"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[ALLFORHIM]

Your fast!

That is just because I was here at probably the same time you posted:thumbsup: hehe

Being on these forums has improved my typing skills.

 

[Harsalter]

Hi,

I know you said you were leaving. But, I just wanted to tell you that I/we(meaning born again believers) put ALOT of effort into laying down our lives and picking up the cross of Jesus daily(might be using wrong terminology ) **I go out and tell people the Good News, I **try to be a christian example to my husband and kids and all who know me, **I **study The Word of God, **I go to church, I run a homeless ministry in my church, I **pray, **I **trust in God’s promises, **I **try to be there for anyone who needs me, I am teaching my children to know and love the Lord . I think that is enough said about REAL HARD EFFORT. BUT-----------

Will that get me into heaven------ ABSOLUTELY NOT!:nope: The only reason I do any of that is because I BELIEVE and have FAITH in GOD.

If you look at my above paragraph-- Dont I sound conceited!! ABSOLUTELY!!

God justifies us by His grace through faith in Christ(=salvation) Then, I do all of the above BECAUSE I love my Lord and believe in Him and want to please Him. I do not do any works because I think I have to for salvation. Christ Freed us from that SO we could do works freely out of love to honor HIM. We are being obedient out of love not because we think we have to. AMEN!!!:extrahappy:

Kool, so go to confession regularly, run to it when in mortal sin, and IMO you are all set!

Thanks for all that good works and deeds.

BTW, yes it is best when we do good deeds because of our Love of Christ. But doing them out of fear will get you to heaven too. Out of fear might earn some extra time in purgatory, I don’t know. Above my pay grade.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

But doing them out of fear will get you to heaven too.

Im too stunned by this statement to make a comment

[/QUOTE]

 

[sandusky]

Yes, in Romans chapter eleven Paul is talking TO Christians but not ABOUT Christians. Romans eleven is as much about believers losing (cut off from) their salvation as the Harry Potter books are about Christianity.

Paul’s talking about national Israel being temporarily broken off from the blessings of Abraham, and at this present time (during this Church age) not partaking of “the rich root of the olive tree” (vs. 17) to which, as a result, Gentiles have been grafted into through faith in Christ alone (see Gal. 3:14):Rom 11:11 "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression (unbelief) salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous."The context of Romans eleven is salvation coming to Gentiles through the preaching of the cross (the gospel) during this present Church age, when Israel as a nation (not all individual Jews) has been broken off from the “blessing of Abraham.”

Paul states in verse 20 that they (the nation) “were broken off for their UNBELIEF,” and in like manner, Gentiles, who are now grafted in are to fear because they stand only by their FAITH. And he warns “Gentiledom” that if God did not spare the natural (cultivated) branches because of unbelief, he certainly won’t spare you Gentiles (a wild branch) for your unbelief.

Paul is stating in Romans eleven that there will come a time when Gentiles, as a people, will no longer embrace faith in Christ alone. And God will again, because of Gentile unbelief, turn to national Israel as He once turned to the Gentiles because of their unbelief (see Acts 13:46). Which Paul calls their future “fulfillment” (vs. 12), their “acceptance” and “life from the dead” (cf. Eze. chapters 36-37).

Romans chapter eleven is Paul’s warning to “Gentiledom” in two areas: (1) turning from faith in Christ alone; and 2) becoming arrogant toward the natural branches (national Israel, vs. 25). Because as the nation was cut off from the “blessing of Abraham” (the “rich root of the olive tree” - divine justification based on faith alone) because of unbelief, so will He do to “Gentiledom” for the same reason. But it’s far more dangerous for Gentiles because Israel (nationally) is still connected to God by unconditional covenants and prophetic, earthly promises which He will yet faithfully fulfill in that nation (vss. 28-29).

Thanks brother, I told him this in an abbreviated form, and he’s not hearing it; he will probably come back with something having to do with “you can’t be cut-off, unless you truly belong.”

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Thanks brother, I told him this in an abbreviated form, and he’s not hearing it; he will probably come back with something having to do with “you can’t be cut-off, unless you truly belong.”

Why wouldn’t he come back with the biblical understand??

