"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[guanophore]

Part of the letter deals with apostasy, and those who are Christ’s will never apostatize, and they will never perish.

I think this was the statement to which he was referring. The issue here is that the book of Hebrews is, among other things, addressing persons who have apostasized (fallen away after believing). The dispute started over Heb. 6, with uses the word apostasize. The OSAS say that the people referenced in this passage were never saved. Catholics say that one cannot fall away from something one never had. If we look at chapter 10, we can get more clarity:

Heb 10:26-37

26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, 33 sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. 34 For you had compassion on the prisoners, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

37 "For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry;

The writer is speaking of “we” which implies believers, and speaks about deliberately sinning after being redeemed. One cannot "spurn the son of God’ unless one first comes to know and apprecieate who He is. Clearly the writer is speaking about people who belong to the blood of the covenanent in which they were sanctified (Christ). He speaks about the Lord judging His people. Those are the ones that are called by His name. The writer speaks of suffering that occurred after enlightenment, and encourages them to persist (endure). Why would these words be addressed to non-elect persons?

 

[Pax]

Be specific with your question.

You indicated that those that are in Christ will never apostasize, but Hebrews is clearly talking about saved Hebrew converts that are being warned about apostasy. At least that is the way I see the context of the letter. Your view seems to be 180 degrees opposed to ours on that point.

 

[mikeledes]

Yes, but I think it is grace that is given as the gift, and that grace regenerates a person so that they can apply the faith. Faith is a faculty of man with which He is born. Man is just not able to apply his faith without regenerative grace.

That is why there is no such thing as salvation by works! God provides the grace, man provides the faith, an the two working together produce salvation in a person (that part is not Calvanist, that is Catholic). By grace we are saved through faith (the human element through which God’s grace works).

The application of faith is the part of man,and could be considered a “work” in as much as it requires th action of a person in response to God’s grace:

John 6:28-29
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

:hypno:

Yeah… that’s what I was tryin’ to say. Or at least I think that’s what I was tryin to say. :doh2:

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I still have not gotten a satisfactory answer to this question. What does persevering to the end mean? Persevering in what?

:coffeeread:

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I still have not gotten a satisfactory answer to this question. What does persevering to the end mean? Persevering in what?

:coffeeread:

God Bless,
Michael

Hi,
IMHO to me perservering means holding tight to Christ in a time of need. Not letting my afflictions or trials and tribulations overcome my joy in the Lord. Always keep my eyes on Jesus no matter what difficulties come my way.

My:twocents:

 

[sandusky]

I still have not gotten a satisfactory answer to this question. What does persevering to the end mean? Persevering in what?

:coffeeread:

God Bless,
Michael

What do you think it means, Mike?

 

[mikeledes]

I’m going to revisit Matthew 18:21-35 - I can already feel sandunksy’s stomach starting to turn

**21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33’Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." **

So the unforgiving servanrt goes from a state of debt, to a state of forgiveness, and back to state of debt plus some torture. The man can never repay his debt, hence he will be tortured forever. Sounds like hell to me.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What do you think it means, Mike?

I’m more interested in what it means to you.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I’m going to revisit Matthew 18:21-35 - I can already feel sandunksy’s stomach starting to turn

**21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he did not have the means to repay**, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33’Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

So the unforgiving servanrt goes from a state of debt, to a state of forgiveness, and back to state of debt plus some torture. The man can never repay his debt, hence he will be tortured forever. Sounds like hell to me.

God Bless,
Michael

Hi,
You lost me. I must have missed an earlier post. What was the point you are making?

 

[sandusky]

So the unforgiving servanrt goes from a state of debt, to a state of forgiveness, and back to state of debt plus some torture. The man can never repay his debt, hence he will be tortured forever. Sounds like hell to me.

God Bless,
Michael

Mike, where is forgiveness of sins to be found?

 

[guanophore]

I still have not gotten a satisfactory answer to this question. What does persevering to the end mean? Persevering in what?

:coffeeread:

God Bless,
Michael

The grace in which you were saved! This is the process of working out one’s salvation with fear and trembling.

