A
ALLFORHIM
Guest
AMEN!!!:extrahappy:
- Status
G
guanophore
Guest
So, when Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery, did He do so in anticipation of the fact that He would give His life? Otherwise, why did He not Himself throw the first stone?
John 8:2-12
2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?” 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus looked up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”
D
dcdurel
Guest
Where do you get "righteousness does not come through the participation of works (even “sacred ones”). St. Paul doesn’t say that anywhere.
We have taught you over and over the teaching the apostles handed down and the only teachings that don’t contradict the bible. These teachings are that we receive the free gift of justifying or sanctifying grace (the same thing) through faith in Jesus at baptism. That is why St. Paul was not saved from his sins till he was baptized. See Acts 22.
But after this initial salvation we certainly do become more righteous through OBEDIENCE to Jesus, but not through the Jewish ceremonial works of the law of Moses, since that is not obedience by Christians.
That is why St. Paul wrote in Romans 6:16
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
Thus MORE righteousness DOES COME THROUGH OBEDIENCE after we have received the initial justifying grace at baptism. That is why James writes
James writes, **“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” **Thus after our initial justification by grace at baptism, one of the conditions for receiving more of the grace that Jesus earned by his death and resurrection is by obedience, or “works” as James calls it.
Thus both St. Paul and St. James, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, teach us that after the initial grace of salvation received during baptism, we can receive more of this grace and be justified, thus made righteous further when we obey Jesus.
“Obedience unto righteousness” as St. Paul writes and
“By works a man is justified” as James writes, and
"If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments, as Jesus teaches.
Is St. Paul wrong and only Luther and Calvin right?
Is St. James wrong and only Luther and Calvin right?
Is Jesus wrong and only Luther and Calvin right?
Is the Church that Jesus COMMANDED us to obey right and only Luther and Calvin right?
I would rather put my faith in Jesus and His Church, in St. Paul and St. James, rather that Luther and Calvin.
Faith in the teachings of Luther, Calvin and Protestantism can’t save you. Only faith in Jesus who said to listen to His Church can save you.
Since you deny that obedience has any place in receiving more grace of salvation, thus justification, thus in being made righteous, you contradict the Holy Word of God and the Holy Gospel that the apostles taught their successors, the bishops of the Catholic Church and handed down to their successors.
The only response Protestants can give is to ignore the verses I posted. Then they will post verses only on faith, then imply Paul means faith alone without obedience even after baptism, then try to deceive others by implying the “works” St. Paul condemns are works of obedience.
Deceit, deceit.
Why do Protestants keep on implying that the “works” St. Paul condemnes are works of obedience, that is, good works, when they know good and well that Jesus never taught that Christians are under the law of Moses and thus must be circumcised and follow Sabbath observance.
Please explain why this deceit is perpetuated.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
The difficulty I’m having in responding to this is not that I disagree with it; a bad habit on this Forum is that after a while if someone says “Good Morning” to you, you look out the window to check the weather in suspicion and demand verses to back it up. My problem rather is that it does not go far enough.
I’ll fault it first in terms of its juridical approach. One criticism the Orthodox make of the Catholic Church is that everything is expressed in legal language. Roman justice influenced the approach to things such as canon law and administrative methodology. There is, as you so well observe, a tendency to err into legalism within Catholicism. What I see as an error of the reformers was that they sometimes saw God as judge but little else. The focus was on our legal standing to the disregard of the healing of the whole person and people. God is not just the Judge; He is Father, too, and desires His children to know Him and walk in love with each other. Healing, maturity, hope, love are all things that flow from Him in grace - things a mere legal pronouncement will not do. Our relationship with God is more than a legal one.
The second thing is that you just put the onus on man: “to those who will”: perhaps an accidental slip from the position that it is all up to God. Now you seem to be saying man’s will is at work to get him saved. Given your previous posts, I think this an error. So, in hope of past, present and future mercy on your part for the things I say, I will not exploit this any further now.