 

[mikeledes]

Paul states in verse 20 that they (the nation) “were broken off for their UNBELIEF,” and in like manner, Gentiles, who are now grafted in are to fear because they stand only by their FAITH. And he warns “Gentiledom” that if God did not spare the natural (cultivated) branches because of unbelief, he certainly won’t spare you Gentiles (a wild branch) for your unbelief.

Hi Apophasis! An intelligent response as usual, though I disagree with it.

Romans 11:18-22

**18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

Questions:

Does the root support “unbelieving gentiles” (v.18)?

Were branches broken off so that unbelieving branches may be grafted in (v.19)?

Do unbelieving branches stand by their faith (v.20)?

Do unbelieving Gentiles “continue” in God’s kindness depite the fact that they did never were in God’s kindness to begin with?

The warning in verse 22 is directed to Christians (i.e. YOU). Gentiles perhaps, but Christians nonetheless. You admit that most of the passage refers to Gentiles that have been grafted in on their faith alone. Why the sudden break in verse 22? The clear reading of the passage, if one follows the rules of grammar and semantics and common sense, is that genuine Christians can be cut off. Again, please note the consistent use of **YOU **throughout the passage. The **you **of verse 22 refers to the same group of people referred to as you in the previous verses.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

Do you see a difference between “ritual” baptism and the baptism that Jesus gave?

Why does scripture describe baptism as cleansing?

“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” Eph 5:25-27

" let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water".Heb 10:22

Do you think the “washing of water” here is what you call “ritual baptism”?

21 Baptism…now saves you, 1 Peter 3:21

How do you account for the fact that baptized persons understood Jesus differently than the non-baptized? Maybe this is off topic…

Does this passage describe a “ritual baptism”? By “ritual” do you mean that it is empty of divine power?

“and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God,” Col 2:12

Well “guano,” I am not surprised you avoided the total content of my post #270. Is it that you fear pondering on what Scripture reveals as to what it means for the believer to “in Christ,” having been crucified with Him, buried with Him, raised to new (resurrected) life with Him, and now ascended with Him, seated with Him in the heavenly?

No, ritual water baptism does not have the power to do this. It is the Spirit who baptizes the believer into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), and seals him unto the day of redemption (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

“…the washing of water with the word” is not the washing of water AND the word, but “with” the word. The “washing of water” is a reference to “cleansing,” and “with the word” is the means by which one is cleansed, i.e., belief through the preaching of the word of the cross (see 1 Peter 1:18-25, esp. vs. 25).

Sanctifying and cleansing of the Church (made up of all true believers since Pentecost) is the purpose of Christ’s substitutionary, blood sacrifice. He gave Himself, even to death, on the cross that He might sanctify and cleanse His Church/Bride.

“Having cleansed her” is not presented here in Ephesians as a sanctifying “process,” but as the first verb is an aorist in the Greek, Paul is presenting it as a single act and not a continuing experience. His bride was cleansed (“having cleansed her”) by the shedding of His blood. We know from the numerous “shadows” presented in the sacrificial system of Mosaic Law that it is only blood that can cleanse a man of sin. Mere water has no effect.

The whole context is about a bride presenting herself in all her beauty to her bridegroom. She wants to be seen lovely and glorious, not having spot or wrinkle. So the Church is to appear before her heavenly Bridegroom. But the blatant difference here is that she can do NOTHING of herself to make herself beautiful in the eyes of her Lord. Of necessity it is ALL His work (through the cross). He must present it to Himself a glorious Church (vs. 27) - she owes all her glory to HIS WORK. She is made perfect “in Him,” and by Him alone.

 

[Harsalter]

When the Roman soldier pierced Christ’s side on the cross, not only blood spilled out, but water also. We are cleansed by water and blood.

I also think Jesus was very specific and went out of his way to lead by example when he traveled to meet John the Baptist to be baptised in the Jordan, although HE didn’t need it. He did that to show us what we need to do.

Acts 15 is very specific that baptisim is to take the place of circumcision.

I couldn’t sleep at night if I wasn’t baptised.

 

[mikeledes]

Thanks brother, I told him this in an abbreviated form, and he’s not hearing it; he will probably come back with something having to do with “you can’t be cut-off, unless you truly belong.”

I’m hearing and what I’m hearing does not make sense.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Sandunksy, I just want to add to what I said about the parable in Matthew. What did Jesus mean by saying that God “will do this to you also if you do not forgive?” Do what?

