"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[Sean_Boyle]

All Christians stumble, and they are not abandoned for their human failings. The life of the Christian is about conformity to the image of Christ. The reason for Christian conformity to that image, is because the Christian is not yet conformed; nor will he ever be perfectly conformed to that image as long as he is breathing.

Death makes you perfect?! No purification, it just happens, no silversmith purifying the silver sort of thing. So how will God conform you after natural death? How will you be purified of unforgiveness at the time of natural death. Can you enter heaven with any unforgiven sins on your conscience?

Do you mean to say, because you are indirectly, that God judges us according to our faith and the christian life that we led. WOW!

So we are saved by grace alone, faith alone and by conformity alone and the others. How many solas is that now?

 

[Linkowski]

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

The “owes him” refers to the unforgiving servant’s lord (i.e. God), not his fellow servant. In other words, he has to repay the debt he originally owed his lord.

**25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him **

This earlier verse established the fact that the servant could not repay his debt owed to his lord. This image conveys the fact that we are unable to pay the debt of our sin and that we are completely dependant upon God’s mercy. Verse 34 (i.e. owe him) is a clear reference to this debt that he is unable to pay. Once a person is no longer covered by the blood of Christ, he is now responsible for paying the debt of his sin. The debt of sin is eternal damnation (i.e. wages of sin is death). Hence, the torture will last forever.

God Bless,
Michael

So, if I am unforgiving to one person…I go to hell forever? No turning back?? That is what it seems that you are saying. Now, I cannot say that I do not want to forgive people…BUT…I have to say your interpretation is not proper in light of this and many other scriptures.

God Help Us

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

The “owes him” refers to the unforgiving servant’s lord (i.e. God), not his fellow servant. In other words, he has to repay the debt he originally owed his lord.

I am not unaware of what you believe, Mike.

mikeledes:

This earlier verse established the fact that the servant could not repay his debt owed to his lord.

Correct, and his master forgave him what he owed.

mikeledes:

This image conveys the fact that we are unable to pay the debt of our sin and that we are completely dependant upon God’s mercy. Verse 34 (i.e. owe him) is a clear reference to this debt that he is unable to pay.

Mike, the topic of this passage is forgiveness; where in the passage is sin given any mention whatsoever?

mikeledes:

Once a person is no longer covered by the blood of Christ, he is now responsible for paying the debt of his sin. The debt of sin is eternal damnation (i.e. wages of sin is death).

That’s all true, Mike; but it’s not the topic of the passage; the passage is not about sin, and salvation, but forgiving one’s brother from the heart (v35).

Read the “punchline,” v35; it is not about paying the penalty for your sins apart from Christ, as you say; but it is about forgiving your brother from your heart.

mikeledes:

The debt of sin is eternal damnation (i.e. wages of sin is death). Hence, the torture will last forever.

But Mike, the passage does not say that he will be in hands of the torturers forever, but only until he repays what he owes; IOW, until he sees the error of his unforgiving attitude, and repents, and becomes forgiving; that is the point of the parable, found in the “punchline,”
in v35.

 

[apophasis]

Once a person is no longer covered by the blood of Christ, he is now responsible for paying the debt of his sin.

No longer?

The debt of sin is eternal damnation (i.e. wages of sin is death). Hence, the torture will last forever.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE (how?) in Christ Jesus our Lord."The believer is said to be now “in Christ.” Are you saying throughout the Christian life he is constantly falling in and out of Christ? And he himself “pays” the price to be placed back into Christ? And this is not salvation by works, how?

 

[Truthstalker]

Tell me about your free will, please.

That would be a thread or more in itself. Has been. Probably will be.

If you want to start a new thread, go ahead.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I have a question for everyone
My friend’s(born again christian one BTW) house flooded yesterday. I was able to reach her last night and we were talking about the clean up. She was telling me they have to throw everything out and scrub the basement with Clorox. I said who is going to do this. She said her.

Well, of course, I immediately felt the need to say I will come over and help, BUT I DIDNT The thought of that monumental cleaning task just makes me cringe. I HATE TO CLEAN–that is why I hire someone to clean my house.

