M
mikeledes
Guest
Nowhere does Saint Paul attach the word “alone” to faith.
God Bless,
Michael
- Status
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
Obedience is not a new thing, Milliardo (Gen 2:15-17).
Finally? Obedience is not a new thing.
You are getting ridiculous now; life continues after justification; people continue to eat, sleep, interact, etc.; however, the change that occurs is that all of their life is now geared to the kingdom, rather than against it—biblical stuff.
G
guanophore
Guest
For Catholics, Apo, salvation is not seen as something that happens at one point in time like it is for OSAS. We see salvation as a process, that begins at one specific point in time, and continues throughout this life, and into the next. In general, I would say that it is considered presumptuous to have an attitude of “eternal security”, being that it is all up to God, and we have no “claim” on His grace.
The actions of a believer are part of his salvation to the extent that they reflect and demonstrate the presence of saving grace within the soul. There will be a resurrection and judgement for all:
We will be judged by our words and deeds:
Matt 12:36-37
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Luke 14:12-14
12 He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. 13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
At that time, it will be evaluated how well we demonstrated deeds worthy of repentance. Some will receive merit (crowns) and others will be purged and will enter into heaven with the smell of smoke on their garments.
Acts 26:20-21
hat they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance. "
S
sandusky
Guest
It’s not apples and oranges, though there is truth in what you say; however, you, the Catholic, can be un-justified by your works, therefore, works are not excluded from your soteriology, but are, rather, the determining factor of it. That is the difference between your soteriology, and a biblical soteriology; in biblical soteriology, men are saved by God alone; in Catholic soteriology, men are initially saved by God, but the determining factor of final salvation is not God, but the works of the individual.
You support my previous statement—the final determiner of a Catholic’s salvation is the works of the Catholic.
Yet again—your works.
It is not a false assumption that the omnipotent creator is able to get the gospel to the ones He intends to save.
Co-creators? Please explain.
G
guanophore
Guest
I am not sure this is true sandusky. Since the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable, once someone has received the regenerative grace in baptism, I think they are sealed. Just like the prodigal son, they can choose to throw away their inheritance, but it does not remove the seal of what Christ did.
I am not so sure I understand what you mean by this. However, I am sure that we disagree about this one point. Works are a determining factor in salvation to the extent that one must do the work of God in order to be saved. Also, anything that does not proceed from faith is sin. Sin separates us from God. If we remain in our sins, then we are not with Christ.
It appears that you misunderstand the teaching of the Catholic Church, sandusky. Having read your other posts, I can only conclude that this “misunderstanding” or false construal as it might be more properly called is a persistant choice on your part. I am not sure why you work so hard to reject the teaching of Christ, but I am not the one you will have to answer to on this.
I do not support it, sandusky, and I reaffirm that you are in error on this point.
Apparently you have not been given the grace to understand the difference between the Works of God, and works of the flesh.
Of course the omnipotent creator is able to save those He intends to save! I never said anything to the contrary. What I said was that, even though no one can snatch them out of HIs hand, they certainly have the free will to JUMP out!
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. Rom 8:16-17
If we take hold of our inheritance, we must suffer for him in order to be glorified. This is the process of participating with Him in the process of salvation.
Jesus became human so that we might become divine:
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. "2 Peter 1:3-4
Notice that Peter speaks in the past tense (has granted, called us) and also of a conditional present “that through these you MAY”
The apostle does not say “will” or that it has already happened (though some parts of it have).
Because of these promises, then we must do our part, which is to add on…
2 Peter 1:4-11
5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "
Doesn’t “make every effort” sound like the person has a role in working on it? How can someone “forget” that he was cleansed (justified) if he never was? What does the apostle imply? That, if you are not zealous to confirm your call and election, you may fall. Does that mean a person will still get into the eternal kingdom, even though as by fire? I am not the one to judge that. I have my hands full adding!
M
mikeledes
Guest
Ignoring verses does not make them go away or explain them. I would also like to add, being that obedience has come up, these verses:
Hebrews 5:9
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation.