Yes, we may stand pardoned forever before God. His hope, and our hope, is that that will happen: that we are of the elect, that He will do all He can to get us there, but without a violation of His integrity in His justice, or in violating who He made us to be - beings with free will. If you assert, with Calvin, that the elect know they are, but the unelect can think they are elect and give every evidence of God’s grace in life, but not be saved, then man is hosed. Someone may think they are elect but be wrong. The number of the predestined being fixed, we can only pray we are, and ask God for the gift of final perseverance. We can only trust God to save us, not our own feelings, not our theological prowess or anything else. Not our works, as you will be swift to point out.
God is free to forgive all, and heal all, and to forgive perfectly, and heal perfectly. But as not all are healed, not all are forgiven, and not all come to Christ. Since God desires all to be saved, but not all are saved, there must be something else involved. I believe that to be free will.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Jas 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
I didn’t count them, but I think there may be more verses concerning mercy in the Bible than there are verses about judgement. If it weren’t for mercy, God would have just wiped the planet clean and started over.
To look at God through the lens of the atonement solely as a legal action is to distort your understanding of God. God is love, John tells us. What God does is in love for His creatures, in hope they will rise to the purpose He made for them. That understanding is integral to the Catholic understanding of the sacraments, which are not legal requirements so much as opportunities for God to touch us in a real way with His love and His grace. Catholics don’t, or shouldn’t, anyway, use the sacraments either as magic to obtain personal favors or simply as things to be checked off the list to be good Catholics. They should take them to press into God and into His grace in a real way - something that is alien to those Protestants who deny God will work in a real way, will actually show up and do something today.
I want to touch on maturity as well. God frees us from sin so that we can rise to the full measure of who He calls us to be. The gospel is not just pardon from sin. The gospel is a call to know God. Those who know God obey Him. That is not a saving work but a work that arises from salvation, which is a continuation that starts with initial justification and reaches into eternity.
Perhaps you haven’t heard the “I’m saved, I’m being saved, I trust Jesus that I will be saved.” I had my day in court with God as judge and the legal pronouncement of “forgiven”. Now I continue with Him as Father. At the end of time we will sit down and He will look at what I did with my life.
Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
I didn’t count them, but I think there may be more verses concerning mercy in the Bible than there are verses about judgement. If it weren’t for mercy, God would have just wiped the planet clean and started over.
To look at God through the lens of the atonement solely as a legal action is to distort your understanding of God. God is love, John tells us. What God does is in love for His creatures, in hope they will rise to the purpose He made for them. That understanding is integral to the Catholic understanding of the sacraments, which are not legal requirements so much as opportunities for God to touch us in a real way with His love and His grace. Catholics don’t, or shouldn’t, anyway, use the sacraments either as magic to obtain personal favors or simply as things to be checked off the list to be good Catholics. They should take them to press into God and into His grace in a real way - something that is alien to those Protestants who deny God will work in a real way, will actually show up and do something today.
I want to touch on maturity as well. God frees us from sin so that we can rise to the full measure of who He calls us to be. The gospel is not just pardon from sin. The gospel is a call to know God. Those who know God obey Him. That is not a saving work but a work that arises from salvation, which is a continuation that starts with initial justification and reaches into eternity.
Perhaps you haven’t heard the “I’m saved, I’m being saved, I trust Jesus that I will be saved.” I had my day in court with God as judge and the legal pronouncement of “forgiven”. Now I continue with Him as Father. At the end of time we will sit down and He will look at what I did with my life.
N
Nazianzen
Guest
First, if you think that any of us believes that “mere water” can cleanse sin, then you have not been listening.
Second, “having been cleansed” refers to when the Bride is presented to the Bridegroom in splendor, which will occur at the end of time. At that point, the Bride will have been completely cleansed. This passage in no way indicates that cleansing is ONLY a one-time event.
Scripture clearly envisions salvation as an ongoing process:
“But we believe that *we shall be saved *through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” (Acts 15:11)
“We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved.” (Romans 8:22-24) Notice here that Paul speaks of us WAITING for our adoption as sons, and yet he says that we have already been saved.
“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who *are being saved *it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18).
