"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[OneForTruth]

Yep, it says so right here:

James 2:17 KJV Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:17 DRB So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

James 2 is very clear…I am not sure how anyone can say what you are saying with all due respect. You are using a very small portion of James 2 to defend your point whereas I have a very large portion to defend my point in this case…

James 2:14-24 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Can this KIND of faith save him???

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Again…we are saved by living faith - faith that works…NOT FAITH AND WORKS

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

We are speaking here only of the exhibition of faith - the characteristics of the faith…and so it continues…

19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

What KIND of faith is this - about as good as demonic faith!

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

It produces the godly fruit for which it was designed (Eph. 2:10). Just as a fruit tree has not fulfilled its goal until it bears fruit, so also faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Of course…in this sense…you are not justified by faith alone. Faith that is alone is DEAD faith…this is the sense in which he is driving at.The whole passage is about the nature of the faith and this is quite apparent. This word justified is also not being used in the same sense as is in Romans…and clearly is being shown in the sense that is indicated in the bold print below…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

What do we see over and over - show me…a man may say…James was against those empty tares in the Church who evidenced that they were not of the fold.

The faith and the works - YES - are both joined to Abraham BUT the relationship of each to Abraham are different. Faith comes first…then comes action as a fruit of the faith…A faith THAT works.

 

[OneForTruth]

By the way…I would like to ask one question as well…just how many works do I have to do?? Just an add-on to my previous posting.

 

[Harsalter]

By the way…I would like to ask one question as well…just how many works do I have to do??

After baptism and accepting Christ as your Savior/Confirmation, simply try to live by the Ten Commandments, live by the ‘Golden Rule’, and when you fail go to confession. That is works.

And it works!

 

[OneForTruth]

After baptism and accepting Christ as your Savior/Confirmation, simply try to live by the Ten Commandments, live by the ‘Golden Rule’, and when you fail go to confession. That is works.

And it works!

Please give proper support for your statements and answer my posting in detail…that will give more credence to what you have to say.

Thanks.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

After baptism and accepting Christ as your Savior/Confirmation, simply try to live by the Ten Commandments, live by the ‘Golden Rule’, and when you fail go to confession. That is works.

And it works!

The problem with your statement is that we can never follow the Law 100% EVER. The Law was given to us through Moses so we know what sin is–not to save us. In order to be saved from the Law we have to be perfect in keeping it. That is just not possible. Hence we need a Savior. Christ came and not only fullfilled the Law but also terminated it.

We are to live by the Spirit rather then by self-effort. That is the New Covenant of Christ.

 

[mikeledes]

Here are a couple of links for you Sandunsky and all who are interested:

catholicapologetics.net/qb105

matt1618.freeyellow.com/fallaway.html

ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9509fea2.asp

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

By the way…I would like to ask one question as well…just how many works do I have to do?? Just an add-on to my previous posting.

It is not about quantity. It’s not an attempt to outweigh our sins with good works. Its about conforming our lives to the free gift of righteousness we received.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Harsalter]

Please give proper support for your statements and answer my posting in detail…that will give more credence to what you have to say.

Thanks.

You asked a question and I answered it. I’m not here to unbrain-wash a protestant. I CAME HOME TO THE TRUE CHURCH.

So many protestants are hung up on sola scriptura, as they don’t have church leadership and 2000 years of tradition and revelations. So they have nothing else but limited means to support their faith.

But I’ll give you this. As far as when you fail and need to go to confession, John 20:23 is pretty specific in giving the Church and our priests this Sacrament.

“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

But then, John 20:23 is one of the 96 Bible passges Protestants either ignore or choke on when they hear them.

And for anyone to say they don’t need to go to confession, they can go directly to God themslves, woe to them. God set it up this way, and unless you are claiming to be God, it isn’t your decision to make. As I recall, Adam and Eve also played God. What a mess that became.

You left the Church, or followed others that did, you try to support your decision of following a church that Christ did not create.

