Paragraph 2025 sums it up:
So sin is now just a kinda, sorta thing. Wonderful again. It’s not an issue of salvation, since as long as you accept Christ then you’re saved, so even if you sin many times as long as you’ve already accepted Christ it no longer matters, right?
A HUGE difference indeed! Catholicism is notorious for confounding justification and sanctification. And it always will as long it continues to view salvation as a process which includes men’s works.
Absolutely! And Paul concurs using Abraham (the father of all who believe) as an example:Rom 4:2-5 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (his belief) was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,No boasting, no works. Faith alone is credited by God as righteousness. This principle goes even as far back as Abraham. Biblically, it’s an open and shut case.
A non-catholic forum member had a doozy of an explanation for this parable (bolded sections my emphasis):
sandusky said:No; the dividing in that passage is done on the basis of whether or not one is a sheep, or a goat.
It is after Jesus divides them on that basis that the sheep are told of, and commended for, the acts that they had performed—the significance of which they seem not understand until He explans their significance.
It is also important to understand that the acts His sheep had done were to “these brothers of mine, even the least of them…” (v40). IOW, His other sheep; the sheep on the right received His emissaries, and after believing the gospel, they shared what they had with, and cared for, His other sheep.
It is the not the care of the poor, and needy generally that Christ is concerned with, but with the care of His sheep, by others of His sheep particularly.
sandusky said:
confounding justification and sanctification. And it always will as long it continues to view salvation as a process which includes men’s works.Absolutely!Yeah right… the only notoriety here is that of n-Cs who ignore the scriptures and persist in teaching another gospel that neither the Word of God nor the 2,000 years of Christian history supports.
is credited by God as righteousness. This principle goes even as far back as Abraham. Biblically, it’s an open and shut case.Keep saying it and maybe someone will believe that propaganda.
(That’s what Hitler’s propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbles said. “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. ")It is not a confounding, but a continuum. You yourself admit that one’s works are essential in the process of sanctification! The only difference is that you have separated the event of justification from sanctification, whereas, Catholics see in the teachings of Jesus a seamless garment. Yes, justification is by faith alone, and the teaching goes as far back as Abraham. I would say it was also offered to Adam and Eve, and Noah, and others before Abe even. Why should this confound you?
In that Matthew passage there’s no judgment process going on there. It’s a separating process. At His bodily return to this earth, at the end of the age, Christ, as a shepherd separates His sheep from the goats. The sheep enter His earthly, Millennial kingdom, the goats are cast off to await the White Throne judgment which they must stand before at the end of His Millennial Rule on earth (Rev. 20:11).
There is that “alone” word again. To bad that is just your spin on biblical teaching and not what the bible really states.
If His work cannot be added unto, then why does Paul say that he makes up in His own body what is lacking in the suffering of Christ?
Cast off to what?!
I find this statement astonishing! How can anyone even become aware that they are in sin, until they hear the gospel? Is not the unrepentant heart the one MOST in need of the gospel?!
I think 4000 trumps your 2000. And this side of the cross, I think Paul trumps Rome.
I agree. But I hope you’ll READ the truth enough, in print, and you’ll come to believe it.Keep saying it and maybe someone will believe that propaganda.
That might be true if faith wasn’t involved: “And Abraham believed God…”
Egos? No. God has made sure of that by making salvation a gift by GRACE through FAITH, not as a result of works, “that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).
Reading God’s Word and believing it are two different things, producing two different results.
We’re not playing here.
You can’t be serious in light of the scandals even within the RCC. And history bears out that unrighteousness is practiced even by those in authority. In Matt. 13:24-30, when are the “tares” cut down?
This was what Christ had against the Pharisees. They were the ones who publicly displayed their “piety” and works the most. But they had no faith.
Salvation is not, nor ever was, a Catholic vs. Protestant issue. We’re not arguing whose church is better, but whether God saves BY our works or by His grace through our faith, as Paul clearly states - apart from works.
That sounds silly Apo! Paul IS a Roman, and wrote from Rome, to Rome. He is a trump OF Rome!
Maybe not salvation itself, but the manner in which it occurs is certainly at the very heart of the Protestant Reformation , would you not agree?
Yeah …right… but no one can read about Abraham and sit there and say that his actions weren’t what his faith was judged on.
it.Gee… so no one can read the Word of God and get it right unless they agree with your personal interpretation? That’s pretty audacious, and regardless of your assertion that the OT supports your beliefs I’d say that since even the Jews do not share your beliefs and since Our Lord did not teach what you believe (as has been pounded into the ground in so much debate.) that your statement is just more rhetorical propaganda that the Word of God and Christian history have not and never will support.
wasn’t involved:
" (Eph. 2:8-9).Oh no… n-Cs never boast.
But they’ll contend that theirs is the only correct belief til hell freezes over and run down the faith of anyone else who scripturally disagrees with them. IMV that takes some serious ego.Yet the fact is that I and my Catholic brothers and sisters have (and do) read the Word of God, as should be evident from the mounds of scripture that have been brought forth which plainly support the Catholic belief and prove that Sola Fide is an unbalanced teaching (at least) and an unscriptural one (at worst!), and yet we Catholics find something else in the Word of God and it disagrees with your teaching.
Yeah… I know…I’m not either.
What?! Catholics can’t point out the slack and immoral members of n-C religions as symptomatic of bad teaching? I guess it’s okay for n-Cs to seek to indict Catholic faith because of some individuals, but if I point out something that I know from personal experience as a deacon and Sunday School teacher in an AoG church or active member of a Southern Baptist, I’m suddenly not serious?
displayed their “piety” and works the most. But they had no faith.My point above remains. Without a correct scriptural teaching on works in salvation, which, make no mistake, means a rejection of Sola Fide any believer’s journey of faith is greatly hampered.
We Catholics sure can’t tell from the rhetoric offered in this discussion so far!
Apophasis does not really understand the Catholic teaching, otherwise, he would not separate justification from sanctification, and say that they are “confounded.” He has admitted that they are “confounded” but he believes that they are to Catholics, rather than himself. This shows that he does not understand Catholic teaching. I think he does understand that the Catholic Church teaches that we are justified by grace, through faith, but rejects that the Church teaches this because he has met many Catholics (apparently) that are not well educated on this point. He also understands that there is complete agreement between the CAtholic and OSAS positions that obedience is required, that we are created to do good works, and that we are accountable to the discipline of God if we fail to walk in them. Other than that, he most often posts against a fallacy of Catholic teachng that lives in his head, and the heads of other OSAS believers.
Once the elect are saved - they are saved for good…there is no justified non-elect group that goes through the exercise of “justified”
…“not justified”
…“justified” …“not justified” …“justified” …“not justified” …Hi One,Once the elect are saved - they are saved for good…there is no justified non-elect group that goes through the exercise of “justified”
Perseverance is guaranteed for the elect.
That would mean something if your position was biblical.Once the elect are saved - they are saved for good…there is no justified non-elect group that goes through the exercise of “justified”
Perseverance is guaranteed for the elect.
[SIGN]**…you who are protected by the power of God through faithOnce the elect are saved - they are saved for good…there is no justified non-elect group that goes through the exercise of “justified”
Perseverance is guaranteed for the elect.
