"Works" Salvation?

[Milliardo]

Don’t you know?

Answer: no. God wrote the Bible? He inspired me to write it; or more precisely, He inspired men to compile it. Which Councils were convened to compile the Bible then?

 

[Milliardo]

So Catholics never do those things that you described; is that correct?

Ah, there are also those who do. The point I am making is that doing good does not come from being “saved”; indeed, if that is the case, then non-believers do only evil. But even believers do, and there are non-Christians who do good. Point being then that doing things does not necessarily solely come from belief in Christ, but it is a decisive act made by an individual who is moved by compassion and love–the very basis of obedience, and one that Jesus sees as the actuation of faith. Again, the premise stands–faith without works is dead. So it is that a Christian, no matter how much he professes Christ as his Saviour, if he is the same lying, cheating, gossiping leech that he is–then salvation is never for him, and his Judgment will be such that he will find himself gnashing his teeth in bitterness. Not really that hard to understand.

 

[kaycee]

Answer: no. God wrote the Bible? He inspired me to write it;

Cool, which book was yours? Hebrews? :bowdown2:

 

[Milliardo]

Cool, which book was yours? Hebrews? :bowdown2:

Show me specifically what God wrote. None, aside from the Ten Commandments. All of the books were written by men; even with the Ten Commandments, He acted through Moses. God speaks through men. Ah, again, it isn’t very hard to understand now, is it? So, as pointed out, which is your cup of tea–did the Bible fell out of the sky, or do you believe “it’s been there all along”?

 

[Mannyfit75]

What does that mean to you? being faithful to the commandments so as to obtain eternal life. Do we get to heaven by keeping commandments?

Jesus said: If you love me, you will obey what I command. (John 14:15 )

We have to be faithful to the commandment if we love Jesus we must adhere to the commandments and obeying them.

Yes, we have to obey the commandments. If we sin, we cannot gain heaven and we will lose it if we sin mortally. Nothing impure can enter into heaven. Jesus also “be perfect as the Father in Heaven is Perfect.”

 

[Pax]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.”

What does that mean to you? being faithful to the commandments so as to obtain eternal life. Do we get to heaven by keeping commandments?

And what does scripture say?

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.

1 Peter 4:18-19
And “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinners?” Therefore, let those suffering in accordance with God’s will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator, while continuing to do good.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil: for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

Rev 22:11-12
Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. “See I am coming soon: my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work.”

 

[Pax]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.”

What does that mean to you? being faithful to the commandments so as to obtain eternal life. Do we get to heaven by keeping commandments?

Here’s some more scripture pertaining to your question":

Romans 2
For he will render to every man according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Romans 8
So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 15
In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed,

Colossians 1
And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Colossians 3
Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1
inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 4
Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Timothy 5
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

1 Timothy 5
and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge.

1 Timothy 6
They are to do good, to be rich in good deeds, liberal and generous, thus laying up for themselves a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed.

 

[Pax]

In my post #328 I presented a sampling of the scriptures which clearly show that we are not saved by faith “alone.”

No one has refuted this post. That particular post can be expanded further with more scripture. That post pointed out the deficiencies in the doctrine of sola scriptura and is a mini version of what I believe to be one of the greatest weaknesses in the teaching.

I can mount arguments from scripture that we are saved by different things. Scripture can be used to argue that we are saved:
– by faith

– by love

– by obedience

– by hope

– by endurance

– by works

– by sanctification

All of the arguments and scriptural passages for each of these are quite clear as to their connections to salvation. Each argument is valid until the word “alone” is added to the scriptural support or the logical strings. The moment the word “alone” is admitted to the arguments they fail. The doctrine of “faith alone” is no exception. Everything that scripture connects to salvation must stay attached to salvation otherwise we truncate the message of scripture. If you do not believe that we are saved by love alone, or by hope alone, or obedience alone, then you cannot logically argue that you are saved by faith alone. Moreover, scripture does not support the view.

Interestingly enough, no where in scripture does it say that we are saved by one of the above “alone.” Scripture does tell us specifically, however, that we are not saved by faith “alone.” Scripture does not make that observation about any of the other terms even though it connects each of them to salvation. That fact should turn on every alarm bell in a bible believing person’s head and heart.

The only statement we can legitimately make concerning salvation using the word “alone” is that we are saved by grace “alone.”

 

[Pax]

So then, ultimately, salvation hinges on YOUR performance.

After all that has been said on this thread this kind of comment should be totally ignored. We have demonstrated over and over again that all is by grace. Even our part of accepting God’s gracious gift of faith is prompted by grace. Our love of God, our trust in God, our endurance, our obedience, and our hope in God is by way of grace.

It seems to me, rightly or wrongly, that the non-Catholic position negates scriptural revelation concerning spiritual regeneration and the power of God’s grace. Scripture even warns against the denial of the power of God’s grace in 2 Tim 3:5.