Job 27:6
6 I hold fast my righteousness, and will not let it go;

Prov 4:4-6
"Let your heart hold fast my words;
keep my commandments, and live;
5 do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth.
Get wisdom; get insight.
6 Do not forsake her, and she will keep you;
love her, and she will guard you.

Isa 56:4-5
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
5 I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
which shall not be cut off.

Hos 12:6
6 “So you, by the help of your God, return,
hold fast to love and justice,
and wait continually for your God.”

Rom 12:9
9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good;

1 Thess 5:21-22
21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil.

Heb 3:6
Christ was faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope.

Heb 4:14
14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Heb 10:23-24
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;

Rev 2:13
you hold fast my name and you did not deny my faith

Rev 2:25-29
only hold fast what you have, until I come. 26 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as
when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father;

28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:11-13
hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him
the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

[mikeledes]

Mike, where is forgiveness of sins to be found?

Forgiveness of sins is found in the blood of Christ. What does perseverance mean to you?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

So the unforgiving servanrt goes from a state of debt, to a state of forgiveness, and back to state of debt plus some torture. The man can never repay his debt, hence he will be tortured forever. Sounds like hell to me.

mideledes:

Forgiveness of sins is found in the blood of Christ.

Thanks, Mike.

What debt must one who is unforgiving repay, and what must one who is unforgiving do to repay that debt?

 

[Pax]

Thanks, Mike.

What debt must one who is unforgiving repay, and what must one who is unforgiving do to repay that debt?

We must always repent and turn back to Jesus regardless of the kind/type of sin. The benefits of the cross secure our redemption. Nevertheless, there are still consequences attached to the sins we have committed. It is these consequences that we must do something to remedy by way of God’s grace. It is God’s grace that leads us to repentance in the first place and it is the fullfillment of God’s grace when we do all that we can to undo the harm that we have caused through sin.

 

[Pax]

I hadn’t received a response to an earlier post, and I hope that it won’t get lost in the chain of subsequent postings.

I’ll repeat my post in the hope that someone will tackle it.

A question for Apophasis, Sandusky, Linkowski, and AllFORHIM:

As non-Catholic Christians do you believe that at the point of becoming initially justified, i.e when a person first believes with saving faith, that the person is forever saved because they are made permanently blameless in the eyes of God?

 

[mikeledes]

Thanks, Mike.

What debt must one who is unforgiving repay, and what must one who is unforgiving do to repay that debt?

You are completely missing my point and the point of the parable. The unforgiving servant was forgiven his debt because His lord had compassion on Him. His debt is forgiven. But what happens next? He refuses to forgive the much smaller debt of his fellow servant. What happens next? The king rescinds the forgiveness he had granted the servant and now the servant has to repay the debt. Since the servant could not repay this debt, he will be tortured forever. Jesus warns that this will happen to the apostles if they do not forgive. What will happen? That the forgiveness they received will be rescinded and hence they will no longer be covered by the blood of Christ. That’s why Jesus taught us the Lord’s Pray “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” Forgive as you have been forgiven. The forgiven unforgiving servant didn’t do that and had to pay the price. He was “cut off”, no longer in the King’s kindness. The eternal debt of sin has an eternal price, hell. The wages of sin is death.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. What does perseverance mean to you?

 

[Truthstalker]

Four graphs later, Calvin continuesoes that sound too Catholic?

(Calvin’s comments on Col 1:24 can be read here).

It is more Catholic than the position being taken by some. The repeated emphasis here is that there is no cooperation, that our suffering and works are useless, that we do nothing towards salvation, etc. Calvin admits Paul suffered for the church. You I think would deny any value in his suffering. For you it is all Christ alone without any human cooperation at all in anything. Here there is human cooperation.

 

[apophasis]

I still have not gotten a satisfactory answer to this question. What does persevering to the end mean? Persevering in what?

Some on this forum have appealed to 1 Tim. 4:16 as a “proof-text” for salvation not “by grace through faith,” but ultimately as a result of perseverance:1 Tim 4:16 “Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.” NASBBut one must take a few things into consideration. In verse 10 Timothy was just exhorted by Paul to “prescribe and teach these things” i.e., those sound doctrinal statements pertaining to Christ and salvation and warnings against falling into ungodliness:1 Tim. 4:6-11 "In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, {constantly} nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and {also} for the {life} to come. It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Prescribe and teach these things.Timothy was to pay close attention to himself (his behavior, conduct) and to persevere (Gr. epimene; continue, remain) in those same sound doctrines concerning Christ and salvation which he was taught by Paul and was now teaching to others.

