"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[apophasis]

Too many parables that Jesus told were of the integral part of works with faith - to the point of salvation. The two cannot be separated.

The doctrines of salvation are not found in, or built upon, parables - not even Christ’s. They’re found in the post-cross teachings of the Epistles. The parables Christ presented to the Jews, prior to His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection, did not necessarily take His atoning work on the cross into consideration. His parables taught, in a limited way, a specific lesson by example, but they are not salvation doctrines based on and rooted in His atoning work on the cross. For these you must go to the Epistles.

 

[onenow1]

Let’s take time ot to pray.

Dear,Jesus our divne savior, you lived a human life in order to suffer our daily trials. By your patience, kindness and self control, You showed us the kind of love that You desire of us. Help us to recognise these occasions for virtue in our own lives, and grant us the strength to make good use of them. Let us no longer be content to avoiding sin. Make us eager to advance in the virtues which we need the most. In this way we shall be putting up the best kind of battle against our faults. In this way we hope we shall be giving you a higher proof of our love for you. Amen

The Lord be with us all.
Peace, OneNow1

 

[Sean_Boyle]

But if one, as you say, pulls the plug" on himself, then he is no longer a believer, but has reverted back to an unbelieving state. He is again “dead in trespasses and sins.” He is no longer “in Christ” but again a sinner in Adam and in a totally unjustified state.

Now according to RC’ism, how does an adult unbeliever enter into “initial” justification?

The phase “then he is no longer a believer” are your words. The o.p. didn’t say that, nor imply it. The answer still stands. If a believer falls into some dought regarding faith, confession is the answer.

 

[guanophore]

And if he lost his salvation then he would no longer “know God,” “love” God, and certainly not “serve” God. He would again be as a "natural man:"1 Cor 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."He would be in need of hearing the gospel message all over again and hopefully believe.

Is this salvation cycle really how the N.T. Scriptures describe salvation. I don’t think so!

No,but your concept of salvation also does not fit with the scriptures either. One does not attain salvation until the Last Day, so even if a person has fallen from the state of grace infused at baptism, one can be restored through repentance, unless one persistently resists the Holy Spirit until death. Both Judas and Peter betrayed Christ. Judas died in despair (presumably). Peter repented, and was restored by Christ to a state of grace. I disagree with you that a person fallen from grace returns to their previous state of ignorance and unregeneration. Such a person has been changed by the encounter with God, and their last state is worse than their first.

But if one, as you say, pulls the plug" on himself, then he is no longer a believer, but has reverted back to an unbelieving state. He is again “dead in trespasses and sins.” He is no longer “in Christ” but again a sinner in Adam and in a totally unjustified state.

Now according to RC’ism, how does an adult unbeliever enter into “initial” justification?

A person who is not acting in faith is not the same as an unbeliever. Remember when Paul confronted Peter about his hypocrisy of no longer eating with gentiles? Peter was acting in a faithless manner (not behaving in accordance with his own beliefs about salvation) but that did not return him to the Adamic state. his actions were unjustified, but he did not revert to the state of an unregenerate mind. Once initial justification has occurred, a permanent change has taken place.

The doctrines of salvation are not found in, or built upon, parables - not even Christ’s. They’re found in the post-cross teachings of the Epistles. The parables Christ presented to the Jews, prior to His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection, did not necessarily take His atoning work on the cross into consideration. His parables taught, in a limited way, a specific lesson by example, but they are not salvation doctrines based on and rooted in His atoning work on the cross. For these you must go to the Epistles.

Wow. I wonder if it hurts Jesus feelings to know his teachings about salvation are not really relevant?..good thing there was Paul, since what Jesus taught was insufficient…

 

[mikeledes]

Paul’s warning in Rom. 11 is to Gentiles in general. The gospel of salvation through faith in Christ alone came to them BECAUSE of national Israel’s transgression of unbelief in her Messiah. The Gentiles now stand only by their faith (not works). Turn away from the gospel message of salvation through faith in Christ alone, either by outright rejection or corrupting it (both equal unbelief), and the Gentiles (as a people), like national Israel, will be broken off from the privilege of being in God’s favor.

