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mikeledes
Guest
:coffeeread:
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marycw
Guest
Very simply, even non-believers love those who love them, we are called to love our enemies. That requires faith. Faith is an action, love is a verb. Therefore you cannot have faith without producing works as a consequence of that faith. To recap: To receive salvation from God you must have faith, if you really have faith, you WILL have works, (“by their fruit you will know them”) “I am the Vine, you are the branches”
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apophasis
Guest
Been busy trying to scratch out a living.What happened!!
Our separated brethern sure dropped this discussion fast.
I was hoping to hear answers to the questions posed to them on this thread. It’s taken a long time to get to this point, why not continue?
I wouldn’t say the discussion was dropped “fast,” this is, you know, “part 2.” Prior to this there were 1000 posts. :juggle:
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apophasis
Guest
This is true, Pax, but where you err is in assigning the works aspects of this truth as a condition of salvation. Man’s salvation is wrought in the work of Christ alone, hence, by faith alone.
True. But the salvation wrought by God is not only that Christ is now in the believer but that the believer is also now “in Christ” resurrected. Spiritually he has been translated from Adam to Adam. A divinely revealed truth in Romans chapters five and six.
Your second error is trying to interpret Romans chapter eight out of context. The eighth chapter of Romans comes AFTER the work of Christ, i.e., AFTER His atoning blood has forever put the believer’s sins away and God has justified him in Christ alone (Rom. 3-4); AFTER Paul has revealed that the believer has died with Christ TO sin, once for all, and the legal responsibilty he had “in Adam” (Rom. 5-6); AFTER the words “For sins shall not be master over you, for you are not under law (the principle of), but under grace (the principle of)” (Rom. 6:14); and AFTER the personal, hopeless struggle through which the Apostle has shown “the flesh” to be incurably bad and that his deliverance and freedom “from this body of death” and his own wrechedness “in the flesh” is through the Person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ alone (Rom. 7:24-25).
That’s right. But Paul in Romans eight is not adding personal works to the “formula” of salvation. You cannot ignore ALL he taught regarding salvation and justification in the first seven chapters. Once Paul laid out the full doctrine of salvation/justification through faith in Christ alone, he then goes on to reveal the role of the indwelling Spirit in the life of the, once for all, redeemed. But he begins withRom. 8:1 "There is THEREFORE (referring to what he just taught in the previous chapters regarding the believer’s justification through faith in Christ alone) no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."Every true believer, redeemed, cleansed, justified and now positionally in Christ, is also indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And it is in Him that they are now to walk for a victorious life this side of glory. This is what Romans chapter eight is all about. It’s about working for salvation. Positionally the believer is no longer “in the flesh” but in the Spirit:Rom. 8:9 “However you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit…” (cf. Rom. 7:5)And because of this Paul is saying that it is by the Spirit the believer is now obligated to walk, by faith (cf. Gal. 2:20; 5:16-17).
Romans eight is about how the redeemed, “made alive to God” in Christ, can live a victorious life while still in this yet unredeemed body (which is dead to the things of God because of sin - sins which God already judged in the crucified body of Christ, Rom. 8:3). Every born again believer (through faith, not baptism) is under obligation not to live according to the flesh, but “the Spirit” who now indwells him (Rom. 8:12):Rom. 8:13-16 "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of salvery leading to fear again (even loss of salvation), but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out “Abba Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we ARE children of God… (Rom. 17:b cf. 1 Jn. 3:1-2)
Paul is not at all teaching works as a condition for salvation in Romans chapter eight, Pax. But how the saved can live victorious lives in this yet unredeemed body by walking in the power of the indwelling Spirit and not the flesh.
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apophasis
Guest
Read the chapter very carefully, Mike. Don’t filter it through your own preconceived ideas. The chapter reveals the sovereignty of God in dealing with national Israel which, during this Church age, has been temporarily “broken off” from the “blessing of Abraham” (the holy root) until the “fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (i.e., to the Church, see Rom. 11:25). Through their (national Israel’s) rejection because of unbelief (vs. 20) God turned to the Gentiles that they (as a people) may experience the covenant “blessing of Abraham” through FAITH in Christ (Israel’s Messiah, see Gal. 2:14).
But the metaphor is only speaking in generalities. Not ALL Jews were broken off, not ALL Gentiles are grafted in. And Paul reveals that Israel, God’s covenant nation, will again be grafted back into the rich root (see vss. 12, 15, 26-29).