Mathew 7:29
**21"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. **
1 Timothy 4:16
16) Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
God Bless,
Michael
G
guanophore
Guest
Is belief in eternal security necessary to be saved, do you think? By your posts you seem to think it is. Nowhere in the bible can I find that it is.
" But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:3-8
The Catholic church teaches that works of the flesh will not save us, but only obedience to Jesus’ command that we be born of water, and the spirit. This, we believe, is the justification that happens at baptism. He also tells us at the great commission that we are to “obey all that I have commanded you”. Obedience, although facilitated by grace, is the work of a person. It is a work that can only successfully be done in faith, and therefore as sacred work, as opposed to a work of the flesh (not based on faith).
"This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. " Titus 3:7
Notice the apostle does not say that the good (sacred) works will “save” a person, only God’s grace can do that, but that they are good and profitable, (and will be judged at the resurrection).
To whom belongs the work of “be careful to maintain”? Why does the apostle write this, if it is not the responsiblity of the believer? Done by grace, through faith, certainly, but still our part in this process.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Matthew 19:21-35
**21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him [c]ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’
27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred [d]denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’
30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33’Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” **
What will the hevenly father do to the apostles? Just as the servant reverted back to a state of debt because of his unwillingness to forgive, the justified will also revert to a state of spiritual debt if they do not forgive.
God Bless,
Michael
**21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him [c]ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’
27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred [d]denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’
30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33’Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” **
What will the hevenly father do to the apostles? Just as the servant reverted back to a state of debt because of his unwillingness to forgive, the justified will also revert to a state of spiritual debt if they do not forgive.
God Bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
mideledes:
This oracle is aimed directly at destroying the belief that people are bound by the guilt or merit of their parents. That is a very important point of the passage. This is ancient blame-shifting; as many today blame their woes on society, those of olden days blamed their woes on their ancestors either way, none wants to take responsibility for his actions.
This belief was expressed in a proverb which is cited in v 2. It could work in two ways, and the prophet expounds an example of each: (a) an evil son will not escape punishment because of the righteousness of his father (5–13), and (b) a righteous son will not be punished for the evil done by his father (14–18).
The principle is declared in v 4: ‘The soul who sins is the one who will die.’ Ezekiel also counters the idea that salvation is solely a matter of storing up merit throughout the lifetime of an individual, and using that store to balance out iniquities. This notion is firmly rejected. If an evil man turns from his ways, he will live. If a righteous man turns to evil, he will be punished (21–28). This set of pronouncements was apparently thought to be unfair (29). But it is not; each is responsible for his own deeds (30-31), and that is still true to this day.
But we are now under a new covenant, and for those who are in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1), and they have passed from death to life, and do not come into judgment, and they will never perish (Jn 5:24; 10:28).
An additional statement of that new covenant articulated in Jer 31 is found in Jer 32:40ff:Jeremiah 32:40
“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; AND I will put the fear of Me in their hearts SO THAT they will not turn away from Me.God has taken care of things.
mikeledes:
Same answer to all of the scriptures that you have posted; namely, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and, they have passed from death to life, and do not come into judgment, and, they will never perish (Jn 5:24; 10:28 et al).
Eze 18:1-32 is about an individual’s accountability.
This oracle is aimed directly at destroying the belief that people are bound by the guilt or merit of their parents. That is a very important point of the passage. This is ancient blame-shifting; as many today blame their woes on society, those of olden days blamed their woes on their ancestors either way, none wants to take responsibility for his actions.
This belief was expressed in a proverb which is cited in v 2. It could work in two ways, and the prophet expounds an example of each: (a) an evil son will not escape punishment because of the righteousness of his father (5–13), and (b) a righteous son will not be punished for the evil done by his father (14–18).
The principle is declared in v 4: ‘The soul who sins is the one who will die.’ Ezekiel also counters the idea that salvation is solely a matter of storing up merit throughout the lifetime of an individual, and using that store to balance out iniquities. This notion is firmly rejected. If an evil man turns from his ways, he will live. If a righteous man turns to evil, he will be punished (21–28). This set of pronouncements was apparently thought to be unfair (29). But it is not; each is responsible for his own deeds (30-31), and that is still true to this day.
But we are now under a new covenant, and for those who are in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1), and they have passed from death to life, and do not come into judgment, and they will never perish (Jn 5:24; 10:28).