Hi Apophasis! I was wondering what happened to you. I agree with most of your analysis except for the above. Paul goes from generalities to specifics. The transition from generalties to specifics occurs in verses 17-22.

Romans 11:17-21

**17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. **

Those Israelites that did not believe were cut off. Those who were cut off can be grafted in again, provided they discontinue their unbelief.

**23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. **

As I said in my previous posts, verses 17-21 only applies to Gentile Christians because only they can be grafted into the olive tree and only they **stand by their faith ** (v.20). If unbelieving Israelites were cut off from the tree because of their unbelief, unbelieving Gentiles cannot be grafted in. If they were not grafted in, then they cannot actually partake of the rich root of the tree and hence be holy. Moreover, you cannot be cut off if you were not grafted in first. And why should Gentiles who stand by their faith fear (v.20)?

** 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.**

Who are the “you” Paul is refering to? All Gentiles who stand by their faith (v.20). Verse 20 is crucial because it clearly shows that Paul has moved from general statements about Gentiles and Israelites, to specific statements about Gentile Christians. Believing Gentiles must also fear the possibility that they too will be cut off from the olive tree they were grafted in. An unbelieving Gentile has access to God’s kindness, but is not in God’s kindness because he/she has no faith. If they are not in God’s kindness, they logically cannot continue in it. While Paul starts with generalities, the warning (v.v. 21-22) is specifically directed to Gentile Christians.

Now I ask you to do what you asked me to do. Do not filter this passage through your preconceived idead (i.e. eternal security).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

**Originally Posted by apophasis **
The doctrines of salvation are not found in, or built upon, parables - not even Christ’s. They’re found in the post-cross teachings of the Epistles. The parables Christ presented to the Jews, prior to His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection, did not necessarily take His atoning work on the cross into consideration. His parables taught, in a limited way, a specific lesson by example, but they are not salvation doctrines based on and rooted in His atoning work on the cross. For these you must go to the Epistles.

No offense, but this has to be the most outrageous claim I have ever heard. Jesus consistently taught about salvation and salvation is always rooted in His atoning work on the Cross. There is no salvation apart from the Cross, Old or New Testaments. All those saved prior to Christ’s death and resurrection were saved the same way those of the Church Age are saved. What Jesus says about entering the kingdom of heaven and eternal life is binding doctrine on all Christians and was not superseded or changed by the Epistles. Since there are several passages in the Gospels that emphasize the necessity of faith and works in order to enter the heavenly kingdom, I can see why such an explanation is necessary.

God Bless,
Michael

God Bless,
Michael

 

[byrdele]

To Apophosas:

Who says that Christ did not teach the doctrines of salvation? Yes, He did. The Epistles are equally important, written by men but the Author of which is the Holy Spirit. I am not going to start looking up all of Paul’s verses because I am not going to convince you, so why bother? I don’t say this in a mean way, but really, I spent 20 years in the “once saved always saved” camp before I came back to the Catholic Church.I know the arguments, the verses used to back that belief. I’ve studied the doctrine and started to doubt it, due partially to the parables and also looking at the Bible as a whole, including the letter of James, and including Paul’s warning to work out your salvation in fear (awe) and trembling. If God Incarnate tells a story about the prodigal son who was dead and now alive, lost and now found, then I am going to believe Him. He doesn’t say that the boy took leave of his senses, that he got his priorities mixed up or, one of my non-favourite words of this era, that he has “issues”… no, he describes him as having been lost and dead. Clearly he was a son of the father before setting off on his merry way and became alive and found again when he came back home. When God Incarnate tells the story about the servant given the talent who simply hides it and is thrown into the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth, more commonly known as Hell, then I am going to believe Him. He is God, after all. I do not believe that His parables were limited in any way. He was using them to teach the people what they needed to do in order to inherit the Kingdom of God. That is, obey Him in every way. That means laying our lives down for Him, committing to his saving grace, and acting out our faith so that we are the sheep who enter heaven.