What Paul is revealing here is that God, because of Israel’s national transgression (unbelief), has graciously turned to the Gentiles with the “gospel” of its Messiah, offering salvation to all who will believe in Him.
But the day will come when He (God) will turn again to national Israel with favor and fulfill ALL the unconditional covenant and prophetic promises He made to that nation (vs. 29). And this because Gentiles (as a people) will turn away from faith in the gospel message of Israel’s Messiah. In fact, we see this happening on a large scale today. Countries that once considered themselves “Christian” no longer want anything to do with the name of Christ.
And amazingly, against all odds, Israel is back as a nation in its ancient homeland. All signs that we are living at the end of this Church age and God is about to again focus on national Israel, break off the Gentiles from their favored position, and graft national Israel back into the root in order to faithfully fulfill His covenant promises to that nation (vss. 26-27). Elsewhere we learn that prior to all this the Church, which Christ has been building these past 2000 years, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles, will be taken up to be with her Lord and will return with Him at His 2nd Advent.
Paul’s warning in Rom. 11 is to Gentiles in general. The gospel of salvation through faith in Christ alone came to them BECAUSE of national Israel’s transgression of unbelief in her Messiah. The Gentiles now stand only by their faith (not works). Turn away from the gospel message of salvation through faith in Christ alone, either by outright rejection or corrupting it (both equal unbelief), and the Gentiles (as a people), like national Israel, will be broken off from the privilege of being in God’s favor.
And as I said in my previous post, this would be far worse for the Gentile because national Israel still continues to be connected to God through unconditional and prophetic promises which must yet be fulfilled - hence its assurance of being grafted back in.
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apophasis
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I don’t think Calvinists are “bad.” We may have some doctrinal differences, but we agree that salvation is by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone. And I am indebted to the scholarly works presented on the Bible by several who hold this view. One must not dump out the baby with the bath water.:tsktsk:
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Pax
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- Paul never says “faith alone.”
- I did not take Romans chapter 8 out of context. Paul simply says what he said and I take him at his word. Moreover, it is just as easy for me to point out that chapter 8 further explains and qualifies everything preceding it, as it is for you to make your claims against my position.
- I have not ignored any of what Paul taught in the first seven chapters of Romans. Moreover, Paul starts telling us in Chapter six that we can no longer be involved in sin.
- Neither we nor Paul have claimed anything as “personal” works. All is by grace and the glory and credit goes to God.
- You are beginning to confuse me in terms of what you actually believe or you are now using terminology that does not fit with what you have presented in the past. You are now saying "This is what Romans chapter eight is all about. It’s about*** working ***for salvation." You even went on to say that the believer *“is under **obligation ***not to live according to the flesh.” A properly catechised Catholic won’t even say that we are “working for salvation.” This kind of terminology is not in keeping with your own doctrines. I realize that you tried to qualify this in your last paragraph but I still find it problematic. I think it shows that your position of faith alone is in conflict with many other parts of Romans and that it is difficult/impossible for you to reconcile them.
- You also said, “For you have not received a spirit of salvery leading to fear again (even loss of salvation),” Once again, you have said something which seems at odds with things that you have stated in the past. This agrees with our position and not yours. Clearly, we can have a loss of faith, we can fall back into fear, and we can fall from grace.
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Pax
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You are arguing that Paul is not talking about individuals but apparently only groups or nations. This is seriously flawed. When Paul writes a letter to a local church he doesn’t send a personalized custom copy to each member. Instead, he writes a general letter that would be similar to a sermon should he be preaching. The message is not just to a group as if a group had no members. The message is to individuals within the group or it has no meaning.
When Paul condemns fornication, idolatry, murder, etc and warns the believers that those that do these things will not enter heaven he is addressing a group of individuals. Individuals can go to hell. They can do so one at a time or they can do it in a group setting should they all die at once. Why warn a group if it meant nothing to the individuals?
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apophasis
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Yes, but you need to take him at his word in context.
He’s not qualifying anything he previously wrote. He’s simply explaining how the redeemed, now in Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, are to walk in this life.
And the reason is because we, with Christ, have died TO sin. The true believer has been co-crucified with Him, co-buried and co-resurrected to new life in Him. So as Christ died “to sin, once for all” so the believer, now identified with Him, should consider himself to be “dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus” (see Rom. 6:10-11) As Paul logically points out, “How shall we who have died TO sin (with Christ) still live in it?” This argument is based on the believer’s new identity in the risen Christ.
But in chapter eight it’s about the believer’s daily walk in the Spirit who now indwells him. The power to live a victorious life while yet in these unredeemed bodies.
