"Works" Salvation?

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I was pointing out the inconsistency in Catholic theology with respect to Jn 6, and other figurative biblical passages; that can be done with the respect to the Last Supper discourse
as well.
Yes, of course you ocan point out inconsistencies all over the place! This is a common by product of rejecting the authority of the church to interpret the scriptures. The Church teaches that there are no inconsistencies. therefore, people who are finding them are not properly educated and are making errors of interpretation.
 
Ah, yes…Sola Ecclesia; I forgot.
No, Sandusky, this sarcastic comment does not accurately reflect Catholic teaching. Catholcs wrote and preserved the scriptures, and they are Catholic books. They are a source of divine revelation, and the Church most properly interprets them. It is not “Sola Ecclesia”.
 
Rejecting the Church to rejecting JESUS is a bit of a leap, dont ya think?:confused:
Not at all. Jesus said to his Apostles "40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.
Matt 10:40-41

So those that reject the successors of the Apostles are rejecting both the Son,and the Father.
 
Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.”

What does that mean to you? being faithful to the commandments so as to obtain eternal life. Do we get to heaven by keeping commandments?
Yes! John 8:51
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death.

But I will qualify that by saying that this is the case because Jesus conquered death on the cross, and that we were buried with Him in baptism, and this is how we can now access eternal life through the privilge of obedience. 🙂
 
This passage pertains to the Holy Mass. I don’t see how this passage in pertains to this thread. Are you trying to throw this topic off the topic, which you have seen to mislead us Catholics.

Like a caferia Catholic, Links seem to PICK AND CHOOSE what part of the CCC seem to contradict the Bible… :whacky:
This passage is what started the thread! Go back and read the OP.
 
You know the scriptures; what do they say?
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
I certainly have believed the Apostolic message directly from the apostles themselves in the scripture! 👍
Is rejection of the Church founded by Christ, which speaks for Christ, a rejection of him or not? HE says it is!
I absolutely embrace the Lord as my savior and the Church he founded described in the God Breathed scripture. I believe every single word of the Apostolic message penned in our “New Testament”.
"He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9:4)Saul was persecuting the early Church, but Jesus says, “Why do you persecute me?”
Once the church departed from the teaching the Gospel of Grace it was no longer a Church.

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
You may not be formal heretics, but you are material heretics. This is not intended as a put-down - just as a statement of fact. I wouldn’t be doing you any favors by telling you otherwise.
And I also pray that you would turn from the treadmill of sacramentalism to the Savior who needs know mediators to save those He will.
 
Not at all. Jesus said to his Apostles "40 "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.
Matt 10:40-41

So those that reject the successors of the Apostles are rejecting both the Son,and the Father.
Who is rejecting the apostles message? We have it as plain as day in the Scripture!

Jesus WAS speaking the Apostles correct?
 
I certainly have believed the Apostolic message directly from the apostles themselves in the scripture! 👍
Then you would have rejected the Apostle’s message for the first 20 years because there was no New Testament written yet? That’s the logical progression from your statement.
I absolutely embrace the Lord as my savior and the Church he founded described in the God Breathed scripture. I believe every single word of the Apostolic message penned in our “New Testament”.
Once the church departed from the teaching the Gospel of Grace it was no longer a Church.
If you say so…Try telling that to Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Too bad that has no application to the Catholic Church, but more possibly to those who came some 1500 years or so later and departed from the New Testament Gospel of Christ.
And I also pray that you would turn from the treadmill of sacramentalism to the Savior who needs know mediators to save those He will.
What treadmill? Even Christ Himself used physical things to convey grace. A bright light knocked Saul down, a touch of the hem of His garment conveyed His healing, mud, spit, water all clearly sacramental in nature, whether you will admit it or not.

I find the following Sacraments in the following passages.

Baptism: John 3:3,5, & 22-23, 2nd Kings 5:14, Ezekiel 36:25, Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 16:15 & 33, 22:16,) Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.). Romans 6:3, 1st Corinthians 1:16, 6:11, and 15:29
**
Reconciliation (Confession):**Leviticus. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 (even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.). Matthew 3:6,18:18, 9:6 & 8, Mark 2:7, John 20:21-23, Acts 19:18, 2nd Corinthians 5:18-19, James 5:16, 1st John 1:9-10.