People walk in and out of salvation daily like we are in some Twilight Zone episode. I really believe that, given the Good Shepherd will come find us, that the woman who loses the coin will tear her house apart to find it, that it must be truly difficult to walk away from God. Even the prodigal son, out of self-interest maybe (I don’t see a lot of remorse on his part in the story, more the desire to eat) “came to his senses” and returned. So looking at the Bible as a whole, I do believe that it is awfully hard to truly walk away from God. But,

This will probably be my last entry. I don’t know why I entered the debate. Controlled debates are good and healthy, but debates like this just go on and on with no one convincing anyone of anything and then eventually turn ugly. Don’t want to be here when that happens.

Regards to all,

byrdele

 

[Pax]

Well I haven’t seen it yet!I’m sure you will. But you’ve demonstrated how you often fail to understand Scriptural verses in their proper context.But the context should have made it quite obvious. See what I mean about context? Context means EVERYTHING, Pax. It can even prevent one from assuming the wrong conclusion. At least question it.

I see “granophore” lacks the same discernment.

If you give me a whole list of verses YOU think Paul is teaching a true believer, now co-crucified, co-buried and co-resurrected with Christ; translated from Adam to Adam; justified giftwise by faith through Christ’s redemptive work (Rom. 3:24); now reconciled to God through the death of His Son, can lose all this that God Himself accomplished for him through Christ, then please provide me with the proper context as well.

Show me that Paul clearly teaches that all of the above are divinely reversed and the “once believer” is again unregenerated; again dead, spiritually, to the things of God; again dead in trespasses and sins; again in Adam, no longer in Christ; again no longer reconciled to God. Show me that Paul teaches that he is literally back to the original unbelieving estate he was in prior to believing.

In fact such a one would remember nothing of what it was like to have once believed. Such a one would not be in need of a sacrament, Pax, but the gospel of Christ to be preached to him all over again. And who’s to say he would believe again? And in the case of those who teach that salvation is entered into through baptism, he would need to be baptized all over again.

If a man can truly lose his salvation, then salvation is a risky business, indeed. And God, through the cross of Christ, has no more power than the weakest believer. Nor do the so-called “saving works of grace” you say God Himself performs through him. And if that’s the case, then it is God who has failed, not the man.

Paise the Lord Paul teaches no such “gospel.” But instead:Rom. 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek”

Your accusations about context are laughable. Furthermore, claiming that I have problems with context because of your written errors is pretty funny. Paul didn’t leave any words out in his letters as you did. Moreover, I questioned you about it to get a clarification and thanked you for explaining “your” mistake. My correct reading of your missive has nothing to do with a proper appreciation of context. Your accusation is a smoke screen with no substance behind it.

The context of your missive with the “typo” in place was confusing. This was exacerbated by your statement that the Christian is “obligated” to do good works. I will demonstrate this by the meaning and definition of “obligated.”

ob·li·gate

vt óbbli gàyt] (past and past participle ob·li·gat·ed, present participle ob·li·gat·ing, 3rd person present singular ob·li·gates)

1. compel somebody legally or morally: to compel somebody to do something as a legal or moral duty
2. U.S. commit funds as security: to commit something, especially funds, to fulfill an obligation, e.g. as security

My handy Thesaurus gives the following substitute terms:

force, oblige, necessitate, make necessary, compel, make, require, coerce.

Now, when we look at the dictionary definition of the word “obligated” it becomes very clear that you have some problems using that term within the framework of your formerly stated theology. Obligated means that we are morally and legally compelled by justification to do good works. I find it almost comical that the definition also includes the word “security.” Spiritually we can obviously apply this to our “eternal security” which would therefore be tied to the good works that we are, in your words, obligated to do.

Please don’t accuse me of not getting the context and don’t use your typo error as your arrow. You got yourself jammed up with your own terminology and typographical error…this was not my doing…I simply needed you to explain yourself. By the way, you never did talk your way out of your statements that contained the term “obligated” and I did question that as well.