But Paul never states that salvation is based on anything other than the atoning work of Christ on the cross. It is YOU who claim salvation is ALSO based on works God produces in the “Christian.” Paul never goes there.
That was a typo. Should have been obvious to you based on the context. I left out the little word “not.” It’s NOT about working for salvation.
A proper catechised Catholic will say works other than Christ’s atoning work are needed FOR salvation. Which is Catholic soteriology, not Pauline, not Biblical.
I don’t know how not losing salvation is in conflict with my position on salvation. A true believer may at times stumble in his faith-walk, he may fear because of fleshly thoughts, and he may fall into the grips of law (works) oriented teachers, but none of these will cause the loss of his salvation. None of these will cause him to be no longer “in Christ.” His position in Christ was the work of God at the time of personal belief in Christ.
Yes, those who are seeking to be justified by law (works) have fallen from grace. They cannot enter salvation through law keeping (works) - its all of grace through faith. These are seeking to be justified by law, they never were justified by faith. They have “fallen from grace,” they’ve turned their backs to it. Same could be said about those who are presently seeking to be justified by works other than Christ’s atoning work on the cross.
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apophasis
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Not it’s not. He’s informing the primarily Gentile church at Rome about the present situation. National Israel being temporarily set aside while God turns to the Gentiles with salvation through faith in Israel’s Messiah. But he’s warning the Gentiles not be become arrogant toward the natural branches which had been cut off. Not to become conceited. If God didn’t spare them because of unbelief, neither will He spare you Gentiles (Gentiledom). If you don’t continue in His kindness (His grace toward you), you too will be cut off from the “blessing of Abraham.”
It’s all instructional and informative, Pax. It’s not about individuals losing their salvation.
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Pax
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You are simply in denial…Paul makes it clear that people can lose their salvation. When I return this evening I will list all of the NT scriptures in which Paul says that certain things that we do and don’t do will separate us from Christ and cause the loss of salvation.
As far as your typo is concerned…thanks for clearing that up. You write well enough for me to assume that you generally mean what you say.
As far as your typo is concerned…thanks for clearing that up. You write well enough for me to assume that you generally mean what you say.
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guanophore
Guest
The question is, marycw, whether loving your enemies and producing works is salvific. If one loves their enemies, and does good works, will that save him?Very simply, even non-believers love those who love them, we are called to love our enemies. That requires faith. Faith is an action, love is a verb. Therefore you cannot have faith without producing works as a consequence of that faith. To recap: To receive salvation from God you must have faith, if you really have faith, you WILL have works, (“by their fruit you will know them”) “I am the Vine, you are the branches”
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guanophore
Guest
Well, I am glad we finally got all that settled. Shall we close the thread now?
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apophasis
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Well I haven’t seen it yet!
I’m sure you will. But you’ve demonstrated how you often fail to understand Scriptural verses in their proper context.
But the context should have made it quite obvious. See what I mean about context? Context means EVERYTHING, Pax. It can even prevent one from assuming the wrong conclusion. At least question it.
I see “granophore” lacks the same discernment.
If you give me a whole list of verses YOU think Paul is teaching a true believer, now co-crucified, co-buried and co-resurrected with Christ; translated from Adam to Adam; justified giftwise by faith through Christ’s redemptive work (Rom. 3:24); now reconciled to God through the death of His Son, can lose all this that God Himself accomplished for him through Christ, then please provide me with the proper context as well.
Show me that Paul clearly teaches that all of the above are divinely reversed and the “once believer” is again unregenerated; again dead, spiritually, to the things of God; again dead in trespasses and sins; again in Adam, no longer in Christ; again no longer reconciled to God. Show me that Paul teaches that he is literally back to the original unbelieving estate he was in prior to believing.
In fact such a one would remember nothing of what it was like to have once believed. Such a one would not be in need of a sacrament, Pax, but the gospel of Christ to be preached to him all over again. And who’s to say he would believe again? And in the case of those who teach that salvation is entered into through baptism, he would need to be baptized all over again.
If a man can truly lose his salvation, then salvation is a risky business, indeed. And God, through the cross of Christ, has no more power than the weakest believer. Nor do the so-called “saving works of grace” you say God Himself performs through him. And if that’s the case, then it is God who has failed, not the man.
Paise the Lord Paul teaches no such “gospel.” But instead:Rom. 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek”
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onenow1
Guest
Matt. 7: 21, not everyone saying ‘Lord, Lord’ will inherit.
This verse against people, who perform works of Jesus, but live evil lives.
