECT of salvation faith is always, within the Epistles, the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

Of course, but without obedience, neither can we become grafted into that true vine through Whom we are saved. Yes, Jesus is the subject, but people are the object. We are the ones upon whom the grace operates. And, throughout the epistles, we are exhorted to do our part.

Again, this is addressed to those who have already “believed in God.” Not merely that He exists, but that He Himself provided for their salvation and justification in/through the Person and work of His beloved Son. These are the ones Paul is exhorting to be careful to maintain good works. Not “for” salvation, but “because.”

We have no disagreement on this point.

This is demonstrated below in the Titus 2:11-15 passage.Nothing in the passage states anything about the resurrection.  You're imposing that thought.  Again, Paul is addressing those who ARE saved.

" For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." Titus 2:11-14

Yes, for the saved. I suppose you could say I am imposing thought. If it is not the resurrection of which the Apostle speaks when he says “awaiting our blessed hope” then what might it be?

My point is that the salvation of all men is based upon God’s grace, and works in us to “live and to do” His will (training us). Zealousness for good deeds originates from within the person, as a result of sanctifying grace.

 The SAVED.There is no "*process*" of salvation or justification being taught by Paul in his letter to Titus.  Here is the spirit and purpose of his letter:Titus 2:11-15  "For the grace of God has appeared, **bringing salvation** to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly **in the present age**, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, **who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds**. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority."It is Christ alone who *redeemed* the believer from all sins (i.e., "*every lawless deed*), and by His obedient, sacrificial work on the cross, He *purified* men for God's own possession.  By the ransom price paid for their redemption they are forever His, and based on that identity, are exhorted to be zealous FOR good works for which they are saved.  The "*good works*" are not at all a part of a saving or justifying "*process*" here, but the RESULT of having been redeemed, belonging now to God through faith in Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23, Paul is consistent in his teaching).

I don’t think it is necessary for you to see salvation as a process in order to be saved, Apo. This is Catholic teaching, though. The process of purification and the good works to which we are called must proceed out from the foundation of saving grace. They are not discontinuous from it. One cannot be saved apart from doing the Work of God.

 

[Truthstalker]

I have wondered if there is a subtle strawman at play here, and too readily Catholics are defending it. The problem is that Apo and all are defending something that is true, but there is more to the story.

When we believe, are we not cooperating?

And what about this verse:

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

 

[guanophore]

I have wondered if there is a subtle strawman at play here, and too readily Catholics are defending it. The problem is that Apo and all are defending something that is true, but there is more to the story.

When we believe, are we not cooperating?

Yes, and I think the OSAS would agree with that statement also. It is just that they don’t see a continuous connection between the cooperation based on belief with the justification that occurred. Or, if they see them at all connected, it does not show. Perhaps it is a semantics problem, that we refer to this connection as “saving faith”. Because for the OSAS, gettng “saved” occurs at one point in time, and the rest is classified as the process of sanctification (if I am wrong about this I am sure I will receive correction). Catholics consider the process of sanctificaton (becoming like Christ) to be part and parcel of justification, not separated from it.

 

[Linkowski]

Yes, and I think the OSAS would agree with that statement also. It is just that they don’t see a continuous connection between the cooperation based on belief with the justification that occurred. Or, if they see them at all connected, it does not show. Perhaps it is a semantics problem, that we refer to this connection as “saving faith”. Because for the OSAS, gettng “saved” occurs at one point in time, and the rest is classified as the process of sanctification (if I am wrong about this I am sure I will receive correction). Catholics consider the process of sanctificaton (becoming like Christ) to be part and parcel of justification, not separated from it.

You are correct and this makes a huge difference…I also want to say that if I was striving to “cooperate”, I would be boasting for sure. There is not one strain of boasting in salvation…

 

[guanophore]

You are correct and this makes a huge difference…I also want to say that if I was striving to “cooperate”, I would be boasting for sure. There is not one strain of boasting in salvation…

I think it depends upon how you think of “striving”. For example, a fruit tree does not stand there and “will” itself to produce fruit. It is not by some sort of “effort” of the trunk that fruit appears. It is a natural function of a healthy tree that is properly fed and watered.