I REALLY REALLY DONT WANT TO HELP CLEAN. I am struggling with this. On the one hand it is the right thing to do–there is no other hand except my laziness

So let me ask–Does anyone here think I will go to hell if I willingly do not help my friend because of my own selfishness and do not ask forgiveness from my friend and God? orrr Do you think the Holy Spirit will make me feel miserable and guilty until I do the right thing? If I dont do the right thing do you think God will discipline me?

I just want your opinions based on your set of beliefs.

Ha–and you guys thought I was nice.

 

[sandusky]

ALLFORHIM:

I have a question for everyone
My friend’s(born again christian one BTW) house flooded yesterday. I was able to reach her last night and we were talking about the clean up. She was telling me they have to throw everything out and scrub the basement with Clorox. I said who is going to do this. She said her.

Well, of course, I immediately felt the need to say I will come over and help, BUT I DIDNT The thought of that monumental cleaning task just makes me cringe. I HATE TO CLEAN–that is why I hire someone to clean my house.

I REALLY REALLY DONT WANT TO HELP CLEAN. I am struggling with this. On the one hand it is the right thing to do–there is no other hand except my laziness

The battle between the spirit and the flesh (Gal 5:17).

ALLFORHIM:

So let me ask–Does anyone here think I will go to hell if I willingly do not help my friend because of my own selfishness and do not ask forgiveness from my friend and God?

No, and there is one way in which you won’t have to ask forgiveness.

ALLFORHIM:

orrr Do you think the Holy Spirit will make me feel miserable and guilty until I do the right thing?

Is your conscience feeling miserable, and guilty?

ALLFORHIM:

If I dont do the right thing do you think God will discipline me?

Is this an habitual attitude?

There are times when you should leave one to struggle with his problem.

There are times when there is nothing that you can do to help one with his problem.

There are times when you are physically, or financially unable to help one with his problem.

There are times when you are able to help someone with his problem, but just don’t want to.

Which of those times is the time that you must help?

 

[mikeledes]

I am not unaware of what you believe, Mike.

Correct, and his master forgave him what he owed.

You are correct. At least we agree on that!

Mike, the topic of this passage is forgiveness; where in the passage is sin given any mention whatsoever?

And what is being forgiven? Sin!

That’s all true, Mike; but it’s not the topic of the passage; the passage is not about sin, and salvation, but forgiving one’s brother from the heart (v35).

Read the “punchline,” v35; it is not about paying the penalty for your sins apart from Christ, as you say; but it is about forgiving your brother from your heart.

Whenever there is talk about forgiveness, sin is always involved. God is forgiving our sins against him, we are forgiving sins against us. The Bible is clear about the relationshiop between our forgiving others and God forgiving us:

Matthew 6:14-15

14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 5:7

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

James 2:13

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

But Mike, the passage does not say that he will be in hands of the torturers forever, but only until he repays what he owes; IOW, until he sees the error of his unforgiving attitude, and repents, and becomes forgiving; that is the point of the parable, found in the “punchline,”
in v35.

The point of the parable is that God will not have mercy on the merciless. The servant was originally in a state of debt. What does that symbolize? Our own state of debt to sin prior to receiving forgiveness. So when he ends the parable by saying that the servant has to repay what he owes, that is an indication that he is back in a state of debt. The forgiveness granted has been rescinded because of his lack of mercy. If you don’t forgive, God will not forgive you either. The man cannot repay his debt, just as we cannot repay the debt of sin. The destination of those under the debt of sin is eternal damnation. The “torturers” can only be a reference to eternal damnation, which is torture. I don’t believe it means God will torture us until we learn our lesson

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

No longer?"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE (how?) in Christ Jesus our Lord."The believer is said to be now “in Christ.” Are you saying throughout the Christian life he is constantly falling in and out of Christ? And he himself “pays” the price to be placed back into Christ? And this is not salvation by works, how?

Romans 11:

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

A consistent string of “yous” clearly indicate that verse 22 is directed to and about Gentile Christians, not unbelieving Gentiles. Unbelieving Gentiles were not grafted into the tree. Unbelieving Gentiles can never be cut off of a tree they were never grafted into. Unbeliving Gentiles cannot “continue in God’s kindness”, unless they experienced God’s kindness in the first place. If they were eternally secure, why Paul would tell them to fear (v.20). What is there to fear if you are eternally secure? Fear what? Fear being cut off.