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God.” (Ephesians 2:8)
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dcdurel
Guest
Someone wrote:
We first receive this grace through faith at baptism, through the Holy Spirit. This is the beginning of salvation. Jesus then commands us to keep His commandments, that is, to obey Him. If we refuse to do so, thus commit mortal sin, and don’t repent, then we reject this grace and we will end up in hell. Unrepentant sin cannot exist in heaven.
If we do obey, then we receive more of this grace of salvation. Obeying Jesus can be called good works. Thus we do receive more of the grace of salvation, more of justifying grace, when we obey Jesus. Thus, we can trust that Jesus will reward us for our good works, because He promised it and He cannot lie. Total trust in Jesus when we do good works. Thus, in this sense, we can certainly trust in our good works to merit the grace of salvation, because Jesus promised it.
God saves us by His grace, that Jesus earned by His death and resurrection.
We first receive this grace through faith at baptism, through the Holy Spirit. This is the beginning of salvation. Jesus then commands us to keep His commandments, that is, to obey Him. If we refuse to do so, thus commit mortal sin, and don’t repent, then we reject this grace and we will end up in hell. Unrepentant sin cannot exist in heaven.
If we do obey, then we receive more of this grace of salvation. Obeying Jesus can be called good works. Thus we do receive more of the grace of salvation, more of justifying grace, when we obey Jesus. Thus, we can trust that Jesus will reward us for our good works, because He promised it and He cannot lie. Total trust in Jesus when we do good works. Thus, in this sense, we can certainly trust in our good works to merit the grace of salvation, because Jesus promised it.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
I searched for “reward” in the NT:
Mt 5:12 "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mt 5:46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Mt 6:1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Mt 6:2 "Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mt 6:4 "that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
Mt 6:5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mt 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
Mt 6:16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mt 6:18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
Mt 10:41 "He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
Mt 10:42 “And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”
Mt 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Mr 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
Lu 6:23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
Lu 6:35 “But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
Lu 23:41 “And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”
1Co 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
1Co 9:17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
Col 2:18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
Heb 10:35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
Heb 11:26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
Re 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Re 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
It’s pretty clear.
Mt 5:12 "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Mt 5:46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
Mt 6:1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Mt 6:2 "Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mt 6:4 "that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
Mt 6:5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mt 6:6 "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
Mt 6:16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
Mt 6:18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
Mt 10:41 "He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
Mt 10:42 “And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”
Mt 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Mr 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
Lu 6:23 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets.
Lu 6:35 “But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
Lu 23:41 “And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”
1Co 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
1Co 9:17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
Col 2:18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
Heb 10:35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
Heb 11:26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
Re 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Re 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
It’s pretty clear.
G
guanophore
Guest
Same place he gets “we are saved by faith alone”.
Same place he gets to add the word “THAT” into the book of James when he is talking about faith and works together.
I think you are proceeding from an error here. Apophasis is not here to be taught, he is here to convert us poor lost Catholics, so that we can abandon those useless sacraments and enter community with the elect.
I think Apophasis would classify this as part of the process of sanctification, and separate from justifciation.
You have to understand. According to Apophatic Tradition, there is no such thing as “initial” justification. It is a one shot deal, only happens once, and is good for eternity.
He doesn;t use that part in the formulation of salvation.
I don’t think he wanders into the gospels much, and does not depart very far from the pages of Paul.
He doesn’t have any use for apostolic succession, either. Or the early fathers.
They think that Catholics have fallen away from grace, and gotten trapped back under law because we don’t understand the teachings of Paul.
He understands the Pauline gospel differently than Catholics do, for example:
Gal 5:2-12
" Now I, Paul, say to you … through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love."
He denies that we wait for any righteousness, he believes we have it all now, because it comes through the cross, which is accomplished. He denies that saving faith needs to work through love to prove itself true saving faith.
G
guanophore
Guest
I think you may want to re-read your New Testament on the place of the law in Jesus’ teachings:The problem with your statement is that we can never follow the Law 100% EVER. The Law was given to us through Moses so we know what sin is–not to save us. In order to be saved from the Law we have to be perfect in keeping it. That is just not possible. Hence we need a Savior. Christ came and not only fullfilled the Law but also terminated it.
