"Works" Salvation?

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Mannyfit75 said:
I call the website you posted filled with lies because I check that website that gives a false understanding of the Catholic Church. I am not calling you a liar but the website which you cite.
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I think William Webster has a fairly good grasp of Catholic theology. :rolleyes:

Care to show me his lies and deceptions?

Should I create a new thread called the Lies and Deceptions of William Webster?
 
kaycee said:
I think William Webster has a fairly good grasp of Catholic theology. :rolleyes:

Care to show me his lies and deceptions?

Should I create a new thread called the Lies and Deceptions of William Webster?
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Make another thread for it not in this forum. This thread is trailing off too many times.

and to answer your question. No he doesn’t. If he truly understanding Catholicism, he would convert and become Catholic but like I said if you want to make a thread on William Webster’s lies post another thread.
 
apophasis said:
In the previous post you said “suffer for our sins.” In Biblical language such suffering is expiatory. Do you believe God’s discipline toward the sons He acknowledges and loves is expiative?

Does a father discipline his child in order to make him “a son?”
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God disciplines those who are his sons read the passage again.

My question to you is did Jesus death on the cross mean that we will not be responsible for our actions? And if he does than why, we are washed by his blood?
apophasis said:
I don’t see justification as a “process” at all. The idea of being a “process” is strictly RC - not Biblical.
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Could you please answer Lazerlike then.

Lazerlike42
Also, Hebrews 11, in pointing to examples to follow of people with faith, points to Abraham as having faith back in Genesis 12. He was justified then, but St. Paul says he was justified in Genesis 15, and James points to Genesis 22. Even if we toss out James because of our disagreement, we nevertheless see that Abraham was in fact justified at least twice, proving at least one of the two ideas that either justification can be lost, or that it can increase.

Was Abraham justified in 12 15 or 22
 
James says

“I will demonstrate my faith to you by my works.” THAT’S WHAT CATHOLICS LIKE TO DO! But yet people for some reason have a problem with us doing what the bible clearly wants us to do.

sounds like a lie to me and we know who the father of all lies is.

well we are not going to bight at this apple.
 
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Tom:
Interesting idea, if I’m immediately forgiven and my sins are already “dealt with at the cross”, can I do what ever I want and automatically be forgiven? Sounds great I’ll start today, may I use your name when God asks me where I got such an outrageous idea? Let’s see, I really want to cheat on my wife… and I’m already forgiven, wow, I can see the potential here! Great theology! Thanks for the guidance.

Thanks for the advice, but I have read the thread and if you’d read the thread you’ll see I’ve made several posts.
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Forgive me, Tom; then having read the thread, how is that you ask that question?
 
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Milliardo:
I see many Muslims who do a lot of good than the average Christian does. I see a lot of so-called born again Christians who are lying, womanizing, gossiping leeches.
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Aren’t Catholics born-again Christians?
 
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Keikiolu:
Why,… the Magisterium, of course…!!

They say to listen to the appropriate authority concerning the appropriate area of study.

The SINGLE point of authority concerning Christian knowledge is the Magisterium of the (Catholic) Church.

Any other questions?
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Ah, yes…Sola Ecclesia; I forgot.
 
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guanophore:
I see that you are having trouble discerning which verses should be taken literally, and which figuratively. This is understandbible since you reject the guidance of the Church when interpreting the scriptures.

Jesus uses hyperbole often during His teaching. It is necessary to balance these teachings with the remainder of scripture, and not to take them out of context, or look at them in a vaccuum.
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I was pointing out the inconsistency in Catholic theology with respect to Jn 6, and other figurative biblical passages; that can be done with the respect to the Last Supper discourse
as well.
 