An additional statement of that new covenant articulated in Jer 31 is found in Jer 32:40ff:Jeremiah 32:40
“I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; AND I will put the fear of Me in their hearts SO THAT they will not turn away from Me.God has taken care of things.
One can be a branch in Christ based upon a profession of faith; but what needs to be seen is whether or not that one truly believes, and that is finally determined on the basis of whether or not that one abides, or, remains in Christ (cf Lk 8:11-15). Again, for those who are truly in Christ, there is no condemnation, and they will never perish; so any branch, or anything that is cut off from Christ never was truly in Him, and never was truly His in the first place.
Same answer to all of the scriptures that you have posted; namely, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and, they have passed from death to life, and do not come into judgment, and, they will never perish (Jn 5:24; 10:28 et al).
M
mikeledes
Guest
Could the righteous of the Old Testament turn away from God? Were they justified and washed by the blood of Christ? If so, are they not subject to the same rules that those of the New Testament are subject to? If the New Testament saints cannot lose their salvation, then neither can the Old Testaments sains, right?
The Bible says that those who persevere to the end will be saved. Some one who turns away from God and dies in that state has not persevered to the end. So if the “righteous” in Ezekiel dies in their sin, they did not persevere and this contradicts the notion of the perseverance of the saints.
Secondly, you claim that a person can be a “branch in Christ” based on a profession of faith. But if the profession is not genuine, they are not truly justified. Well if they were not truly justified, Sandunsky, they could never be a branch of the Vine in the first place. By definition and logic, a branch is an essential part of a Vine. Otherwise, it would not be a branch. If a branch is taken away, then it must have been connected to the Vine. Otherwise, what would it be taken away from? And if it is connected to the Vine, then the “branch” in question must be already incorporated into Christ. If the branch is incorporated into Christ, then that person has been genuinely justified. If the person was never truly justified to begin with, then they would have never been a branch. By the way, there are Protestants who believe that the branches in question refers to genuine Christians, including Protestants in this forum.
This interpretation is supported by Romans 11:21-22
**21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
Once again we read about a branch potentially being cut of because he or she did not continue in God’s kindness. How does one continue in God’s kindness if one has never experienced God’s saving kindness in the first place?
Finally, that verse that you quote in Jeremiah applies to the elect.
All of the elect have been justified, but not all of the justified are counted among the elect, as the above verses and others clearly show. God has already ordained that the elect will die in a state of grace. Consequently, these will ultimately not fall away. However, God’s justifying grace is not limited to the elect and hence we cannot know with absolute assurance whether we are members of the elect or not.
The verses you presented do not override the verses from Romans, Galatians, and Matthew.
God bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
Right; salvation has always been by grace alone, through faith alone, in God alone; and those who are Christ’s will never perish.
No it doesn’t; it means the “righteous,” as you call them, weren’t saints; those who belong to Christ will never perish.
Actually, the essential part of the vine, is the vine.Luke 8:13
“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.How long is a while, mikeledes? A minute, an hour, a day, many days, a month, many months, a year, many years, a decade, many decades? Here is the decider:Luke 8:15
“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.They do that for more than a while. The same is true of the Romans 11 passage, which you misuse.
Your not knowing whether or not you are among the elect does not negate the fact the elect will persevere to the end, and that they will never perish.
mideledes:
Neither do the verses you have presented from Romans, Galatians, and Matthew override the verses that I have presented, but when Christ says that His will never perish, I believe Him.
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
M
mikeledes
Guest
Sandunksy, if God calls them “righteous”, as He does in Ezekiel, they are righteous, as in justified. Note, he contrasts the rghteous with the wicked in the passages I gave from Ezekiel. You cannot be righteous in God’s eyes if you have not been truly justified.
Secondly, a branch is a part of a vine, just as my hand is part of my body. Note that Jesus clearly states “BRANCH IN ME”? You cannot be in Christ unless you have been justified. Again, compare that to the verse in Romans 11. How can you not continue being in God’s kindness. You cannot be cut off of something of which you were not an integral part. Please show me how I’m misusing this passage.