The Eucharist: Foreshadowed extensively! John 6:31-70, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-20, Luke 24:30-35, 1st Corinthians 10:16-17, 1st Corinthians 11:23-30.

Confirmation: Acts 8:15-18, 19:5-6, Hebrews 6:2,

Matrimony: Genesis 2:20-24, Matthew 19:5-6, Mark 10:8, Ephesians 5:22-32, Hebrews 13:4

Holy Orders: Genesis 14:18, Exodus 19:22, Psalm 110:4, Malachi 2:7, John 20:21, Acts 9:17, 13:3, 14:23, 20:28, Ephesisns 4:11, 1st THessalonians 5:12, 1st Timothy 4:14, 1st Timothy 1:6, Titus 1:5, Hebrews 5:1 & 7:17.

The Sacrament of the Sick: Matthew 10:8, Mark 6:13 & 18, James 5:14-16.

I don’t know why you didn’t see it when it’s been in the Word of God and believed by the church for 2,000 years.
 
I certainly have believed the Apostolic message directly from the apostles themselves in the scripture! 👍
I absolutely embrace the Lord as my savior and the Church he founded described in the God Breathed scripture. I believe every single word of the Apostolic message penned in our “New Testament” and Old Testament.
Once A church departed from the teaching the Gospel of Grace it was no longer a Church.
Your right, it is called an ecumenical gathering or service.

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

And I also pray that you would turn from the treadmill of your personal interpertations and return to the Savior who needs know mediators to save those who follow his command.
How can a person say this stuff and not see the image of themselves in the mirror.
 
Who is rejecting the apostles message? We have it as plain as day in the Scripture!

Jesus WAS speaking the Apostles correct?
I will answer this if you take it to a new thread. We are off topic.
 
Who is rejecting the apostles message? We have it as plain as day in the Scripture!

Jesus WAS speaking the Apostles correct?
Do you accept the Eucharistic Real Presence as taught by Our Lord in John 6 and by St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 10:16-17 and 11:23-30? If not you have rejected that part of the Gospel.

Do you confess your sins in the hearing of an apostolic successor in compliance with John 20:21-23 and Acts 19:18, 2nd Corinthians 5:18-19, James 5:16, 1st John 1:9-10? If not then you have embraced a different gospel and a new wind of doctrine.

Do you believe that your baptism washed away sins as taught in the passages that I have cited above? If not then you adhere to a different gospel from both the New Testament and the one that the early church preached and died for.

The rest is all there Kaycee…
The “different gospel” isn’t the Catholic one.
 
So it would seem that the odject of this thread “works” salvation has been resolved. First, the Catholic Church does not teach or believe in a work “alone” salvation and never has.

We rely on God’s grace and we are responsible for doing God’s will for our salvation.
 
Lazerlike42:

I have some issue with you last entry and I will take these one at a time…

Forst - dikaioo…the word for justified is…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.
  1. Justified in the case of James 2 is speaking of justified in the sense of the outward appearance. Remember, James in concerned with the “showing” of faith…
James 2:18 KJV 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This has no reference to justification in the sense of the legal declaration that happens when one is born again. Justified is used in that sense in other areas of scripture.

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Link
You have a serious problem here and it is affecting your entire view of what James is saying.

James is NOT concerned with “showing faith” as you contend.

Look at the passage carefully. James is arguing a set of facts concerning the connection between faith and works to justification. As part of his statements and arguments he takes to task those that claim salvation by faith alone. He uses the word “show” in verse 18 as a way of setting up that which he will knock down. Notice that he says, “Some will say…” He is pointing out an erroneous statement made by some people that misunderstand the gospel. And notice what he is referring to. He is referring to those that say, “You have faith and I have works.” What he is preparing to knock down is the erroneous separation of the two items of faith and works. He then states that he will essentially “show” how they go hand in hand, and sarcastically says in verse 20 that, “Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?”

He is merely showing and demonstrating how wrong these people are that twist the gospel and then clearly states in unequivocal terms in verse 24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

The “showing” used in James does not set the context. The context is set much earlier when James says “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”[James 1:22]

I hope this helps.
 
So it would seem that the odject of this thread “works” salvation has been resolved. First, the Catholic Church does not teach or believe in a work “alone” salvation and never has.

