"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[Pax]

You know as well as I do that your contention concerning positional vs. experiential cannot be proven from scripture. This is a construct created by faith alone adherants that is non-biblical. One is either holy or they are not. One is justified or they are not. One is sanctified or they are not. There is no differentiation positionally vs experientially in scripture. You have been challenged on this in other threads and could not biblically support this construct and you have not done so now.

Moreover, you have failed to address most of what I have said. Additionally, I merely quoted to you what scripture says and the obvious meanings that everyone seems to accept but you. Even Webster’s dictionary clearly shows the meaning of the words blame and blameless. I do not depend on Websters for doctrine, but I do use it to steer people to the correct meanings of words.

You’ve repeated your remark concerning a Greek Lexicon and you are clueless as to whether I use one or not. That is a cheap shot no matter how you spin it. I’ve given you bible translations done by people that are considerably more capable at translating scripture than either you or I. The meanings are clear so forget about playing the Greek Lexicon card as if this helps your position. Condescending remarks do not make an argument. Refute the clear meaning of scripture if you can. So far you have not done so.

 

[sandusky]

You know as well as I do that your contention concerning positional vs. experiential cannot be proven from scripture. This is a construct created by faith alone adherants that is non-biblical. One is either holy or they are not. One is justified or they are not. One is sanctified or they are not. There is no differentiation positionally vs experientially in scripture. You have been challenged on this in other threads and could not biblically support this construct and you have not done so now.

Moreover, you have failed to address most of what I have said. Additionally, I merely quoted to you what scripture says and the obvious meanings that everyone seems to accept but you. Even Webster’s dictionary clearly shows the meaning of the words blame and blameless. I do not depend on Websters for doctrine, but I do use it to steer people to the correct meanings of words.

You’ve repeated your remark concerning a Greek Lexicon and you are clueless as to whether I use one or not. That is a cheap shot no matter how you spin it. I’ve given you bible translations done by people that are considerably more capable at translating scripture than either you or I. The meanings are clear so forget about playing the Greek Lexicon card as if this helps your position. Condescending remarks do not make an argument. Refute the clear meaning of scripture if you can. So far you have not done so.

Thanks for your POV, Pax. :tiphat:

 

[apophasis]

You know as well as I do that your contention concerning positional vs. experiential cannot be proven from scripture.

Oh Pax!!! How can you even make such a statement. Positional truth is a major theme of Pauline theology and is part of what is called his “insight into the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4):Eph 1:17-20 "…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. {I pray that}* the eyes of your heart may be enlightened*, so that you will know (1) what is the hope of His calling, (2) what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (3) and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. **{These are} in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ,**He goes on to describe the POWER He has toward those who (truly) believe in His Son not only to save but to now fully identify them “in Him:” His death, burial and resurrection to new life:Eph. 1:21 - 2:10 “…when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly {places,} far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”

“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.”

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, (1) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (2) and raised us up with Him, (3) and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, (4) so that in the ages to come (ergo, eternal salvation) He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."This is the WHOLE context of a true believer being saved by grace through faith alone. This is the “insight” Paul was given concerning “the mystery of Christ” and the true believer now “in Him.” Paul prays that the eyes of our hearts may be enlightened so that we may know these revealed truths.

But you’ll never know as long as you refuse to accept (believe) the “power of God toward us who believe,” Pax. As long as you refuse to believe ALL that God has accomplished “in Christ.”

This is a construct created by faith alone adherants that is non-biblical.

No Pax! It’s a Pauline construct and TOTALLY Biblical.Col 3:1-4 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

One is either holy or they are not. One is justified or they are not. One is sanctified or they are not.

This is true!!! And it is true because one is either “in Christ,” or he is not. One has truly believed or he has not. One either belongs to Christ (having been bought by His blood), or he belongs to his religious affiliation.

 

[mikeledes]

This is true!!! And it is true because one is either “in Christ,” or he is not. One has truly believed or he has not. One either belongs to Christ (having been bought by His blood), or he belongs to his religious affiliation.

I agree! You are either grafted in the “olive tree” or not. BTW, can a person who is a non-believer be bought by Christ?

God Bless,
Michael
Michael

 

[Truthstalker]

I’m curious as to what you do with this statement:

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith will have works. Therefore, if you don’t have works, you don’t have faith, which means you aren’t saved.

 

[apophasis]

I agree! You are either grafted in the “olive tree” or not. BTW, can a person who is a non-believer be bought by Christ?

God Bless,
Michael
Michael

All “non-believers” are redeemed (purchased) by the blood of Christ when they turn from unbelief to belief in Christ alone. But keep in mind, Mike, they are purchased by his blood, not their works. And if He purchased them, then it is up to Him if He wants to “return” them to their lost condition (think about what that would entail).