Clearly, grace is the great enabler and without it we can do nothing. If we can do nothing without grace then it is totally inappropriate to argue that anything we do pertaining to salvation is works righteousness. Remember faith is believing and believing is something we do. Faith is a work, which can be proven by scripture, but it is also a gift. Without faith we cannot please God and we cannot be right with God. Nevertheless, we participate in the gift because we believe and we live by faith. This is impossible without grace. We do nothing on our own.

 

[Lazerlike42]

The bolded and underlined above brings to mind the axiom, easy to do, is easy to say. It’s easy to say what you have said, it is another thing to support it.

I did support it. The verse in James says Abraham was, past tense, justified by his works. You are really dodging the issue here by asking me to support it, because I presented a point of evidence earlier - the tense of the verb - and your response contained no argument but merely a rejection of my conclusion.

What you are doing here is lifting Jesus’ words from their context, and using them to scold James; need I remind you that Jesus is behind the writing of James epistle? Your argument ignores the words of James, you show me…I’ll show you…you see…you see.

If I am not mistaken, my argument was based on the fact that James was essentially written by Jesus through the Holy Spirit. I apologize if I did not in fact make this point clear at first. My point is that Jesus would not say one thing in His life and in inspiring the Holy Gospels and then another when inspiring James’ epistle.

He does, in that verse, connect the two, and attributes justification to each; but he does so in harmony with the overall thrust of the passage: Can a faith without works save? Again, the idea of being able to identify a saving faith is the point of the passage; it is clear from Gen 15, that Abraham was justified before God years prior to Isaac, and on the basis of the future promise of Isaac.

James attributes justification to both faith and to works. The verse says works did something. The difficulty is in asserting that the overall thrust of the passage is to identify ‘saving faith’ or that James is speaking of some particular type of faith. As Jimmy Akin has demonstrated in his somewhat well known work URL=“here”]Justification in James 2, James is just talking about bare faith, not dead faith or living faith.

The real issue here is with Abraham’s justification. If Scripture shows that Abraham was justified twice, then it shows that justification is not binary. If Scripture only shows one justification for Abraham, it would not disprove the Catholic position that justification is not binary, but it would eliminate James 2 as evidence for the position. (continued)

 

[Lazerlike42]

Everyone agrees Abraham was justified in Genesis 15, so we don’t need to address this. The question is whether or not he justified in Genesis 22. Again quoting Jimmy Akin (cin.org/users/james/files/james2.htm)), there are ten reasons why the justification of Abraham in James 2 cannot be regarded as something other than justification before God:

First, in 2:14, James asks: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can faith save him?” Here James shows us that the kind of profit he is interested in is salvation. The kind of faith plus works James is talking about profits toward salvation, which pertains to justification before God, not men. His question, “Can faith save him?” sets the tone for the whole discussion (as it should since it is in the first verse of it). The subject at hand is one’s relationship with God, not one’s reputation among men.

Second, in 2:15-16, James says: “If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?” Here James repeats the term “profit” from his previous argument, and again the subject is actual, substantive profit–having one’s needs taken care of–rather than a non-substantive profit of a justification before men.

Third, in 2:17, as a conclusion to vv. 15-16, James says: “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” Here the term “dead” is introduced as an antonym for “profit.” James thus says that faith without works is dead, the ultimate form of impotence, the ultimate lack of power with respect to the “profit” he has discussed in the preceding three verses. He says faith without works “is dead,” not “dead before men.”

Fourth, to show the impotence of faith alone toward one’s relationship with God, James asks in 2:19, “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder.” Demons have the faith James is talking about – intellectual assent to the truths of God – but it does not stop them from shuddering at the prospect of God’s wrath. This is what James has in mind. He is not saying that demons shudder at the prospect of not having a good reputation among men or that because they have faith alone they lack justification before men. His focus is on the impotence of the demon’s faith to help them before God.

Fifth, in verse 20 James asks, “Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?” Here the term “barren” is taken as the antonym to “profit” and the synonym to “dead” in the preceding verses, meaning that this introductory statement to the arguments which follow shows that the arguments to come are to be interpreted in the light of what has come before, which had definitely not been dealing with “justification before men.”

Sixth, in verse 21, James says, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” This absolutely cannot be read as some kind of justification before men since Abraham and Isaac were the only ones up there on the mount and their drama was played for God’s benefit. He was the witness, not Abraham’s contemporaries.

Seventh, in verse 23a, James says, “[A]nd the scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” Who in that Scripture did the reckoning? Was it men or God? It was not men, but God. Thus justification before God.

Eighth, in 23b James states: “[A]nd he was called the friend of God.” Important question: Who called Abraham God’s friend? God himself did: “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend” (Isa. 41:8). Thus justification before God.