We rely on God’s grace and we are responsible for doing God’s will for our salvation.
Exactly. It is really sad that some on this thread still think that of the Catholic Church (who gave them the Bible in the first place) and who GAVE them the truth, by fighting and condemning pelagianism (529 AD Council of Orange). It was Pelagius who taught one “could” earn their way to heaven and all of the detractors should be thankful for the Catholic Church explaining the theological truth and standing firm to the Traditions given to them from the Apostles. Despite all of the Scriptural evidence and reason/logical deductions many on this thread still hold to their unScriptural and irrational positions that the Catholic Church teaches works salvation and or that we don’t need to do the works after receiving God’s grace, for salvation; both of which are actually a gift. 🙂
 
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Linkowski:
Here ya go, sandusky, the three occasions for Abraham - they bring it up each time. In James - it states…that the scripture might be fulfilled which saith…Abraham believed God and it was counted to Him for righteousness.
In 2:21, James says that Abraham was justified in Gen 22:12 when God says, “Now I know that you fear God because you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me.”

But, there is more to it than that in the text.

At the beginning of the verse, James asks, “Was not our Father Abraham [already] justified by works WHEN he offered up Isaac on the altar?”

Note works is plural. IOW, Abraham was already justified when he offered up Isaac on the altar; Abraham was not justified, again, further, or anymore by offering up Isaac on the altar.

So then, it is not the one deed of Abraham offering up Isaac on the altar that justifies him, but it is a LIFETIME of obedience that Abraham brings with him to the offering of Isaac that shows he was already justified.

Abraham was unequivocally declared righteous, or justified, Gen 15:6, when it is said of him that, ”Abraham believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”

James does say that Abraham was justified in Jas 2:21; however, that “justification” is said to be a fulfillment of Gen 15:6.

IOW, v23 states that, the offering of Isaac showed that God’s declaration, in Gen 15:6, was accurate; namely, Abraham was righteous.

To deny that, is to ignore the use of the visual verbs James employs, ie., show me…I’ll show you…you see…you see.

OTOH, Paul’s use of that passage, Gen 15:6, and the term justified, is concerned with the question, “How can a man become right before God?”

Paul says in Rom 4:1ff, “what then has Abraham found?” Is it justification by works?

No; Paul says, if Abraham has found justification before God by works, then, “he has [found] something to boast about, but not before God.”

So what is it that Abraham has found that justified him before God?

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Faith is what Abraham found, and, that is what justified him before God—Faith, a gift, and not something to boast about; not works because if by works Abraham could boast (cf Eph 2:8ff).

Notice also, Abraham was not made righteous, but that righteousness was credited TO him [credited, Gk., *logidzomai, a legal term].

IOW, faith did not bring about an inward change in Abraham; faith brought about a change in Abraham’s standing, or status before God. Because of Abraham’s faith, God’s righteousness [Gk *dikaiosūnā], was credited logidzomia] to Abraham. That is the great exchange of the cross, in which the penalty for the sinner’s sin is laid on Christ, and Christ’s righteousness is then imputed to the sinner through faith (2 Cor 5:21).

Paul confirms that Abraham’s change of status is an actual acquittal of the guilt of his sin before God when he says, ”Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account (Rom 4:7-7; cf Ps 32:2).” [Account, Gk *logidzomai, a legal term, same as Rom 4:3].

Paul also says that on the basis of faith, a man is blessed by God’s acquittal because his ”lawless deeds have been forgiven,” and his ”sins have been covered (cf Ps 32:1).”

The inward change in the sinner is wrought prior to faith, because the sinner is dead, spiritually, and must be brought to life (Eph 2:1ff; Col 2:13ff); a dead sinner cannot do much of anything good, let alone believe, which is surely good; therefore, regeneration is needed first, and it is wholly an act of God (Jn 1:13; cf Jas 1:18; 1 Pet 1:3; Jn 3:3-8). We did not choose to be made physically alive, and we did not choose to be born—it is something that happened to us; similarly, the analogies of scripture state that the sinner is passive in regeneration as well—it happens to him (cf Eze 36:26-27).

At the time of justification, one is sanctified as well, in the strict sense of being set apart— that inward change continues throughout life, and that is practical sanctification—the progressive movement away from sin, to holiness.