We are to live by the Spirit rather then by self-effort. That is the New Covenant of Christ.
17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:17-20
Is it your goal to be the least in His kingdom? Or, in your world, has the heaven and earth already passed away?
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Matt 19:16-17
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15
" If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. " John 15:10-11
" Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom 13:8-10
“For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.” 1 Cor 7:19
"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. "
1 John 2:2-6
"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the **rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God **and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. " Rev 12:17
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints,** those who keep the commandments of God **and the faith of Jesus."Rev 14:12
They don’t sound very “terminated” to me!
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Originally Posted by ALLFORHIM forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
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Don’t you think there is a difference between trying to fulfill the law by your own strength, and God filling you with the Holy Spirit and working through you by His grace so that you can live a holy life? In heaven we will follow God’s Law 100%. Or do you believe we will sin in heaven? God calls us to live holy lives now.
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We are to live by the Spirit rather then by self-effort. That is the New Covenant of Christ.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
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Don’t you think there is a difference between trying to fulfill the law by your own strength, and God filling you with the Holy Spirit and working through you by His grace so that you can live a holy life? In heaven we will follow God’s Law 100%. Or do you believe we will sin in heaven? God calls us to live holy lives now.
G
guanophore
Guest
That is not an issue. Even our “sola fide” brethren accept that. The question is, are you SAVED by them?
How do you render that?
Eph 3:6
6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Are the Gentiles just “hanging around”?
“for you are all partakers with me of grace” Phil 1:7
Is this “salvation by association”?
"by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. "2 Peter 1:4-5
People don’t really “acquire” the divine nature? they just hang with it?
The apostle is saying that it "is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy,Heb 6:4-6
If you can’t be restored to repentance, it is because you repented once before! If you have “tasted” of the heavenly gift then you have done more than just “hang around”. It is impossible to commit apostasy (falling away) unless you were hanging on to something in the first place! I know this passage really throws a wrench into the OSAS thinking, but let’s be honest!
That is a REAL stretch. The text gives no indication that the people in Luke 5:7 were believers, or not. Furthremore, I have posted several examples of “partakers” that are clearly believers.
I will wait to see how you are going to explain away all the common associations and events in the citations I placed above.
It is, but you can’t commit apostasy unless you first believed.
I have no doubt that the descriptions you are making are accurate. My disagreement is that Heb. is referring to these people.
Actually, there are a lot of references including within. Upon, among, etc.
This is not consistent with the other teachings of scripture. If they had not faith, they could not partake. The reason Jesus did so little healing in Nazareth is because they did not believe in Him. Countless times He says “you faith has healed you”. These people had faith. Maybe they were like the seeds that fell on rocky ground, but they most definitely sprouted.
And how do you imagine that they can taste, or be enlightened without that? You know that without faith, it is impossible. You know that no one can be enlightened except by God’s grace. No one can taste of heaven apart from His saving grace!
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Look at this:
note verse 9: God’s fellow workers: God isn’t working alone. The Greek is synergos: co-worker, from which we get the word synergy.
note verses 10 and 11: Paul lays the foundation, yet the foundation is Christ. This is no contradiction but Paul working with Christ.
3 John 8:we ought to support such men, that we may be fellow workers in the truth.
God’s not in it alone. He has fellow workers.
note verse 8: reward according to labor
note verse 9: God’s fellow workers: God isn’t working alone. The Greek is synergos: co-worker, from which we get the word synergy.
note verses 10 and 11: Paul lays the foundation, yet the foundation is Christ. This is no contradiction but Paul working with Christ.
3 John 8:we ought to support such men, that we may be fellow workers in the truth.
God’s not in it alone. He has fellow workers.
T
Truthstalker
Guest
Heb 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
According to this verse, not to those who believe but those who obey. This argues against taking a “faith only approach” when developing a systematic theology, which should include all the verses, not just some of them.