Ninth, in verse 26, James says: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” Again, James does not say that the body appears dead before men but that the body is dead without the spirit.

Tenth, the whole “justification before men” argument rests on a linguistic slight of hand trick where one phrase is used to mean something completely different. By speaking of “justification before men” and “justification before God,” the argument creates the illusion that the same kind of justification is being spoken of in both cases, simply the audience is different, being men in one case and God in the other.

Any one of these reasons alone would be enough to disqualify the interpretation that James is not talking about the same kind of justification as Paul was.

 

[Pax]

What does scripture say about grace and the power associated with grace? Let’s take a look:

Phill 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

1 Cor 10:13
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing **he will also provide **the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that **you may be strengthened **in your inner being **with power **through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace,

1 Peter 4:10-11
Like good stewards of the manifold grace of God, serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received. Whoever speaks must do so as one speaking the very words of God; whoever serves must do so with the strength that God supplies, so that God may be glorified in all things through Jesus Christ. To him belong the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1: 3-4
His divine power has given us everything needed for life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very goodness. Thus he has given us, through these things, his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of lust, and may become participants of the divine nature.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

This is not of ourselves and it is not works righteousness. A non-believer accomplishes nothing and the only thing that separates a non-believer from a believer in terms of what each does is “God’s grace.” From start to finish all is by grace. From first believing to living righteously in the Spirit until we die, it is all by the power of God’s grace.

 

[Lazerlike42]

(continued from post #389)

It does not, and you’ll see why in a moment.

We agree: it is impossible for one to be justified by law-keeping.

But, is it impossible for one ***to think that they can be justified by law-keeping?***Philippians 3:4-10

4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.That is the point which Paul is beginning to destroy in Romans 2, and, by the end of the epistle, he has laid to rest the folly of salvation by works.

The assertion you made is that in Romans 2 St. Paul is demonstrating what would be necessary to be saved - following the law exactly. This is impossible, so he turns moves forward to demonstrate the need for faith in Christ.
However, now you say that St. Paul is only stating what people think is true.

Either way, St. Paul is stating something definitively. He is saying that those that do good will be rewarded for it, and those that do evil will receive punishment for it. This cannot simply be what people believe, but rather is being given as a fact. He doesn’t suggest that some people believe this erroneously, but says that this is true. In fact, he even quotes the Psams: “He will render to each man according to his works.” St. Paul is certainly not quoting the Psalms as part of a false understanding that some people have.

The common Protestant interpretation of this verse is that St. Paul is demonstrating the standards that must be followed to obtain salvation by the law, or in some other way apart from Christ. You are going even further than this by saying that he isn’t even establishing a standard, but he is presenting false ideas that people have. Nowhere, however, does he suggest that this is an erroneous idea. He even quotes a Psalm to support his point. What he says is true - God will render to each man according to his works, good to those who do good, evil to those who do evil.

This gets back to the point I made before. The common Protestant interpretation is flawed because the interpretation they are presenting is not of something true. No unjust person could be in any circumstances justified by his or her works. Moreover, St. Paul is writing to people who are already believers. These are people that are saints (1:7). Their faith is so great it is spoken of through the whole world (1:8)! These people already are in Christ - they have no need to be justified, if it is a binary one-time event.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Here ya go, sandusky, the three occasions for Abraham - they bring it up each time. In James - it states…that the scripture might be fulfilled which saith…Abraham believed God and it was counted to Him for righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

It is not saying that he was justified at that moment…

His faith…whether in Genesis 15:6 was the basis for his righteousness but he was not justified on three occasions here. Please note…this progressive justification of Abraham was not shown in the OT…it is just that the illustrations in the New Testament use different parts of the life of Abraham to show how he had faith which is the basis for justification. The only place in the OT that says - Abraham believed God and is was counted to him for righteousness was at the first promise of God and the subsequent belief of Abraham in that promise.

As Robert Sungenis points out in Not by Faith Alone, the Scriptures do not contain a single instance of the prhase “the Scripture was fulfilled” that takes on the meaning being suggested here. The phrase always refers to a prophetic fulfillment. By this, James is looking at Genesis 15:6 as not only a statement about what was occuring then, but also as a prophecy of the future. In Genesis 22, Abraham again believed God and it was credited to him with righteousness. In fact, this interpretation is even further proven by the immediate context. Verse 22 states that Abraham’s faith was active along with his works, and so in verse 23 James refers to this fulfillment in regards to Abraham’s faith, while in verse 24 he refers to his works. Notice the approach James takes:

2:21 - state the event
2:22 - state the two aspects to the event: faith and works
2:23 - comment on the faith aspect
2:24 - comment onthe works aspect

The fact that James is not merely asserting that Abraham’s faith from Genesis 15 was finally “shown” in Genesis 22 can also be seen in his reference to Rahab. He says that Rahab was justified “in the same way” as Abraham, indicating that the principle of each’s justification is the same. He says, “And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?” (25)

Note something very important here. James lists two works of Rahab’s, and two works which were in fact seperated by quite a period of time at that. James says that by these works, she was justified. But which one was it? Was it when she received the messangers, or when she let them out? And when did she actually have faith? James doesn’t even mention her faith - did she need faith?