As stated elsewhere, all of that is a sticking point in the difference between biblical justification, and Catholic justification.

To complete what I have to say on this subject, neither Jesus, nor Paul, nor James, nor any of the other NT writers expects that a person will get to heaven without works, although some will (cf 1 Cor 3); but neither do they anywhere state that one gets to heaven on the basis of works, but, only by grace, through faith (cf Jn 5:24; Rom 1:17; Eph 2:8ff; Titus 3:5; et al).
 
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Pax:
Originally Posted by apophasis:So then, ultimately, salvation hinges on YOUR performance.

Pax: After all that has been said on this thread this kind of comment should be totally ignored. We have demonstrated over and over again that all is by grace. Even our part of accepting God’s gracious gift of faith is prompted by grace. Our love of God, our trust in God, our endurance, our obedience, and our hope in God is by way of grace.

It seems to me, rightly or wrongly, that the non-Catholic position negates scriptural revelation concerning spiritual regeneration and the power of God’s grace. Scripture even warns against the denial of the power of God’s grace in 2 Tim 3:5.

Clearly, grace is the great enabler and without it we can do nothing. If we can do nothing without grace then it is totally inappropriate to argue that anything we do pertaining to salvation is works righteousness. Remember faith is believing and believing is something we do. Faith is a work, which can be proven by scripture, but it is also a gift. Without faith we cannot please God and we cannot be right with God. Nevertheless, we participate in the gift because we believe and we live by faith. This is impossible without grace. We do nothing on our own.
Pax, are you Augustinian? If, as you say, faith is a “gift” of God, He then being the cause of one’s belief; and if, as you say, works are something wrought in the believer by God, God then being the cause of those works; then if salvation which, as you say, is based on faith (gifted/caused by God) and works (caused/wrought by God) fail, causing then the loss of one’s salvation, then this failure and loss MUST OF NECESSITY (based on your soteriology) be attributed to God and God alone. It is God who has failed men, men have not failed God since, as you say, “We do nothing on our own.”
It seems to me, rightly or wrongly, that the non-Catholic position negates scriptural revelation concerning spiritual regeneration and the power of God’s grace. Scripture even warns against the denial of the power of God’s grace in 2 Tim 3:5.
No, Pax, just the opposite. Those who teach that a true believer can lose the divine gift of salvation negates the cross of Christ in which this power of God’s GRACE is rooted. And by claiming that being saved by GRACE through faith alone advocates antinomianism (wrongly defined as “as a license to sin”) you reveal that you utterly fail to understand spiritual regeneration which accompanies the gift of salvation.

But what does the Word of God say to this?1 Cor. 1:18 “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

1 Cor. 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message (i.e., “the word of the cross) preached to save those who believe.”

1 Cor. 1:23-25 "…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."And this gives insight as to why one cannot undertand the power of God’s salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone:1 Cor 2:11-12 “For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God”

1 Cor. 2:14 “But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”
 
I certainly have believed the Apostolic message directly from the apostles themselves in the scripture! 👍
I absolutely embrace the Lord as my savior and the Church he founded described in the God Breathed scripture. I believe every single word of the Apostolic message penned in our “New Testament”.
Once the church departed from the teaching the Gospel of Grace it was no longer a Church.

Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

And I also pray that you would turn from the treadmill of sacramentalism to the Savior who needs know mediators to save those He will.
I mean no insult in what I have to say to your post. I will be blunt, but please accept what I am going to say as if you could actually hear the charity in my voice and the gentle touch of my hand on your hand.

What you accept and embrace is not the gospel as presented by Jesus and taught by the apostles. What you accept and embrace is your interpretation of the gospel and the interpretation of those who discipled you. Unfortunately, there is a difference between the two.

Upon reviewing this thread, it is clear to me that at least in some cases we as Catholics and non-Catholics are talking past one another. Our beliefs run deep and sometimes it is hard to appreciate the other point of view. This is especially true if we only focus on a few scriptures. Broadening the scope of the context in which we read the verses concerning salvation can be helpful.