The elect will certainly never perish. Why? Because they will continue to be in Christ until the end. There will be those, however, who will be genuinely justified but will not remain in Christ and fall away. These will perish. The promise of never perishing is made to those in Christ who remain in Christ to the end. Jesus said that only those who persevere to the end will be saved.
God bless,
Michael
S
sandusky
Guest
Sean Boyle:
Sean Boyle:
Sean Boyle:
No sin of pride can exist if John tells us that the express purpose for writing his gospel and epistles is so that we can know who Christ is, and in believing, have eternal life. That is not pride, but faith.
Please show me, in those verses—Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17; Gal 3:11; Heb 10:38—the qualifications attached to the faith by which the just are said to live?
Sean Boyle:
The fact that scripture uses strong admonitions to encourage believers in their perseverance does not negate the fact that they will never perish.
Sean Boyle:
Again, one’s lack of assurance concerning his perseverance does not negate the fact that he will persevere until the end, anymore than Judas’ betrayal of Christ for thirty pieces of silver did not negate the fact that Christ is the truth.
No sin of pride can exist if John tells us that the express purpose for writing his gospel and epistles is so that we can know who Christ is, and in believing, have eternal life. That is not pride, but faith.
M
mikeledes
Guest
But if the justified will persevere to the end, Sandunsky, why is it that the righteous in Ezekiel are described as turning away from God? Why are there branches cut off in Romans 11.
God Bless,
Michael
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Romans 2:6-7
6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature ]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
These verses speak very clearly to me.
God Bless,
Michael
6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature ]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
These verses speak very clearly to me.
God Bless,
Michael
L
Linkowski
Guest
You need to understand that we also believe that repentance, which is also the gift and working of God in the heart of the elect, leads to the Lordship of Christ. You are turning from one master to another in repentance. In Romans chapter 6, it calls sin our slavemaster that we once were servant to…but we turned to Christ as Lord. This is the first work of faith…turning from sin to Christ as Lord. If this work has not been done in the heart of the individual, the gospel can profit them nothing. Otherwise, you have people taking Christ’s Saviorship as simple fire insurance to keep them out of hell while they live their own life the way they want to…Lordship is discipleship and we turn to Christ as Lord…which implies that we now have a heart that wants to follow in the direction of Christ rather than sin. We see what Christ says in Luke 14…
Luke 14:25-35 KJV 25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 ***If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ***
This has significance when shown alongside the parable of the sower…
Luke 8:11-15 KJV 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Stopping here, this is also shown in Matthew 13…
Matthew 13:21 KJV 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
This person still held their relationships to man as more important than that of the Lord and His word…they loved their relationships to man more than Christ…when someone found out they named the name of Christ, they persecuted them and they fell away…they received the word on rocky soil and were not saved.
(cont’d)
L
Linkowski
Guest
(cont’d)
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
This person still held their relations with their own dreams and desires and unrighteous mammon as a more important relationship than their relationship with the Lord. They had gods that were before the Lord Christ. They became unfruitful…dead faith.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
The person was not willing to make Christ Lord and you cannot have Christ as Savior unless you first repent and turn from your idols, your dreams, your relationships, your things, your sin and rebellion to Christ as Lord. This goes along with two other parables…
Matthew 13:44-46 KJV 44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Repentance is turning from your gods and your sin to Christ as Lord…you are in a sense, selling out. This is the first commandment…
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Once a person has made Christ Lord…once they have a repentant heart…once the soil is right, the seed can penetrate and take root…
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
He says a couple of verses later…
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. Notice - they SEEM to have and they have not…only that last person in the parable.
Discipleship is the result of repentance which precedes salvation…and that person bears fruit with perseverance…they are born again…they are saved…
Romans 10:9 NAS95 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Romans 10:13-17 KJV 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
One must realize the cost of following Christ…one must receive Him as Lord…as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords if the gospel will penetrate into the heart properly.