Hebrews 10:26

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving (BA)the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Note that the inspired author includes himself in this verse (i.e. “we”).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

God Bless,
Michael

Thanks, Mike. :tiphat:

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Is this an habitual attitude?

If it is a habitual attitude are you going to suggest that this good lady was never actually saved to begin with? That she is deceiving herself?

I hope that isn’t the case. Is it?

 

[sandusky]

If it is a habitual attitude are you going to suggest that this good lady was never actually saved to begin with? That she is deceiving herself?

I hope that isn’t the case. Is it?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

If it is a habitual attitude are you going to suggest that this good lady was never actually saved to begin with? That she is deceiving herself?

I hope that isn’t the case. Is it?

Phew I hope not My attitude does stink toward cleaning but not helping people. I’ll probably end up helping.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

You would never think that of me Sandusky:thumbsup:

 

[sandusky]

You would never think that of me Sandusky:thumbsup:

Of course not!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

If it is a habitual attitude are you going to suggest that this good lady was never actually saved to begin with? That she is deceiving herself?

I hope that isn’t the case. Is it?

Thanks for calling me a kind lady even though Im really not being so nice right now:blush:

 

[apophasis]

Thanks for calling me a kind lady even though Im really not being so nice right now:blush:

Well, there’s always the option of hiring someone to go help her. Some highschool kid who needs a few bucks.

 

[apophasis]

Romans 11:

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

A consistent string of “yous” clearly indicate that verse 22 is directed to and about Gentile Christians, not unbelieving Gentiles. Unbelieving Gentiles were not grafted into the tree. Unbelieving Gentiles can never be cut off of a tree they were never grafted into. Unbeliving Gentiles cannot “continue in God’s kindness”, unless they experienced God’s kindness in the first place. If they were eternally secure, why Paul would tell them to fear (v.20). What is there to fear if you are eternally secure? Fear what? Fear being cut off.

Hebrews 10:26

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving (BA)the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Note that the inspired author includes himself in this verse (i.e. “we”).

God Bless,
Michael

Romans eleven is not about “believing” Gentiles, but about “Gentiledom” in general.

And Heb. 10:26 is certainly not about believing Jews since they’re described as those who have “trampled under foot the Son of God” and “insulted the Spirit of Grace.”

As a Catholic you confound sanctified and justified. Not to mention works and grace.

As for the “we” he includes himself as a fellow Jew.

 

[Pax]

Romans eleven is not about “believing” Gentiles, but about “Gentiledom” in general.

And Heb. 10:26 is certainly not about believing Jews since they’re described as those who have “trampled under foot the Son of
God” and “insulted the Spirit of Grace.”

As a Catholic you confound sanctified and justified. Not to mention works and grace.

As for the “we” he includes himself as a fellow Jew.

You are completely off base here. The context in both books makes it quite clear that the inspired authors are indeed speaking to believing Christians. The following quotes from Hebrews should demonstrate the point.

Heb 2: 1. “ THEREFORE WE must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and “

The author over and over uses the word “we” and continues to do so in the letter. While there are many things to quote in Hebrews, we can get to the heart of the matter by focusing on some things in Chapter five that clearly establish that the author is addressing believing Christians. Hebrews 5:12-14 says, “For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.”

Now please notice that the author tells those receiving his letter that by now they ought to be teachers, but that they are immature. He does not say that they are non-believers. Instead, the criticism of immaturity is explained by the fact that they are “unskilled in the word of righteousness.” They still need practice to distinguish good from evil, even though they should already be passed that. It is then that chapter six begins and the author warns these same people of apostasy. Right after the warning the author returns to exhorting them saying, “And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”[Hebrews 6:11-12]

The same kind of contextual clarity can be observed in the book of Romans. In Romans 1:8 Paul says, “First I thank you my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world.” In verse 13 Paul refers to those to whom his letter is addressed as “brothers and sisters.” Furthermore Paul goes hog wild using the collective term “we” in chapters 5 and 6 and elsewhere in the book of Romans. The apostle is writing his letter to the church at Rome. He is writing his letter to Christians for their edification. The context is clear.

 

[Pax]

Once again, a question for Apophasis, Sandusky, Linkowski, and AllFORHIM:

As non-Catholic Christians do you believe that at the point of becoming initially justified, i.e when a person first believes with saving faith, that the person is forever saved and is made permanently blameless in the eyes of God?