Romans 11:21-23, For if God did not spare the natural branches,[perhaps] he will not spare you either. see then the kindnesss and severity of God;severity toward those who fell,but kindness to you provided you remain in his kindness;otherwise you to will be cut off;and they also if they do not remain in there unbelief, will be grafted in for God is able to graft them in again.
Peace, OneNow1
This verse against people, who perform works of Jesus, but live evil lives.
Romans 11:21-23, For if God did not spare the natural branches,[perhaps] he will not spare you either. see then the kindnesss and severity of God;severity toward those who fell,but kindness to you provided you remain in his kindness;otherwise you to will be cut off;and they also if they do not remain in there unbelief, will be grafted in for God is able to graft them in again.
Peace, OneNow1
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onenow1
Guest
HI,
The old Baltimore catachism puts it this way. To know God, to love God and to serve God.
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apophasis
Guest
And if he lost his salvation then he would no longer “know God,” “love” God, and certainly not “serve” God. He would again be as a "natural man:"1 Cor 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."He would be in need of hearing the gospel message all over again and hopefully believe.
Is this salvation cycle really how the N.T. Scriptures describe salvation. I don’t think so!
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byrdele
Guest
Too many parables that Jesus told were of the integral part of works with faith - to the point of salvation. The two cannot be separated. As James said (and I hear that Martin Luther wanted to take James out of the Bible) - faith without works is dead. It does not exist. Neither will works save us. The two are combined like the threads in a rope. Try to unravel the rope and there is no rope at all.
I do not believe that one can simply trot out of saving grace very easily. In Scripture it is stated that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Likewise, when the goats are separated from the sheep, Christ does not know the goats because they talked the talk but didn’t walk it. He even curses a fig tree for failing to produce fruit. He says that we are known by our fruit.
Does that mean that committing a sin immediately throws us out into the place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth?” No. Scripture states that God does not crush a bruised reed or snuff out a smoldering wick. He is gentle with us and brings us back. Our relationship is obviously not right with Him at this point, but remember the plants which sprouted up and then were choked out by cares of the world, or when persecution started they withered because they had no root. To truly, and I am not a theologian, so bear with me; but to truly lose our salvation it has to be simply walking away from God. But if one is truly a Christian, can he walk away from the grace of God? That is where we get into the mysteries of God and His word.
The Bible has to be read in full context to understand its meaning, and even then we cannot truly understand it in full but have to take a lot on faith. The Christian faith is one of mysteries and we have to accept that we cannot truly understand God and His ways, which is a good thing. It would be awfully scary if God were on my level and I understood Him completely. If I was saved in the beginning, can I truly walk away from grace? I simply do not know. I know the Church teaches that you can and I believe that because theology is promulgated by people far more educated than I. But because God does not crush a bruised reed, which seems to stand for a child of God gone astray, I believe that it is awfully hard to walk out of saving grace. However, the Bible does indicate that it can be done. (Or is it that the person was never saved in the first place?.. the debate goes on…)
As far as other Christians going to heaven, Jesus said “I am the Way, Truth and Life. No one goes to the Father but by ME.”. I think most Christians can agree on that and the Catholic Church openly and assertively promotes Christian ecumenicalism. A non-Christian, by Christ’s definition, will not make it. However, since we don’t know what is in a man’s heart and we don’t know what goes on between him and God while he is dying, we cannot for certain say that the person did not make it to heaven. That is between him and God.
When we talk about hoping on our salvation, it is not the way we use the word “hope” today. “Hope” meant “Faith in things unseen.” If we are truly saved, we will love God. If we love God, we will want to obey Him - at first maybe out of selfishness but if we truly love Him it will become because we wish to please Him. Every tree produces bad fruit now and again but the overall effect should be good fruit if a person is truly walking in grace with the Lord.
I wish that Christians of all denominations would simply come together on what we DO have in common, the belief that Christ is our Saviour and take all this energy for debating into the world and preach the Gospel as we were told to do - working together despite our differences instead of against each other. I will never again believe in “once saved always saved” (I did for a number of years) or that faith can be separated from works, but know Christians who do believe in these ideas, but the important thing is that they are Christians. Ever since the Reformation we have been debating this question and it’s great to debate, but sometimes it grows ugly, as I saw in my youth in the American Bible belt. It goes beyond debate into division and not truly researching what the other person believes, so that I was told I was “working my way to heaven”, “worshipping Mary” (a bit off the subject, but hence my point). Of course, we believed that Baptists believed that they could claim Christ as Saviour and then do anything they wanted… which is also an ignorant bias, because many “once saved always saved” believers, Baptist included, are Christians who love God and obey Him. Debating ideas is fun and we learn from the experience, which is what is being done here, but when it divides us it hurts attempts to work together and get the Gospel out.