Although my dad a baptist preacher, I got wise and converted from protestant to Catholicism. You cannot believe how better I sleep at night!

Too many holes in that protestant theology, what little of it there is. I didn’t sleep well as a protester of Christ’s Church.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Thanks Mike; we have now entered the realm of argumentum ad nauseum, and so I will state once more before I puke, Christ’s promise is, His will never perish. :tiphat:

Now your starting to get it! “His” will never perish" describes his Church, the Catholic Church. Any other explaination is unbiblical! You can’t disprove that.

Of course you can try if vain if that makes you “feel” better.

 

[Harsalter]

The problem with your statement is that we can never follow the Law 100% EVER. The Law was given to us through Moses so we know what sin is–not to save us. In order to be saved from the Law we have to be perfect in keeping it. That is just not possible. Hence we need a Savior. Christ came and not only fullfilled the Law but also terminated it.

We are to live by the Spirit rather then by self-effort.

Hence we need a savior? You bet we do and what’s the deal with protestants in that they don’t understand that Catholics DO THAT? Catholics accept Christ as their Savior or they would never be Confirmed. But to accept him today, and deny him the rest of your life is not a road to salvation. And without the sacrament of reconciliation, the road gets real tough.

And if you think you can get to heaven without ‘self-effort’, you will never get there. IMO, that’s the problem with protestants, they don’t want to put in the effort to get into heaven. They want very little theology and demand a “once saved, always saved…” convenient road to heaven with lots of nice, clean, highway rest area’s along the way.

You won’t get to heaven by accident! And you have been given free will to decide whether you want it or not. It takes effort! And you may never get the complete job done. That’s what purgatory is for. But you have to get to purgatory first.

 

[mikeledes]

Thanks Mike; we have now entered the realm of argumentum ad nauseum, and so I will state once more before I puke, Christ’s promise is, His will never perish. :tiphat:

It has become ad naseum because you have accepted an incorrect premise. The “never perish” argument I’ve adressed in another post. The promise of never perishing applies to those who are in Christ and remain in Christ.

The words of Romans are pretty clear. They are clearly addressed to genuine Christians. Or is there another definition for “you” and “continue” that I am not aware of.

I have also listed some verses from Hebrews that you have not addressed. Of course, you can do that when your stomach is better.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Harsalter]

The problem with your statement is that we can never follow the Law 100% EVER. The Law was given to us through Moses so we know what sin is–not to save us. In order to be saved from the Law we have to be perfect in keeping it. That is just not possible.

Yes, it is impossible or almost impossible to live without sin. That is why Christ gave the Church the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). Again, I quote John 20:23,

“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

Now what does a protestant do if he believes the above scripture? Do as I did, and convert so you can go to confession.

I don’t want to dominate the discussion, so I’ll bow out and let others contribute. I’ve made too many posts the past few moments.

 

[apophasis]

mikeledes:

Yes it is possible. But the problem is that Paul is adressing the passage to those who have fully been incorporated into God’s people:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

You cannot cannot continue in something you were never a part of. If you were never in God’s kindness, you cannot “continue” in it. Also note the “you”. He is talking to genuine Christians.

Yes, in Romans chapter eleven Paul is talking TO Christians but not ABOUT Christians. Romans eleven is as much about believers losing (cut off from) their salvation as the Harry Potter books are about Christianity.

Paul’s talking about national Israel being temporarily broken off from the blessings of Abraham, and at this present time (during this Church age) not partaking of “the rich root of the olive tree” (vs. 17) to which, as a result, Gentiles have been grafted into through faith in Christ alone (see Gal. 3:14):Rom 11:11 "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression (unbelief) salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous."The context of Romans eleven is salvation coming to Gentiles through the preaching of the cross (the gospel) during this present Church age, when Israel as a nation (not all individual Jews) has been broken off from the “blessing of Abraham.”

Paul states in verse 20 that they (the nation) “were broken off for their UNBELIEF,” and in like manner, Gentiles, who are now grafted in are to fear because they stand only by their FAITH. And he warns “Gentiledom” that if God did not spare the natural (cultivated) branches because of unbelief, he certainly won’t spare you Gentiles (a wild branch) for your unbelief.