Hebrews 6:4-6

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

You cannot be a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” unless you have been genuinely justified. You cannot be renewed again to repentance if there was no repentance in the first place.

Hebrews 10:26-29

**26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified**, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Please explain to me how someone who is not saved can be sanctified by the blood of Christ?

Hebrews 12:25

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

Please note the “we’” in this verse. The inspired author is including himself.

Concerning the “never perish verses.” Life is found in Christ and that life is eternal because it is the life of God. What is eternal is the life, not our partaking of it. Those in Christ partake of this life, just as the branches partake of the life-giving sap of the tree. Those who are in Christ will never perish because they partake of the life that is in Christ. However, this is under the assumption that the person will remain in Christ until the end. Those in Christ will never perish.

God Bless,
Michael

:coffeeread:

 

[mikeledes]

I’m not Bob either, but I noticed Sandunsky that you asked where did Jesus say “do this and you will be saved.” Here are the verses:

Luke 10:25-28

**25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”

27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” **

**28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **

Matthew 19:16-17, 29

**16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” **

**29"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. **

Matthew 7:22

21"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

God bless,
Michael

 

[OneForTruth]

:coffeeread:

:coffeeread:

What do we see elsewhere in scripture…

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, **if you hold fast the word **which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Believing in vain - for those who fell away - they believed in VAIN - empty faith.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

What was different about those that fell in the wilderness that so many refer to to show that you can lose salvation…

Heb 3:17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

We must examine ourselves whether we be in or out of the faith…

2Co 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

Make sure we do not have an unbelieving heart…

Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Those who HAVE BECOME partakers with Christ will persevere…

Heb 3:14 For we ***have become ***partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

It is a condition but ALSO AN EVIDENCE…

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

WE ARE - Not will become…

Not only this…those who are of the elect will be saved…they will come to salvation and remain saved. There is **no other group of people **that will be saved but those who are of the elect. This is explained very clearly in Romans Chapter 9.

We are to making certain of our calling and election…2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble…we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling…we must persevere but we will.

Why all the warnings in scripture??

(cont’d)

 

[OneForTruth]

(cont’d)

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 **And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. **25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world. The warnings in scripture are exactly for that purpose - the keeping of the elect.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In Hebrews 10:26-29…what does sanctified mean in this case…this has a wide meaning which can be noted in 1 Corinthians 7…

1Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is **sanctified **through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

You cannot make the conclusion you are making…

What qualifier do we see in Hebrews 6??

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Falling away is not something to be expected of the elect…

Hebrews 10:39 **But we are not of them **who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

 

[mikeledes]

Regarding the “never perish” verses, this quote from one of the links I provided in an earlier post is an interesting response:

B]Regarding the first objection, “losing salvation” is not the termination of one’s own eternal life, but ceasing to participate in the one and only eternal life of God. It is impossible for God to give man eternal life independent of His own, as that would mean “creating God”, which is as impossible as creating a “square circle.” Thus, “losing salvation” occurs when one voluntarily rejects inclusion in the life of God by seriously violating the righteousness and holiness of His Trinitarian communion.

Regarding the second objection, while the first birth irrevocably makes man God’s image according to human nature, the second birth makes man God’s child through a share in the Divine nature, which is utterly beyond human nature (i.e., supernatural) (cf. 2 Pet. 1:4). Thus man may voluntarily cease to share in God’s nature and still remain man.

Regarding the third objection, while it is God’s irrevocable plan that “whosoever should believe in [the Son] . . . should have everlasting life,” the Scriptures clearly reveals that this belief is “not faith alone,” but “faith working through [supernatural] love” (Jn. 3:16; Jm. 2:24; Gal 5:6). To refuse to love, even while continuing to believe, is to reject participation in the eternal Trinitarian charity which is God’s very nature (CCC no. 221). To reject the divine nature is to abandon the basis for supernatural adoption, apart from which no one is saved (Jn. 1:12)./

The believer participates in the eternal life that is in Christ. Hence, as long as they are in Christ, they will never perish. This presupposes, however, that the person perseveres to the end. Jesus Himself said that only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

(cont’d)

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world. The warnings in scripture are exactly for that purpose - the keeping of the elect.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In Hebrews 10:26-29…what does sanctified mean in this case…this has a wide meaning which can be noted in 1 Corinthians 7…

1Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is **sanctified **through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

You cannot make the conclusion you are making…

What qualifier do we see in Hebrews 6??