The solution to these problems is that Rahab’s justification was increased hy her works, not gained in the first place. Her faith certainly mattered, but James takes that for granted - he is making the point about her increase in justification. If he isn’t, then it would imply a sort of Pelagianism where God had a certain level of works a person needed to reach, and Rahab was able to reach that level only by the two works combined. But this isn’t the case. Rahab’s justification was increased with her succesive works - in the same way that Abraham’s was.

What is the meaning of this scripture?

Hebrews 10:14 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The Greek reads "those that are being sanctified.

John 5:24 says we HAVE eternal life…

John 5:24 KJV 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 5:13 KJV 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

• Link

John 5:24 says a person has eternal life at present, but not that it can’t be cast away.

1 John 5 in particular needs to be read in cotnext. It says “I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life.” The “these things” refers to the preceeding material. Reading the entire epistle from front to back, it becomes very apparent that it is given as instruction for Christians to test whether or not they are abiding in Christ. It begins by exhorting believers to trust God and confess sins if they have them. It then gives a number of “if… then” statements about having life. It states after this that these things are written so believers may know they have eternal life. It is a test, of the same sort that Paul wrote about in 2 Corinthians 13:5.

 

[Zooey]

The key word in your post is discipline. You mistakenly assume that means atoning, or expiatory sufferings; it does not; it means discipline (cf Dt 8:5; 2 Sam 7:14; Pro 13:24; 19:18; 23:13ff).

Quite apart from anything else (& there is a lot of it), if I buy a dictionary which, when I consult it for the meaning of the word “discipline”, defines it as: 1. Discipline…
I am going to hunt down the publisher & author, and
http://bestsmileys.com/hitting/10.gif
http://bestsmileys.com/hitting/10.g...g/10.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/hitting/10.gif!!!
Sheesh!!

 

[Zooey]

A term used by James White.

http://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/2.gif
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

And me.

:whacky: :tsktsk:

 

[Linkowski]

Lazerlike42:

I have some issue with you last entry and I will take these one at a time…

Forst - dikaioo…the word for justified is…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

1. Justified in the case of James 2 is speaking of justified in the sense of the outward appearance. Remember, James in concerned with the “showing” of faith…

James 2:18 KJV 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

This has no reference to justification in the sense of the legal declaration that happens when one is born again. Justified is used in that sense in other areas of scripture.

Romans 5:1 NAS95 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

These are past tense and cannot be considered as processes but events.

1. You have not tackled this in light of Romans 7 either…

Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

When one is born again, he dies to the law and can no longer be imputed with sin…he is out from under the penalty of the law, eternal death. That is why you have scriptures like this…

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:33 NAS95 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
Romans 4:8 NAS95 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

1. You did not tackle the issue that the OT does not include the added language to show this stepwise justification.
2. In first John, you says that the evidences given to the reader are there to show them they are “abiding in Christ”. BUT…this is a half truth…the main phraseology that I see being used is “Whosoever is born of God”…this supports the Protestant case that a person who is truly saved will…hate sin, love, practice righteousness, overcome the world, love the brethren…

1 John 5:4 NAS95 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
1 John 3:9 NAS95 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

These are just examples, there are many others…but, certainly, the one born of God abides in Christ.

Link

 

[Randy_Carson]

Rejecting the Church to rejecting JESUS is a bit of a leap, dont ya think?

You know the scriptures; what do they say?
“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
Is rejection of the Church founded by Christ, which speaks for Christ, a rejection of him or not? HE says it is!
"He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” (Acts 9:4)
Saul was persecuting the early Church, but Jesus says, “Why do you persecute me?”

You may not be formal heretics, but you are material heretics. This is not intended as a put-down - just as a statement of fact. I wouldn’t be doing you any favors by telling you otherwise.

 

[Odell]

Forgive me, Odell, but I’m not following you.

You seem to be attaching some significance to a believer suffering for his sins; tell me what you mean by “we suffer for our sins,” and why that is significant to you, if indeed it is.

All I was asking you is why then do we still suffer for our sins when Jesus died for all our sins?

But yo give me no answer

see if we or suffering has a meaning to it even though Jesus died for those sins. Then why would are actions not have any meaning behind them as well

does the bible not say
Blessed are those who suffer
blessed are the peace makers

 

[guanophore]

Aren’t Catholics born-again Christians?

You have to admit it is not a term that is commonly found in Catholic conversation.