Odell said:
(Heb 12:5-11)
“You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons My son do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him for whom the Lord loves he disciplines he scourges every son he acknowledges.”
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The key word in your post is discipline. You mistakenly assume that means atoning, or expiatory sufferings; it does not; it means discipline (cf Dt 8:5; 2 Sam 7:14; Pro 13:24; 19:18; 23:13ff).
 
sandusky said:
I was pointing out the inconsistency in Catholic theology with respect to Jn 6, and other figurative biblical passages; that can be done with the respect to the Last Supper discourse
as well.
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There are threads on those already. Let us not derail this topic like we already have done already.
 
sandusky said:
And me.
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you an fallible human being. I rather trust the Church which God established.

The Church has been here 2,000 yrs longer than you have.

Plus its not sola ecclessia. Since the Church guided by the Holy Spirit to teach doctrines concerning faith and moral issues, which are part of the Deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles.

Jesus gave authority to the Apostles.

Luke 9:1

1 Then calling together the twelve apostles, he gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

To be honest, you reject Jesus.

Luke 10:16

Jesus addresses 72 other disciple and give them instructions.

He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

Since the Catholic Church dated back to the time of the Apostles, and Protestantism didn’t arrive until 1517-1545 A.D, which was form by the traditions of men. I take the Catholic Church over a man-made tradition of Protestantism.

Your CHURCH is not the Historical Christian Church. So you REJECT JESUS CHRIST!!!
 
kaycee said:
Rejecting the Church to rejecting JESUS is a bit of a leap, dont ya think?:confused:
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It is. You reject the doctrines of the Church you reject Jesus. When Paul persecuted the Church, Jesus Christ was persecuted.

So yes, rejecting the Catholic Church is rejecting Jesus Christ. The Church is know as the Mystical Body of Christ.

Though, I don’t blame Protestants from their beliefs to be true because they were raised that way. It’s not the fault of their own that they are mislead the the man-made tradition of Protestantism.
 
Odell said:
God disciplines those who are his sons read the passage again.

My question to you is did Jesus death on the cross mean that we will not be responsible for our actions? And if he does than why, we are washed by his blood?

Could you please answer Lazerlike then.

Lazerlike42
Also, Hebrews 11, in pointing to examples to follow of people with faith, points to Abraham as having faith back in Genesis 12. He was justified then, but St. Paul says he was justified in Genesis 15, and James points to Genesis 22. Even if we toss out James because of our disagreement, we nevertheless see that Abraham was in fact justified at least twice, proving at least one of the two ideas that either justification can be lost, or that it can increase.

Was Abraham justified in 12 15 or 22
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Here ya go, sandusky, the three occasions for Abraham - they bring it up each time. In James - it states…that the scripture might be fulfilled which saith…Abraham believed God and it was counted to Him for righteousness.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

It is not saying that he was justified at that moment…

His faith…whether in Genesis 15:6 was the basis for his righteousness but he was not justified on three occasions here. Please note…this progressive justification of Abraham was not shown in the OT…it is just that the illustrations in the New Testament use different parts of the life of Abraham to show how he had faith which is the basis for justification. The only place in the OT that says - Abraham believed God and is was counted to him for righteousness was at the first promise of God and the subsequent belief of Abraham in that promise.

What is the meaning of this scripture?

Hebrews 10:14 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And this passage…

John 13:8-10 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

This one below is used for Purgatory as if we are still in our sins (although born again)…

Revelation 21:27 KJV 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

You say we must go to Purgatory but there is never an explanation of who is in the Lamb’s book of life.

You must be “yet in your sins” if you believe this…

1 Corinthians 15:17 KJV 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

But…for those who believe, we are not in our sins, we are perfected, sanctified, justified, being sanctified (prgressively and practically) because of what Christ did for us.

Romans 7 says we are dead to the law…if we are dead to the law and in Christ, sin cannot be imputed to us (just as a dead person cannot be charged with a crime).

John 5:24 says we HAVE eternal life…

John 5:24 KJV 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 5:13 KJV 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
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Romans 8:30 KJV 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 6:11 KJV 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
 
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