Paul is stating in Romans eleven that there will come a time when Gentiles, as a people, will no longer embrace faith in Christ alone. And God will again, because of Gentile unbelief, turn to national Israel as He once turned to the Gentiles because of their unbelief (see Acts 13:46). Which Paul calls their future “fulfillment” (vs. 12), their “acceptance” and “life from the dead” (cf. Eze. chapters 36-37).

Romans chapter eleven is Paul’s warning to “Gentiledom” in two areas: (1) turning from faith in Christ alone; and 2) becoming arrogant toward the natural branches (national Israel, vs. 25). Because as the nation was cut off from the “blessing of Abraham” (the “rich root of the olive tree” - divine justification based on faith alone) because of unbelief, so will He do to “Gentiledom” for the same reason. But it’s far more dangerous for Gentiles because Israel (nationally) is still connected to God by unconditional covenants and prophetic, earthly promises which He will yet faithfully fulfill in that nation (vss. 28-29).

 

[Sean_Boyle]

[sign]…you who are protected by the power of God through faith[/sign]

[sign]
for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Pet 1:4, 5
[/sign]

Great another biblical reference to purgatory! The elect are the faithful that LIVED righteous lives which are awaiting the final judgement.

The elect enter purgatory so the stain of sin in ones live, the ones you are directly responsible for, can be removed to a renewed purity and the eventual entry in to heaven.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Now your starting to get it! “His” will never perish" describes his Church, the Catholic Church. Any other explaination is unbiblical! You can’t disprove that.

Of course you can try if vain if that makes you “feel” better.

Hi Sean,
How do you get the CC out of HIS. You are putting God in a box when you make a statement like this.

What is your take on Romans 10:5–13?

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Cross references:Romans 10:5 : Lev 18:5; Neh 9:29; Ezek 20:11, 13, 21; Rom 7:10
Romans 10:6 : Rom 9:30
Romans 10:6 : Deut 30:12
Romans 10:7 : Luke 8:31
Romans 10:7 : Heb 13:20
Romans 10:8 : Deut 30:14
Romans 10:9 : Matt 10:32; Luke 12:8; Rom 14:9; 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11
Romans 10:9 : Acts 16:31; Rom 4:24
Romans 10:9 : Acts 2:24
Romans 10:11 : Is 28:16; Rom 9:33
Romans 10:12 : Rom 3:22, 29
Romans 10:12 : Acts 10:36
Romans 10:12 : Rom 3:29
Romans 10:13 : Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21

It doesnt mention you have to be part of the CC for salvation. So it seems to me your statement is unbiblical.

 

[guanophore]

Bob, please provide book, chapter, and verse where Jesus says, “do what I commanded and be saved, don’t and be damned.”

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:35-4:1

I’m assuming the main force of this passage for you is v36. The Gk word translated ”obey” is, apeitheō, and it means disbelieve. So, the lack of obedience spoken of there is not believing (cf jn 3:18).

It’s all about FAITH.

I am not separating the passage from itself. What I am showing is that faith, the sacred work of persons in response to the grace of God is an obedient faith. It is a faith that works, that follows commandments.

That doesn’t answer the request; in fact, none of your reply answers my request.

If you are looking for a verse that somehow states that salvation is not based on faith, you will not find one. However, you will find a lot of verses that say there are MANY different things (including obedience) involved in saving faith.

Originally Posted by guanophore
So, you are saying that God created man to live forever in fellowship with Himself, then put him in a position to be damned by giving him a commandment he was not able to keep?

No; that’s what you are saying; you read your presuppositions not only into scripture, but also into what I say.

Well, please clarify. It is not a presupposition of mine, I assure you, because it never entered my mind that such a thing would be possible! My understanding of God does not have any space in it to put the possibility that he would require obedience that was not possible to achieve. You said that man was not “able” to keep the commandments. Does that mean that God put humans in a position where they were supposed to obey, but did not provide the ability to do so? (grace?)

