"Works" Salvation?

[Linkowski]

It is. You reject the doctrines of the Church you reject Jesus. When Paul persecuted the Church, Jesus Christ was persecuted.

So yes, rejecting the Catholic Church is rejecting Jesus Christ. The Church is know as the Mystical Body of Christ.

Though, I don’t blame Protestants from their beliefs to be true because they were raised that way. It’s not the fault of their own that they are mislead the the man-made tradition of Protestantism.

It would be interesting to see you handle the “Catholics, Born Again??” thread to see an issue with Catholic teaching on the rebirth. The issue is very clear.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It would be interesting to see you handle the “Catholics, Born Again??” thread to see an issue with Catholic teaching on the rebirth. The issue is very clear.

I have already posted my comments on that thread. I’m sure you have read them.

 

[Odell]

The key word in your post is discipline. You mistakenly assume that means atoning, or expiatory sufferings; it does not; it means discipline (cf Dt 8:5; 2 Sam 7:14; Pro 13:24; 19:18; 23:13ff).

No the verse says discipline and that is what I believe. I never said anything about atoning.

this all started by you saying

That said, believers will sin, but their sin was dealt with at the cross—all of it (Col 2:13ff et al).

and I asked why then do we still suffer for our sins?

then you ask me to prove it.

I gave you the verse we are disciplined for our sins. Why?

 

[Pax]

May the uninvited also partake of your reserach?

Absolutely…just PM me with an email address. The files are too big for a PM.

 

[guanophore]

GOD

OK, kaycee, you say that the Catholic Church did not write the bible, and I asked you who you though wrote it, and you answered “God”. So, how did this happen? Did it appear in a slab of stone like the 10 commandments, or what?

 

[Mannyfit75]

OK, kaycee, you say that the Catholic Church did not write the bible, and I asked you who you though wrote it, and you answered “God”. So, how did this happen? Did it appear in a slab of stone like the 10 commandments, or what?

Did the Bible fell down from the sky and landed at the laps of the Apostles?

 

[sandusky]

Odell:

No the verse says discipline and that is what I believe. I never said anything about atoning.

this all started by you saying

and I asked why then do we still suffer for our sins?

then you ask me to prove it.

I gave you the verse we are disciplined for our sins. Why?

Forgive me, Odell, but I’m not following you.

You seem to be attaching some significance to a believer suffering for his sins; tell me what you mean by “we suffer for our sins,” and why that is significant to you, if indeed it is.

 

[kaycee]

OK, kaycee, you say that the Catholic Church did not write the bible, and I asked you who you though wrote it, and you answered “God”. So, how did this happen? Did it appear in a slab of stone like the 10 commandments, or what?

Don’t you know?

 

[guanophore]

I think William Webster has a fairly good grasp of Catholic theology.

Care to show me his lies and deceptions?

Should I create a new thread called the Lies and Deceptions of William Webster?

Yes! Please do so. Sounds like fun.

 

[guanophore]

God who spoke through his Church. “He who hears you, hears me.”

now you are saying “church”. But the bible “is not a Catholic book” the poster says, so which church is that?!

 

[Mannyfit75]

now you are saying “church”. But the bible “is not a Catholic book” the poster says, so which church is that?!

God spoke through His Church and the Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit form the canon of Scripture.

Remember the Church is also the Body of Christ.

 

[Linkowski]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so **that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.” **

What does that mean to you? being faithful to the commandments so as to obtain eternal life. Do we get to heaven by keeping commandments?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.”

What does that mean to you? being faithful to the commandments so as to obtain eternal life. Do we get to heaven by keeping commandments?

Are you sure you are reading the right Catechism?

1345 states this,

1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1345.htm

 

[Mannyfit75]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.”

What does that mean to you? being faithful to the commandments so as to obtain eternal life. Do we get to heaven by keeping commandments?

You remove some of the context of the Passage.

Let us take look what it really says.

 

[Mannyfit75]

1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

 

[Milliardo]

The teaching of the Church (Catholic) is that if one is “good” one may be graced by God with salvation.

Thus,… no one is left out.

That is correct, and exactly my point.

The point of being a member of the Church is that it gives one the BEST chance of salvation because it the most FULL measure of faith available.

Indeed; but CCC 846 also notes that it is not the only means, though certainly being in the Church is the best means.

Salvation is ALWAYS a matter between an individual and God.

Yes and no. Yes, since a person is answerable to God, though it is also a no since a person must work within a community, and the Church is that community. He is after all a member of it. So in a better sense, salvation is matter between an individual and God through the Church.

He who is worthy in God’s eye will be saved, and all others will not be. Period.

Ah, but what is the basis then of this worthiness of ours then?

If you think you can’t be condemned after being “saved”, you suffer from an illness.

That is most correct.

If you only do good because you think you can “bargain with God” for salvation, then you suffer from another illness.

That is correct, though I do not find this attitude very often. It would be a selfish individual who does so.

 

[Mannyfit75]

1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits. When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

This passage pertains to the Holy Mass. I don’t see how this passage in pertains to this thread. Are you trying to throw this topic off the topic, which you have seen to mislead us Catholics.

Like a caferia Catholic, Links seem to PICK AND CHOOSE what part of the CCC seem to contradict the Bible… :whacky:

 

[Pax]

Here ya go, sandusky, the three occasions for Abraham - they bring it up each time. …
…
…
…

Yes, Linkowski we do bring it up because it is true. Your efforts to deflect that truth are misplaced. Scripture is clear.

Keep it simple and accept the obvious.

In Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 makes reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-4 and says, “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.” We know this is a reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, " Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval." Divine approval is given for a person’s faith only when it is a saving faith.

James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as rightousness; and he was called the friend of God.”

 

[Milliardo]

Aren’t Catholics born-again Christians?

I’m speaking about Protestant Fundamentalist Christians. It’s very rare for a Catholic to call himself such, as the term is more in vogue with Protestant Fundamentalism.

 

[sandusky]

I’m speaking about Protestant Fundamentalist Christians. It’s very rare for a Catholic to call himself such, as the term is more in vogue with Protestant Fundamentalism.

So Catholics never do those things that you described; is that correct?