Now as much as I like the NASB translation, I think it is found wanting in 1 Tim. 4:16. If I am not mistaken (Sandusky?), based on the Greek it should be translated similar to the KJV:"Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue (Gr. “epimene,” remain, persevere) in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."Now the word “save” here is not the noun form (Gr. soteria), but the verb form (Gr. “soseis”). So Paul is not at all saying to Timothy that by continuing in sound doctrine and paying close attention to his own behavior he will ensure “salvation” (noun, “soteria”) for himself and others, but he will “save” (“soseis,” meant in a temporal sense) both himself and those under his care from falling away from godly behavior and falling into ungodly behavior. Which is the CONTEXT in which this verse is stated.

 

[mikeledes]

Some on this forum have appealed to 1 Tim. 4:16 as a “proof-text” for salvation not “by grace through faith,” but ultimately as a result of perseverance:1 Tim 4:16 “Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.” NASBBut one must take a few things into consideration. In verse 10 Timothy was just exhorted by Paul to “prescribe and teach these things” i.e., those sound doctrinal statements pertaining to Christ and salvation and warnings against falling into ungodliness:1 Tim. 4:6-11 "In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, {constantly} nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and {also} for the {life} to come. It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. Prescribe and teach these things.Timothy was to pay close attention to himself (his behavior, conduct) and to persevere (Gr. epimene; continue, remain) in those same sound doctrines concerning Christ and salvation which he was taught by Paul and was now teaching to others.

Now as much as I like the NASB translation, I think it is found wanting in 1 Tim. 4:16. If I am not mistaken (Sandusky?), based on the Greek it should be translated similar to the KJV:"Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue (Gr. “epimene,” remain, persevere) in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."Now the word “save” here is not the noun form (Gr. soteria), but the verb form (Gr. “soseis”). So Paul is not at all saying to Timothy that by continuing in sound doctrine and paying close attention to his own behavior he will ensure “salvation” (noun, “soteria”) for himself and others, but he will “save” (“soseis,” meant in a temporal sense) both himself and those under his care from falling away from godly behavior and falling into ungodly behavior. Which is the CONTEXT in which this verse is stated.

First, let me compliment you on your posts. They are always well-written. Now let me address your argument, specifically on salvation. I am no expert in Greek, so I cannot tell you whether you are right or wrong in that area. I leave that to the Greek experts. But I can point to another verse that uses the word “save” as a verb.

1 Corinthians 7:16 (NASB)

**16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? **

1 Corinthians 7:16 (KJV)

**16For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? **

The word “save” is used here as a verb and refers to only one kind of salvation, salvation from eternal damnation.

Going back to the 1 Timothy, I don’t see how the word save (noun or verb) can mean anything other than salvation from eternal damnation. Can you please point out other Bible passages in which the Greek verb for “save” is used in reference to saving oneself from falling into ungodliness.

So, regarding my original question. You would say that persevering means persevering in godliness, even if the perservering has nothing to do with salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Matthew 25:14-30

14"For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
15"To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
16"Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
17"In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
18"But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19"Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.
20"The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’
21"His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
22"Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’
23"His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’
24"And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
25’And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’
26"But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
27’Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
28’Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
29"For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
30"Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God gives us many gifts that we must utilize for His greater glory. However, failure to utilize these gifts will result in damnation when Jesus comes back to judge us according to our works (v. 19). Please note the context of this parable, the second coming and judgement day.

Similarly, we freely receive the gift of righteousness, but God expects us to live in righteousness (i.e. forgive those who offend you, keep the commandments, do good to others). Failure to do so (i.e. sin) will ultimately result in loss of that gift and enjoyment of eternal life in the world to come. That’s why Jesus said:

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”

27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **

The love of God and neighbor is a fruit of the freely given Holy Spirit. But love is a word of action. No love, no happy after life.

God bless,
Michael