Scripture convincingly states that no one can please God or be freed from committing sin without faith and the grace of God. It is for this reason that no one initially comes to be in a state of justification before God by any actions of their own. Once we are born again, regenerated, and have the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love infused in us by God, we can then walk in the Spirit and be conformed to the image of Jesus which is God’s purpose for the predestined per Romans 8:29.

Moreover, Romans makes it crystal clear that if we walk in the Spirit by faith then we shall live, but if we live in the flesh we will be condemned. There is a connection between faith and works unto salvation, but it is not works righteousness. It is, instead, the grace of God conforming us to the image of Jesus. You are not merely declared righteous, but you are made righteous and you must live a righteous life in the Spirit as opposed to a sinful life in the flesh. Romans 6 and numerous other areas of the NT are quite clear on this truth.

Isaiah 55:10-11 tells us what happens with God’s grace and his declarations. The action and result of God declaring us righteouness flows from this. The passage says:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return not thither but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it

I hope this helps.
 
1 Cor. 1:18 “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but** to us who are being saved **it is the power of God.”
Shouldn’t this verse say, “to us who are saved”? After all to me, “being saved” implies a process, not a once and one time only type of a thing.

God bless
 
Pax, are you Augustinian? If, as you say, faith is a “gift” of God, He then being the cause of one’s belief; and if, as you say, works are something wrought in the believer by God, God then being the cause of those works; then if salvation which, as you say, is based on faith (gifted/caused by God) and works (caused/wrought by God) fail, causing then the loss of one’s salvation, then this failure and loss MUST OF NECESSITY (based on your soteriology) be attributed to God and God alone. It is God who has failed men, men have not failed God since, as you say, "We do nothing on our own."No, Pax, just the opposite. Those who teach that a true believer can lose the divine gift of salvation negates the cross of Christ in which this power of God’s GRACE is rooted. And by claiming that being saved by GRACE through faith alone advocates antinomianism (wrongly defined as “as a license to sin”) you reveal that you utterly fail to understand spiritual regeneration which accompanies the gift of salvation.

But what does the Word of God say to this?1 Cor. 1:18 “For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

1 Cor. 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message (i.e., “the word of the cross) preached to save those who believe.”

1 Cor. 1:23-25 "…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."And this gives insight as to why one cannot undertand the power of God’s salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone:1 Cor 2:11-12 “For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God”

1 Cor. 2:14 “But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”

You are preaching falsely concerning your own position let alone that of the Catholic position. Try reading Augustine thoroughly and Catholic teaching in general. What you are proposing is a sophist’s argument. You forget, ignore, and basically deny our humanity. You propose that somehow God removes his endowment of free will in man and that therefore, by our view, God is responsible for our falling from grace and being condemned. In reality your position on double predestination is the one that places God in the position of being responsible for the condemnation of those that either do not come to faith or do not persevere. You are the pot attempting to call the kettle black even when there is no kettle.

God gives “sufficient” grace to all men because he desires that all men be saved per 1 Tim 2:4. God’s grace leaves our free will in tact and we can choose to know, love, and serve God or we can choose to turn from him. God loves us and therefore preserves his gift of free will and will not force us. God positively predestines some with particularly efficacious grace which will enable them to persevere no matter what. God gives his grace as He wills for all of the spiritual gifts as well. In no case, however, does God destroy the fact that we are made in His image and likeness with free will. It is for this reason that our choice to turn from him is solely our doing. Suggesting that our position makes God culpable is pure sophistry.
 
I can’t find it right now, but isn’t there a verse in Revelation that contains the threat that someone’s name might be blotted out of the book of life? It couldn’t be blotted out if it hadn’t been written, right?

And in John 6, everyone focuses on the “bread”. There is also the problem of a number of people who once followed Jesus who did no more.

Seems to me that if someone asks me to tie their shoelaces, and I do, and they give me a billion dollars for doing so, it is not so much a reward as a gift. If God gave me eternal life for whatever measly thing I do with mine, it would be a gift, not a reward. I certainly could never really earn it.

Again, any cooperation with God, any will to follow Him, any work we do, all is a gift of God. Grace goes before us to save us; faith is a gift that requires prevenient grace.

What I don’t understand in Catholic theology is how God might give someone grace for a season and then not give final perseverance. You are 99% there but the gas runs out. Sorry. Crash and burn at the last minute.

Maybe this should be a separate thread.
 
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