In the same way, the Christian “works out salvation by fear and trembling” (meaning, in humility - with no grounds for boasting) because all the “striving” is based on remaining on the vine. If we are rooted and grounded in Him, and remain in Him, then the fruit will grow without us having to “squeeze” it out somehow. The sacred works are all founded upon faith, and are directed by grace, not of the flesh.

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

In passages form Ezekiel, Sandunksy, God is establishing a universal principle that He immediately applies to Israel, but includes all mankind in its broadest sense. Namely that God will judge each person according to his works:

You are full of assumptions, Mike; here is a statement made by me on the thread from which this thread has come:

You’re spinning that as well, in that, you left out my conclusion to which your paraphrase of my words led; namely, Paul sets forth the standard of God’s evaluation of people apart from the Gospel.

That standard is works.

Everyone, believer, and unbeliever, will be judged on the words they say, and on the works they do (Ps 62:12; Pro 4:12; Mt 12:36, 16:27; 1 Cor 3:12ff et al); that is what the whole of scripture says, not just what Romans 2 says, and that is what I believe.

Is that clearer for you?

However, for the believer, his works, or lack thereof, determine his reward in eternity; but he, himself, does not come into judgment/condemnation for sin, because his sin was judged at the cross (Jn 5:24; Col 2:13-15, et al). You can only deny that; you’ll never disprove it.

Is that clearer for you, Mike?

mikeledes:

God says “righteous,” not “so-called righteous,” “righteous in their own estimation,” or “righteous in the estimation of the people.” So He is clearly talking about those who possess the righteousness of God. Otherwise, he would not refer to them as righteous and contrast them with the wicked. Secondly, verse 26 states that they committed iniquity and “dieth in them.” So they die in their sin. If they die in their sin, they have not persevered to the end. By wilfully sinning, they have rejected God and his gift of righteousness.

You continue trying to make Ezekiel say something that he is not saying. Let’s look elsewhere.1 Corinthians 11:29-32

29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.In the above passage, many of those believers were weak, sick, and some died in their sin (but, all of their transgressions had been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13); Paul clearly says that was discipline, and not a loss of eternal life, because on the promise of God, Christ’s will never perish (cf Heb 12:4-11; notice the severity of God in the discipline referred to as “scourging…not joyful, but sorrowful”).

(That passage demonstrates that It is possible for one of Christ’s to sin to the point where God kills him; but that does not mean he loses salvation.)

mikeledes:

He is talking to genuinely justified Christians and telling them not to boast but FEAR. If He did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare them either. They must continue in God’s kindness or they will be cut off. Once again I say regarding both passages in John and Romans, you cannot be cut off of something you were never really a part of.

Romans 9:6b…For they are not all Israel who are descended from IsraelLikewise, not all of those who profess Christ, are Christ’s.

But, it is possible to be among His, and to even look like His (cf Mt 13:25-30). You are assuming that all of those being addressed in Rom 11 are truly Christ’s; I’m certain that not all of them were, but if any in that situation were cut off, and, if what is meant by “cut off” is “to lose salvation,” then they were never Christ’s, because His will never perish.

mikeledes:

What will the heavenly Father do to them? What did the King do to the servant whose debt he had forgiven? He rescinded the forgiveness he had granted and gave him to the torturers. That is an image of eternal damnation. Jesus told the Twelve that this will happen to them if they do not forgive.

You read every presupposition that have into the explanations that you give. That cannot be, as you say it is, “an image of eternal damnation.”Matthew 18:34

“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers **until he should repay all that was owed him.**There is no opportunity for repayment in hell.

That is a parable, and parables generally teach one point; the point of this parable is that the one forgiven by God in Christ, must be forgiving of others (cf Eph 4:32).

mikeledes:

Only those who are already spiritual can do the works pleasing to God (sowing to the Spirit) and hence reap eternal life…

That’s exactly what I said to you in my last post, Mike.