I do not believe that one can simply trot out of saving grace very easily. In Scripture it is stated that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Likewise, when the goats are separated from the sheep, Christ does not know the goats because they talked the talk but didn’t walk it. He even curses a fig tree for failing to produce fruit. He says that we are known by our fruit.
Does that mean that committing a sin immediately throws us out into the place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth?” No. Scripture states that God does not crush a bruised reed or snuff out a smoldering wick. He is gentle with us and brings us back. Our relationship is obviously not right with Him at this point, but remember the plants which sprouted up and then were choked out by cares of the world, or when persecution started they withered because they had no root. To truly, and I am not a theologian, so bear with me; but to truly lose our salvation it has to be simply walking away from God. But if one is truly a Christian, can he walk away from the grace of God? That is where we get into the mysteries of God and His word.
The Bible has to be read in full context to understand its meaning, and even then we cannot truly understand it in full but have to take a lot on faith. The Christian faith is one of mysteries and we have to accept that we cannot truly understand God and His ways, which is a good thing. It would be awfully scary if God were on my level and I understood Him completely.
If I was saved in the beginning, can I truly walk away from grace? I simply do not know. I know the Church teaches that you can and I believe that because theology is promulgated by people far more educated than I. But because God does not crush a bruised reed, which seems to stand for a child of God gone astray, I believe that it is awfully hard to walk out of saving grace. However, the Bible does indicate that it can be done. (Or is it that the person was never saved in the first place?.. the debate goes on…)As far as other Christians going to heaven, Jesus said “I am the Way, Truth and Life. No one goes to the Father but by ME.”. I think most Christians can agree on that and the Catholic Church openly and assertively promotes Christian ecumenicalism. A non-Christian, by Christ’s definition, will not make it. However, since we don’t know what is in a man’s heart and we don’t know what goes on between him and God while he is dying, we cannot for certain say that the person did not make it to heaven. That is between him and God.
When we talk about hoping on our salvation, it is not the way we use the word “hope” today. “Hope” meant “Faith in things unseen.” If we are truly saved, we will love God. If we love God, we will want to obey Him - at first maybe out of selfishness but if we truly love Him it will become because we wish to please Him. Every tree produces bad fruit now and again but the overall effect should be good fruit if a person is truly walking in grace with the Lord.
I wish that Christians of all denominations would simply come together on what we DO have in common, the belief that Christ is our Saviour and take all this energy for debating into the world and preach the Gospel as we were told to do - working together despite our differences instead of against each other. I will never again believe in “once saved always saved” (I did for a number of years) or that faith can be separated from works, but know Christians who do believe in these ideas, but the important thing is that they are Christians. Ever since the Reformation we have been debating this question and it’s great to debate, but sometimes it grows ugly, as I saw in my youth in the American Bible belt. It goes beyond debate into division and not truly researching what the other person believes, so that I was told I was “working my way to heaven”, “worshipping Mary” (a bit off the subject, but hence my point). Of course, we believed that Baptists believed that they could claim Christ as Saviour and then do anything they wanted… which is also an ignorant bias, because many “once saved always saved” believers, Baptist included, are Christians who love God and obey Him. Debating ideas is fun and we learn from the experience, which is what is being done here, but when it divides us it hurts attempts to work together and get the Gospel out.
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guanophore
Guest
Actually, scripture teaches that his last state is WORSE than his first! Since things have permanently changed, one can never go back to the way they were.
No, just go to confession.
No one is saying that God is unable to save, or that his arm is too short. I would not say that salvation is risky. It is really quite simple, as you have pointed out repeatedly. It is not even that “risky” to hold fast, but it is work. One must grasp hold of that which has grasped hold of him. Hold tightly. Confirm. Cling. If one’s hands were to slip, God can hold one until one reclaims his grip, but if one refuses the hand of God…He will not violate the free will of man.
Indeed it is the power of salvation, but not all are plugged into the wall, and some people pull out their plugs!
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apophasis
Guest
But if one, as you say, pulls the plug" on himself, then he is no longer a believer, but has reverted back to an unbelieving state. He is again “dead in trespasses and sins.” He is no longer “in Christ” but again a sinner in Adam and in a totally unjustified state.
Now according to RC’ism, how does an adult unbeliever enter into “initial” justification?
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