 

[Pax]

So, let’s see what Paul says to Christians about things that can affect our salvation. I will let scripture be its own context and those that read the passages can judge for themselves if I have misused them.

In the first chapter of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians he immediately chastises his Christian brothers and sisters for the divisions that are among them. In chapter 3, Paul chastises them further for still living in the flesh. In chapter 4, Paul says that he isn’t aware of anything against himself, but he says that he is not acquitted and that the Lord** judges** him. In chapter 5 Paul speaks of all kinds of serious immorality that has been reported among the members of the Church at Corinth including the toleration of a man living with his father’s wife, and goes on to mention greedy people, robbers, revilers, drunkards, and idolators.

Paul continues with warnings through Chapter 8. He then issues more warnings in Chapter 10 and speaks of how the Lord “destroyed” many of the Israelites in the wilderness. He says " I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless with most of them God was not pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to dance.” We must not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents; nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."

Please take note that all of the saved in the OT are saved in the same way we are. They followed the supernatual rock which is Christ and they were saved in an anticipatory fashion by Jesus sacrifice on the cross. Nevertheless, many displeased God and were overthrown in the wilderness. They never made it to the promised land and they were destroyed. Likewise, we can lose salvation by squandering our inheritance as they did. This is precisely why Paul says, “these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.” Paul then goes on in the remainder of Chapter 11 to warn us about receiving the Lord’s body and blood in the Eucharist unworthily and that doing so profanes the body and blood of Christ and brings guilt and judgment and condemnation upon the person.

Paul later goes on to talk about the necessity of love and he even says that love is greater than faith. Then Chapter 15 opens with this statement:

“NOW I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast–unless you believed in vain.” All of this clearly shows that we are not saved by “faith alone” and that a person can lose their salvation. The real clincher concerning what Paul is saying in his first letter to the Corinthians is to be found in his second letter where he says:

“For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it (though I did regret it), for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. **For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation **and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death. For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you,”[2 Cor 2:7-11]

Godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation in a believer that has sinned. Notice what this says and notice the context. This is a reference to all of the things Paul said in his first letter to them. Clearly we are not once saved always saved, and we are not saved by faith alone. When we sin we must have aa godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.

 

[mikeledes]

So, let’s see what Paul says to Christians about things that can affect our salvation. I will let scripture be its own context and those that read the passages can judge for themselves if I have misused them.

In the first chapter of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians he immediately chastises his Christian brothers and sisters for the divisions that are among them. In chapter 3, Paul chastises them further for still living in the flesh. In chapter 4, Paul says that he isn’t aware of anything against himself, but he says that he is not acquitted and that the Lord** judges** him. In chapter 5 Paul speaks of all kinds of serious immorality that has been reported among the members of the Church at Corinth including the toleration of a man living with his father’s wife, and goes on to mention greedy people, robbers, revilers, drunkards, and idolators.

Paul continues with warnings through Chapter 8. He then issues more warnings in Chapter 10 and speaks of how the Lord “destroyed” many of the Israelites in the wilderness. He says " I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless with most of them God was not pleased; for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to dance.” We must not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents; nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."

Please take note that all of the saved in the OT are saved in the same way we are. They followed the supernatual rock which is Christ and they were saved in an anticipatory fashion by Jesus sacrifice on the cross. Nevertheless, many displeased God and were overthrown in the wilderness. They never made it to the promised land and they were destroyed. Likewise, we can lose salvation by squandering our inheritance as they did. This is precisely why Paul says, “these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.” Paul then goes on in the remainder of Chapter 11 to warn us about receiving the Lord’s body and blood in the Eucharist unworthily and that doing so profanes the body and blood of Christ and brings guilt and judgment and condemnation upon the person.