According to this verse, not to those who believe but those who obey. This argues against taking a “faith only approach” when developing a systematic theology, which should include all the verses, not just some of them.
D
dcdurel
Guest
Protestants get mixed up with the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ, or the Gospel.We are to live by the Spirit rather then by self-effort. That is the New Covenant of Christ.
The Church teaches that the Law of Moses was given to know what sin is and also that the Law of Moses cannot give the grace to obey it. Thus, it cannot save people from the slavery of sin. Only through Jesus does salvation come.
But, when Jesus came, He made available the grace of salvation, which we receive at baptism. This gives us the right to heaven and this grace, made available through the Eucharist and through the sacraments gives us the ability to obey the new moral law that Jesus gave. And now, when we obey Jesus, (not the Law of Moses, circumcision, etc.) then we receive more of this grace that justifies us and makes us righteous. So we don’t have to keep the Law of Christ, to earn our salvation, Jesus did that. But we do have to keep the Law of Christ to increase in justification and if we don’t keep the law, we lose our salvation. Thus, we don’t have to be perfect in keeping the law, because we are not earning our salvation. But we are meriting the grace of salvation. If we sin mortally, we can repent, through confession and receive back the grace we lost. But, if we give in to sin, and don’t repent, but die unrepentant, then all the faith in the world cannot keep us out of hell.
There can be no sin in heaven. There can be no unrepentant sinners in heaven. All the nonsense about grace covering up sins cannot keep unrepentant sinners out of heaven. Unrepentant sinners are still sinners, no matter how much Luther thought the grace would cover over the sins of an unrepentant sinner.
Another error.
Jesus did not terminate the law of Moses. The Law of Moses will still exist for Jews who still live on earth.
When a Jew becomes a Christians he passes from under the authority of the Law of Moses to under the Law of Christ, or the Law of the Gospel, which is the moral law taught by the Catholic Church.
Just as when a person moves from California to New Jersey. After a year or so, he is no longer under the laws of Califormia. He is now under the authority of the laws of New Jersey.
The laws of California did not change. Only their authority over him changed.
In the exact same way, when a Jew becomes a Christian the Law of Moses does not change and never will change. Jesus said NO ONE can change the law of Moses.
The only thing that changes is the authority of the law of Moses over the new Christian. The law of Moses has no authority over Christians. It is ONLY for the Jews.
Thus, Christians no longer have to be circumcised. No longer have to follow the Jewish ceremonial and ritual laws. Jewish Christians are no longer under the law of Moses. They are now under the law of Christ, who did NOT get rid of the moral teachings but He expanded upon them.
S
sandusky
Guest
Amazing.
A
apophasis
Guest
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
A
apophasis
Guest
Rom 3:21-22 "But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God (how? sacred works? NO!) through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;
Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Now this righteousness principle is documented in Scripture as far back as Abraham:Gen. 15:6 “Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it (his faith) to him as righteousness.”
We don’t imply that Paul “condemns” works - only the idea that works of any kind can justify a man before God. He’s VERY clear on that point. It’s the crux of his teaching based on the cross of Christ. Paul’s teachings (along with the rest of the N.T. Epistles) explain the efficaciousness of the crucifixion. That which could not be explained prior to that historical event.
A
apophasis
Guest
Yes there is something else involved TS. It’s called faith.John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."The question is: In whom or what do you put your faith? In whom or what have you trusted? God knows.
A
apophasis
Guest
From where do you get the idea that Jesus “earned” grace? God saves by grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through (based on) the redemption Christ accomplished through His sacrificial work on the cross:Heb 9:12 "…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Can an infant believe?
However:Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.It is true that a Christian worker’s labors will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ according to how he built upon the foundation (see 1 Cor. 3:10-15, but eternal life is a “free gift.” As is salvation (Eph. 2:8) and* justification* (Rom. 3:24).
What believers do while in this yet unredeemed body will be appraised and rewarded as to its value at a future judgment, but what Christ forever accomplished, once for all, in His sacrificed body on the cross is “gifted,” not rewarded, to all who believe: salvation; justification; eternal life.
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