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Hi Sean,
How do you get the CC out of HIS. You are putting God in a box when you make a statement like this.

Nope! It would be putting God in a box if the Church was anything but the Bride of Christ like if you said his church was one of the protestant churches. That would be putting God in a box.

What is your take on Romans 10:5–13?

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Cross references:Romans 10:5 : Lev 18:5; Neh 9:29; Ezek 20:11, 13, 21; Rom 7:10
Romans 10:6 : Rom 9:30
Romans 10:6 : Deut 30:12
Romans 10:7 : Luke 8:31
Romans 10:7 : Heb 13:20
Romans 10:8 : Deut 30:14
Romans 10:9 : Matt 10:32; Luke 12:8; Rom 14:9; 1 Cor 12:3; Phil 2:11
Romans 10:9 : Acts 16:31; Rom 4:24
Romans 10:9 : Acts 2:24
Romans 10:11 : Is 28:16; Rom 9:33
Romans 10:12 : Rom 3:22, 29
Romans 10:12 : Acts 10:36
Romans 10:12 : Rom 3:29
Romans 10:13 : Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21

All excellant verses that explain salvation thru Christ and his bride the Church who are one.

It doesnt mention you have to be part of the CC for salvation. So it seems to me your statement is unbiblical.

Neither did I nor anyone else mention that salvation is only for members of the Catholic Church.

You are a part of the Catholic Church like it or not. You believe in Christ. You believe that he is God. You believe that scripture is an infallible guide/aid to living a christian life. All of those beliefs were protected through the ages for you to believe by Christ’s Church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hence we need a savior? You bet we do and what’s the deal with protestants in that they don’t understand that Catholics DO THAT? Catholics accept Christ as their Savior or they would never be Confirmed. But to accept him today, and deny him the rest of your life is not a road to salvation. And without the sacrament of reconciliation, the road gets real tough.

And if you think you can get to heaven without ‘self-effort’, you will never get there. IMO, that’s the problem with protestants, they don’t want to put in the effort to get into heaven. They want very little theology and demand a “once saved, always saved…” convenient road to heaven with lots of nice, clean, highway rest area’s along the way.

You won’t get to heaven by accident! And you have been given free will to decide whether you want it or not. It takes effort! And you may never get the complete job done. That’s what purgatory is for. But you have to get to purgatory first.

Hi,

I know you said you were leaving. But, I just wanted to tell you that I/we(meaning born again believers) put ALOT of effort into laying down our lives and picking up the cross of Jesus daily(might be using wrong terminology ) **I go out and tell people the Good News, I **try to be a christian example to my husband and kids and all who know me, **I **study The Word of God, **I go to church, I run a homeless ministry in my church, I **pray, **I **trust in God’s promises, **I **try to be there for anyone who needs me, I am teaching my children to know and love the Lord . I think that is enough said about REAL HARD EFFORT. BUT-----------

Will that get me into heaven------ ABSOLUTELY NOT!:nope: The only reason I do any of that is because I BELIEVE and have FAITH in GOD:extrahappy:

If you look at my above paragraph-- Dont I sound conceited!! ABSOLUTELY!!

God justifies us by His grace through faith in Christ(=salvation) Then, I do all of the above BECAUSE I love my Lord and believe in Him and want to please Him. I do not do any works because I think I have to for salvation. Christ Freed us from that SO we could do works freely out of love to honor HIM. We are being obedient out of love not because we think we have to. AMEN!!!:extrahappy:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Neither did I nor anyone else mention that salvation is only for members of the Catholic Church.

You are a part of the Catholic Church like it or not. You believe in Christ. You believe that he is God. You believe that scripture is an infallible guide/aid to living a christian life. All of those beliefs were protected through the ages for you to believe by Christ Church.

Hi Sean,

Make it a small c–catholic church then I can live with that.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Hi Sean,

Make it a small c–catholic church then I can live with that.

Your fast!