Paul later goes on to talk about the necessity of love and he even says that love is greater than faith. Then Chapter 15 opens with this statement:

“NOW I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast–unless you believed in vain.” All of this clearly shows that we are not saved by “faith alone” and that a person can lose their salvation. The real clincher concerning what Paul is saying in his first letter to the Corinthians is to be found in his second letter where he says:

“For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it (though I did regret it), for I see that that letter grieved you, though only for a while. As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. **For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation **and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death. For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you,”[2 Cor 2:7-11]

Godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation in a believer that has sinned. Notice what this says and notice the context. This is a reference to all of the things Paul said in his first letter to them. Clearly we are not once saved always saved, and we are not saved by faith alone. When we sin we must have aa godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This week’s promise: The gift of salvation None can boast
God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT
The Holy Club

Charles Wesley and two friends began a small Christian group at Oxford University in 1728. John Wesley, who had already graduated from Oxford, returned the following year as a tutor and assumed its leadership. Oxford students made fun of the group, referring to it as the “Holy Club” or “Methodists.”
The focus of the Holy Club was on religious self-discipline. Exhorting each other to live piously and do good works, they were motivated by the belief that they were working for the salvation of their souls.
George Whitefield was the first Holy Club member to question their practices. His solution, however, was to try to become a new creation through further extremes of self-denial. During Lent in 1735 he only ate a little course bread with tea. By Holy Week he was so weak that he could not study or even walk up a flight of stairs. After hitting bottom, he later wrote, “God was pleased to remove the heavy load, to enable me to lay hold of his dear Son by a living faith…”
On May 5, 1735, Whitefield wrote a letter to John Wesley, attempting to share what had happened to him. It would be three more years before the Wesleys found His gracious arms.
Reflection
Have you ever found yourself trying to earn your salvation? Salvation is a gift to be received from God, and there is nothing we can do to earn it. Good works do not lead us to Christ—it is out of our relationship with Christ that good works flow.

 

[mikeledes]

This week’s promise: The gift of salvation None can boast
God saved you by his special favor when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT
The Holy Club

Charles Wesley and two friends began a small Christian group at Oxford University in 1728. John Wesley, who had already graduated from Oxford, returned the following year as a tutor and assumed its leadership. Oxford students made fun of the group, referring to it as the “Holy Club” or “Methodists.”
The focus of the Holy Club was on religious self-discipline. Exhorting each other to live piously and do good works, they were motivated by the belief that they were working for the salvation of their souls.
George Whitefield was the first Holy Club member to question their practices. His solution, however, was to try to become a new creation through further extremes of self-denial. During Lent in 1735 he only ate a little course bread with tea. By Holy Week he was so weak that he could not study or even walk up a flight of stairs. After hitting bottom, he later wrote, “God was pleased to remove the heavy load, to enable me to lay hold of his dear Son by a living faith…”
On May 5, 1735, Whitefield wrote a letter to John Wesley, attempting to share what had happened to him. It would be three more years before the Wesleys found His gracious arms.
Reflection
Have you ever found yourself trying to earn your salvation? Salvation is a gift to be received from God, and there is nothing we can do to earn it. Good works do not lead us to Christ—it is out of our relationship with Christ that good works flow.

Good works done by a Christian are the manifestation of faith working through love. This love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit freely given to Christians. Please read the following link on reward and merit in Catholic theology:

catholic.com/library/reward_and_merit.asp

mark-shea.com/merit.html

Catholic teachings on merit and reward are rooted in God’s promise, not in a creditor vs. debtor relationship.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

ALLFORHIM,

I am not preaching works salvation and I have never thought that I could earn my way to heaven. The Catholic view is that everything is by grace. The works we do are described in Eph 2:8-10 and they are intimately and inextricably interwoven in our salvation. God brought to faith by his grace and love and this is not our doing. Likewise, we become a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared in advance of our salvation.

Even our love of God is a supernatural gift of God, and it to is absolutely nececessary for our salvation. We are, according to Catholic teaching, saved by grace by the merits of Jesus Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection. It is likewise by grace that we do the works of the justified. The works that we do in faith working through love, per Gal 5:6, are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls. All of the credit and glory go to God.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Continuation, Continuation, Continuation!

If grace isn’t Continual at the point of death then the effects of sin are!

God is not God of the Instantaneous only. God is the I AM–not I WAS at an instant!