Repentance as a gift…
Acts 11:18 NAS95 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26 NAS95 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
The faith of the Lordship of Christ or the faith the Saviorship of Christ is all faith. It is His gift to us who were once dead in trespasses and in sins.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
This person still held their relations with their own dreams and desires and unrighteous mammon as a more important relationship than their relationship with the Lord. They had gods that were before the Lord Christ. They became unfruitful…dead faith.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
The person was not willing to make Christ Lord and you cannot have Christ as Savior unless you first repent and turn from your idols, your dreams, your relationships, your things, your sin and rebellion to Christ as Lord. This goes along with two other parables…
Matthew 13:44-46 KJV 44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Repentance is turning from your gods and your sin to Christ as Lord…you are in a sense, selling out. This is the first commandment…
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Once a person has made Christ Lord…once they have a repentant heart…once the soil is right, the seed can penetrate and take root…
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
He says a couple of verses later…
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. Notice - they SEEM to have and they have not…only that last person in the parable.
Discipleship is the result of repentance which precedes salvation…and that person bears fruit with perseverance…they are born again…they are saved…
Romans 10:9 NAS95 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Romans 10:13-17 KJV 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
One must realize the cost of following Christ…one must receive Him as Lord…as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords if the gospel will penetrate into the heart properly.
Repentance as a gift…
Acts 11:18 NAS95 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
2 Timothy 2:25-26 NAS95 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
James 1:17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
The faith of the Lordship of Christ or the faith the Saviorship of Christ is all faith. It is His gift to us who were once dead in trespasses and in sins.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
In Romans chapter 6, it calls sin our slavemaster that we once were servant to…but we turned to Christ as Lord. This is the first work of faith…turning from sin to Christ as Lord. If this work has not been done in the heart of the individual, the gospel can profit them nothing. Otherwise, you have people taking Christ’s Saviorship as simple fire insurance to keep them out of hell while they live their own life the way they want to…Lordship is discipleship and we turn to Christ as Lord…which implies that we now have a heart that wants to follow in the direction of Christ rather than sin. We see what Christ says in Luke 14…You say it yourself… It is a work.
Nowhere in Catholic teaching will one ever find a statement that would give one the impression that salvation is simple fire insurance. Since that is not a Catholic teaching…you are arguing against a straw man.
S
sandusky
Guest
You’re missing the point of the passage; it is a statement of an individual’s culpability for his own sin. This is not a passage dealing with salvation, but with the temporal difficulties Israel is experiencing, at that time, because of their sins. Here are the sins, in context:Ezekiel 18:10-13
10 “Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor’s wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination, he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.Those are specific sins.
If you believe this to be a soteriological statement, which it is not, then it is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that, and you must demonstrate that the “righteous” man spoken of here indeed possesses the righteousness of God, rather than a general righteousness among men; additionally, you must demonstrate that the death spoken of is eternal death, rather than merely physical death. You’ve done neither.
You are not allegory, this passage is, and it is, contextually, and specifically about the 12, with the 1, Judas, being the branch removed (v6). If one does not belong, one is removed. Again, the Lord says that some will believe, and can be said therefore, to be in Him for a while; but that does not mean that one abides there.
Romans 11 is an overall statement concerning God’s plan of salvation, and the Jew and gentile’s position in it; Paul is admonishing the gentiles to stop boasting about their salvation, which he says is to make Israel envious; not something about which those boasting should be boasting.
Paul says that God did not cast away Israel (v1), but only those branches who did not believe (v20)—a statement of unbelieving branches, in the root (cf Jn 15).
This is a passage that says that Israel’s is not completely cut off from salvation; and an admonition to boasting gentiles to knock off the boasting for which there is no justification.
Paul is in the process of laying out an argument which culminates in 3:20; namely, no one is justified by law; in this portion of the argument (ch2 ), is a general statement of God’s dealing with those apart from the Gospel—their works; no one is saved apart from the gospel, as no one can do sufficient works according to the law to be saved; if that is possible, then there is no need for Christ.
mideledes:
Again, let’s get strictly contextual; the beginning context for this passage is v6—financial support for one’s spiritual/theological teachers.
Are you sowing to the spirit by financially supporting, and sharing what you have with your teachers?
Or, are you sowing to the flesh by keeping back substantial financial support from your teachers?
That is the context of the reaping and sowing spoken of in this passage—financial support for one’s spiritual teachers.
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