But based on Paul’s shared “insight” regarding the “mystery of Christ,” there is no divine “return policy” once one is "in" the resurrected Christ through the POWER God has toward all who believe. It’s an eternal identity - as Christ Himself is eternal. Can Christ return to the grave (dead)? Of course not. Nor can a believer return to his former state of being “dead in trespasses and sins.” But according to God’s immutable Word, he has been “made alive” in the resurrected Christ, and his now relationship TO SIN is the same as Christ’s - dead to it.

Oh, BTW, the “olive tree” in Rom. 11 is not Christ.

 

[Pax]

Oh Pax!!! How can you even make such a statement. Positional truth is a major theme of Pauline theology and is part of what is called his “insight into the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4):Eph 1:17-20 "…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. {I pray that}* the eyes of your heart may be enlightened*, so that you will know (1) what is the hope of His calling, (2) what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (3) and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. **{These are} in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ,**He goes on to describe the POWER He has toward those who (truly) believe in His Son not only to save but to now fully identify them “in Him:” His death, burial and resurrection to new life:Eph. 1:21 - 2:10 “…when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly {places,} far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”

“And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.”

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, (1) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (2) and raised us up with Him, (3) and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, (4) so that in the ages to come (ergo, eternal salvation) He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."This is the WHOLE context of a true believer being saved by grace through faith alone. This is the “insight” Paul was given concerning “the mystery of Christ” and the true believer now “in Him.” Paul prays that the eyes of our hearts may be enlightened so that we may know these revealed truths.

But you’ll never know as long as you refuse to accept (believe) the “power of God toward us who believe,” Pax. As long as you refuse to believe ALL that God has accomplished "in Christ."No Pax! It’s a Pauline construct and TOTALLY Biblical.Col 3:1-4 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.This is true!!! And it is true because one is either “in Christ,” or he is not. One has truly believed or he has not. One either belongs to Christ (having been bought by His blood), or he belongs to his religious affiliation.

Your post has done nothing to establish your contention and scripture makes no distinctions between positional vs. experiential salvation or sanctification. If you wish to prove the point from scripture find the terms you’ve used or truly equivalent terms to establish this contention. I still see this as totally unbiblical.

Please address everthing else I’ve said as well. So far none of it has been addressed.

 

[guanophore]

I agree! You are either grafted in the “olive tree” or not. BTW, can a person who is a non-believer be bought by Christ?

God Bless,
Michael
Michael

Jesus paid the price for all. Some refuse to get in the bag of purchased items!

 

[crocetta]

There is a website about House of Virgin Mary where also Popes have made pilgramige. I highly recommend you.
www.traveltofaith.com

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Jesus paid the price for all. Some refuse to get in the bag of purchased items!

I like that LOL Can I use that? PLEASE

I jumped in the bag about 11 years ago.

 

[guanophore]

I like that LOL Can I use that? PLEASE

I jumped in the bag about 11 years ago.

Sure! You might try some of these too:

We were talking about ‘how are we saved’? I thought this was a great all around answer.

Here’s my answer.

25 Things That Save

1. God. Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33)
2. Jesus. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
3. Holy Spirit. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)
4. Faith. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)
5. The Word. Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21)
6. Preaching. For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Corinthians 1:21)
7. Hearing. So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)
8. Repentance. For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:10)
9. Confession. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:10)
10. Baptism. There is also an antitype which now saves us; baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 3:21)
11. Grace. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
12. Mercy. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)
13. Love. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)
14. Jesus’ Blood. Who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. (Hebrews 7:27)
15. Jesus’ Life. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:10)
16. Jesus’ Death. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5:9)
17. Gospel. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (Romans 1:16)
18. Doing the will of the Lord. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
19. Being Righteous. “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20)
20. Enduring to the end. “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matthew 10:22)
21. Calling on the name of the Lord. And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. (Acts 2:21)
22. Doctrine. Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. (1 Timothy 4:16)
23. Turning a sinner from the error of his way. Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:20)
24. The name of Jesus. “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
25. Childbearing. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1 Timothy 2:15)

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Sure! You might try some of these too:

 

[mikeledes]

All “non-believers” are redeemed (purchased) by the blood of Christ when they turn from unbelief to belief in Christ alone. But keep in mind, Mike, they are purchased by his blood, not their works. And if He purchased them, then it is up to Him if He wants to “return” them to their lost condition (think about what that would entail).

But based on Paul’s shared “insight” regarding the “mystery of Christ,” there is no divine “return policy” once one is "in" the resurrected Christ through the POWER God has toward all who believe. It’s an eternal identity - as Christ Himself is eternal. Can Christ return to the grave (dead)? Of course not. Nor can a believer return to his former state of being “dead in trespasses and sins.” But according to God’s immutable Word, he has been “made alive” in the resurrected Christ, and his now relationship TO SIN is the same as Christ’s - dead to it.

Oh, BTW, the “olive tree” in Rom. 11 is not Christ.

I’m a little confused by your first sentence. So you are saying that only believers are purchased by the blood of Christ?