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Falling away is not something to be expected of the elect…

Hebrews 10:39 **But we are not of them **who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

So how is an unsaved person a partaker of the Holy Spirit? How are they sanctified by the blood of Christ?

God bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

(cont’d)

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

If God’s decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place…He said - DON"T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!..and those who are truly saved will. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world. The warnings in scripture are exactly for that purpose - the keeping of the elect.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

But, in this passage in Acts 27, we see God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem.

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In Hebrews 10:26-29…what does sanctified mean in this case…this has a wide meaning which can be noted in 1 Corinthians 7…

1Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is **sanctified **through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

You cannot make the conclusion you are making…

What qualifier do we see in Hebrews 6??

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Falling away is not something to be expected of the elect…

Hebrews 10:39 **But we are not of them **who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Those are all excellent examples of scripture that prove that there is only one God given understanding of salvation, and like the bible, like Christ himself, God intrusted The Catholic Church with protecting these teachings for all of time.

By the way, I don’t see any emphasis on certain words in my bible.

Seriously, reread those verses in light of what you have learn from the Catholic posters on this thread. It’s right there in front of you.

 

[mikeledes]

2 Corinthians 6:1

**1And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain-- **

How can you receive the grace of God in vain?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

James 2:14-24 NAS95 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Can this KIND of faith save him???

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Again…we are saved by living faith - faith that works…NOT FAITH AND WORKS

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

We are speaking here only of the exhibition of faith - the characteristics of the faith…and so it continues…

22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

It produces the godly fruit for which it was designed (Eph. 2:10). Just as a fruit tree has not fulfilled its goal until it bears fruit, so also faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. That is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works.

Faith comes first…then comes action as a fruit of the faith…A faith THAT works.

You know,it may be that all we are having is a semantics problem herre. if " faith has not reached its end until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life’ then that is the same thing that Catholics are talking about when we say “we are being saved, and will be saved”. Except, instead of using the word “faith” we say “salvation”, but it is the same concept. It is faith, working through love that does not reach it’s end (salvation) until it demonstrates itself in a righteous life. What a great way to say it!

By the way…I would like to ask one question as well…just how many works do I have to do?? Just an add-on to my previous posting.

It is not, I think, so much the number of works as the quality of the work. For example, a paralyzed person whose opportunities for service may be limited can have a better quality of work than an able bodied person. Fortunately, Jesus already answered your question:

"Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29

" But he who has doubts is condemned…because he does not act from faith; for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. " Rom 14:23

This is the difference between works of the flesh, and the work of God. Works of God proceed from faith, not from self.

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10

They are prepared for us by God, and we walk in them by faith, and they are pleasing to the Father, because they demonstrate that we are obedient.

 

[mikeledes]

My attitude about Calvinist predestination is this. If I am one of the elect and Calvinism is correct, than I will die a Calvinist. If I do not die a Calvinist and I go to Hell, there was nothing I could do to change that fact.

I believe that there is an elect and that the elect will be infallibly saved. They can never fall away. However, the Bible indicates that there are those who genuinely experience justification (i.e. partaking of the Holy Spirit, sanctification by the blood of Christ), but will lose this grace. These were not numbered among the elect and the fact that they fell away and died in that state demonstrates that they were never of the elect. I don’t believe that God does not simply pass over the non-elect. Rather, he gives them a genuine opportunity to experience His saving grace, but allows them to remain in their sin when they chose to turn away from Him. I believe that no one can have absolute assurance that they are of the elect. A person can easily deceive him or herself.

I believe that God sanctifies the elect by the blood of Christ and gives them the gift of faith, the holy Spirit and the graces necessary to conform their lives to the free gift of righteousness by living righteously, thus fulfilling the requirements He Himself has established for their salvation. However, I believe he incorporates the elect’s free will in accomplishing His plan of salvation.

This is what I believe and this is what I believe the Bible teaches.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

Those are all excellent examples of scripture that prove that there is only one God given understanding of salvation, and like the bible, like Christ himself, God intrusted The Catholic Church with protecting these teachings for all of time.

By the way, I don’t see any emphasis on certain words in my bible.

Seriously, reread those verses in light of what you have learn from the Catholic posters on this thread. It’s right there in front of you.

I say the same thing for you, my friend.