Why shouldn’t we have to Continue in grace if we are following a Continuing God?

If we can in an instant receive grace–don’t tell me that we can’t in an instant lose it.

Have it when you die or you’ll burn in Hell. It really is that simple!

If it wasn’t that simple then all we’d be is stamped robots!

 

[Pax]

ALLFORHIM,

I’m curious to know if you have found anything wrong with my explanation of first Corinthians. The letter’s meaning and intent seems obvious to me. What is your view?

 

[kaycee]

ALLFORHIM,

I am not preaching works salvation and I have never thought that I could earn my way to heaven. The Catholic view is that everything is by grace. The works we do are described in Eph 2:8-10 and they are intimately and inextricably interwoven in our salvation. God brought to faith by his grace and love and this is not our doing. Likewise, we become a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works that the Father prepared in advance of our salvation.

Even our love of God is a supernatural gift of God, and it to is absolutely nececessary for our salvation. We are, according to Catholic teaching, saved by grace by the merits of Jesus Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection. It is likewise by grace that we do the works of the justified. The works that we do in faith working through love, per Gal 5:6, are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls. All of the credit and glory go to God.

Cooporation is required in the RCC system to maintain a state of grace. Works are required to maintain a state of grace by receiveing the sacraments, themselves being channels of grace. Grace is recieved thru works and the sacraments as merit, not unmerited favor. This grace can never perfect by the very fact that they must be repeated endlessly thru ones lifetime.

The biblical definitions of Grace and Faith and the RC definitions are very different.

Dogmatic Faith is also a required for salvation, in other words everything the Catholic church teaches MUST be believed including purgatory, indulgences, the Marian doctrines, Transubstantiation, mortal sin for missing sunday mass and other days of obligation, confession to a priest, Papal infallibility, baptismal regeneration, the treasury of merit that mixes Christs merit and those of the saints, etc…

I believe the couching of this information in “evangelical friendly terms” is deceptive on the part of catholic apologists.

 

[Pax]

Kaycee,

You simply do not understand or appreciate Catholic teaching. And by the way…what’s wrong with believing Church teaching? I believe Church teaching because it is the truth and it is well supported by scripture. You obviously do not agree, but there really is nothing that makes your view superior to mine. You simply look at scripture differently.

I have not couched anything in “evangelical friendly terms,” nor have I been deceptive in anyway. I simply expressed what Catholics truly believe. If this is friendly to evangelicals then I am filled with joy. As Christians we have much in common. We should celebrate what we share and look carefully upon our differences. Perhaps you actually accept and believe more of what the Catholic Church really teaches than you realize. I do not engage in subterfuge or any form of deception, and would find doing so in a religious discussion to be totally abhorent.

 

[Pax]

Kaycee,

I also invite you to comment on my presentation on Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians.

 

[kaycee]

Kaycee,

You simply do not understand or appreciate Catholic teaching. And by the way…what’s wrong with believing Church teaching? I believe Church teaching because it is the truth and it is well supported by scripture. You obviously do not agree, but there really is nothing that makes your view superior to mine. You simply look at scripture differently.

I have not couched anything in “evangelical friendly terms,” nor have I been deceptive in anyway. I simply expressed what Catholics truly believe. If this is friendly to evangelicals then I am filled with joy. As Christians we have much in common. We should celebrate what we share and look carefully upon our differences. Perhaps you actually accept and believe more of what the Catholic Church really teaches than you realize. I do not engage in subterfuge or any form of deception, and would find doing so in a religious discussion to be totally abhorent.

Sorry, I did not mean to say you in particular were being deceptive. That was a general comment aimed at the more well known catholic apologists

What in my description of RC teaching makes you think i do not understand? I am fully aware there is more to it, I was just trying to be succinct.

 

[Pax]

Kaycee,

I used to post over on CARM under the name STJ. I posted the very same statements and more on that site, and no one, including you, ever accused me of trying be deceptive or that I was attempting fool anyone by using evangelical friendly language. I did, however, get plenty of ineffective argument against my statements.