Christ will not return to the grave. That is true. But I don’t see how you can make an argument for eternal security based on that. Christ is also God and He is sinless.

Regarding Romans 11, the olive tree represents the people of God and the people of God are those who are in Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

We have stated over and over that faith and works are both by way of grace and that all of the glory for these go to God. This relationship of faith and works to grace is the backbone for James statement that we are “saved by faith and works and not by faith alone.”

There are many, many verses that demonstrate the above but I think that the following passage is one of the most important to pray and ponder on for absorbing this important teaching and the source of the works we do in grace:

Galatians 2:19-20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

If I am truly alive in Christ through justification and it is no longer me but Christ who lives in me, then it seems to me that there will not only be good works, but that there “must” be good works.

Comments?

 

[Church_Militant]

I was reading my Bible tonight (Oh NO! A Catholic reading the Word of God!? Alert the media!) and found this passage that I’m pretty sure is directly relevant to this discussion and has not been brought up so far.

Sirach 15:11: Do not say, “Because of the Lord I left the right way”; for he will not do what he hates.
12: Do not say, “It was he who led me astray”; for he had no need of a sinful man.
13: The Lord hates all abominations, and they are not loved by those who fear him.
14: It was he who created man in the beginning, and he left him in the power of his own inclination.
15: If you will, you can keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of your own choice.
16: He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish.
17: Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him.
18: For great is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power and sees everything;
19: his eyes are on those who fear him, and he knows every deed of man.
20: He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin

All that discussion that works don’t matter and such just fell apart as I read that. In fact… it’s also a good case for free will, but I guess Calvin must have missed this part of the Word of God. uch: :bible1:

 

[apophasis]

mikeledes:

I’m a little confused by your first sentence. So you are saying that only believers are purchased by the blood of Christ?

I’m confused by what you’re confused about.

Christ will not return to the grave. That is true. But I don’t see how you can make an argument for eternal security based on that.

Please read my post # 518 on Paul’s positional theology. Every true believer is seen by God as now in Christ having been co-crucified, co-buried and co-resurrected with Him. Ponder on that a while.

Regarding Romans 11, the olive tree represents the people of God and the people of God are those who are in Christ.

You’ll notice that the metaphor Paul presents refers only to the rich root of the olive tree and the branches. In order to accurately understand the metaphor one needs to first identify both entities. This is where you fail in your interpretation. One could say that the branches, both cultivated and wild, are indirectly “the people of God,” but not directly. The grafting in and breaking off of branches has a much wider scope than what you give it.

 

[apophasis]

We have stated over and over that faith and works are both by way of grace and that all of the glory for these go to God. This relationship of faith and works to grace is the backbone for James statement that we are “saved by faith and works and not by faith alone.”

There are many, many verses that demonstrate the above but I think that the following passage is one of the most important to pray and ponder on for absorbing this important teaching and the source of the works we do in grace:

Galatians 2:19-20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

If I am truly alive in Christ through justification and it is no longer me but Christ who lives in me, then it seems to me that there will not only be good works, but that there “must” be good works.

Comments?

No problem! But salvation and justification themselves are through one’s faith alone in the work of Christ alone. Not based at all on works done subsequent to personal belief. The faith by which God justifies a man is a faith that rests entirely in God’s word. A Biblical principle that goes all the way back to Abraham, 430 years before even the Law existed (see Gen. 15:6; cf. Rom. 4:1-4):Rom. 4:13 "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom. 4:16 “For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,”

 

[apophasis]

20: He has not commanded any one to be ungodly, and he has not given any one permission to sin

Dah! I can see why this book was rejected as divinely inspired. It’s language is so inferior.

 

[onenow1]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them Eph 2:10

1. We were saved through the faith of Jesus Christ in his human nature by his passion, not our faith.] When we do gain faith in Christ Jesus, we better, by grace, and the ability that he gave to us, obey his commands.

God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not that we will walk in them, the creator does not force us to do anything,we have choice, [Free will].

That’s why Paul says in Phil 2:13,It is God for his own generous purpose, gives you the intention and powers to act.

1Peter. 1: 17 God judges impartially according to ones works.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[guanophore]

I’m a little confused by your first sentence. So you are saying that only believers are purchased by the blood of Christ?

apophasis is a Calvanist. He believes we are all predestined to either salvation or damnation. Therefore, those that choose Christ are only the elect, those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world. They don’t really have a free will, in the way that Catholics think. They cannot “lose” their salvation. God is fully able, ready, and willing to preserve them to the end so that they are never lost. Therefore, since God has promised to preserve them to eternal life they never choose not to be saved.

Christ will not return to the grave. That is true. But I don’t see how you can make an argument for eternal security based on that. Christ is also God and He is sinless.

Regarding Romans 11, the olive tree represents the people of God and the people of God are those who are in Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

Apophasis does not believe that people are “in Christ” either, the way Catholics do. He does not believe in the communion of saints.