"Works" Salvation?

[Milliardo]

Does it need to be a Catholic who baptizes me, or can I baptize myself?

I don’t know anyone who would baptize himself–AFAIK not even Protestants go as far as to say one can baptize himself.

And should I be submersed in the water?

Immersion is one way of baptism, though the Church sprinkles the water than a full immersion. I am not sure with Eastern rite Catholics; I would think that they do a full immersion.

 

[guanophore]

If justification includes santification wouldn’t this still be something God does for us?
Romans 8:30 “moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
Seems clear to me according to Romans 8:30 that God has accepted the responsibility for our justification, which according to you includes our santification.
God Bless,
Robert.

In part, Robert. While the path to holiness cannot be trod apart from God’s grace, we are participators and partakers. Each has an active role to cooperate with the grace that has been shed abraod in our hearts through faith.

 

[Robert902]

I don’t know anyone who would baptize himself–AFAIK not even Protestants go as far as to say one can baptize himself.

I’d still like to know if it is ok for me to baptize myself? Will I still go to heaven?

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Immersion is one way of baptism, though the Church sprinkles the water than a full immersion. I am not sure with Eastern rite Catholics; I would think that they do a full immersion.

 

[Milliardo]

I’d still like to know if it is ok for me to baptize myself? Will I still go to heaven?

Why would you want to baptize yourself in the first place?

 

[guanophore]

I’d still like to know if it is ok for me to baptize myself? Will I still go to heaven?

God Bless,
Robert

That is up to almighty God, of course. But, why would you not follow His directions, better? “Repent, and be baptized” (it is passive - done to someone by another.)

Jesus had His disciples baptise, and gave the Apostles this Commission, that they also go and baptise. What would keep you from being baptized by the successors of the apostles?

 

[dessert]

I’d still like to know if it is ok for me to baptize myself? Will I still go to heaven?

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Immersion is one way of baptism, though the Church sprinkles the water than a full immersion. I am not sure with Eastern rite Catholics; I would think that they do a full immersion.

260; Who Can Baptize?
The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and the priest. In the Latin Church the deacon also can baptize. In case of necessity any person can baptize provided he has the intention of doing what the Church does. This is done by pouring water on the head of the candidate while saying the Trinitarian formula for Baptism; "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."Compendium of CC

Go for it but you need someone to do it as he also will be a witness to tell the priest later.
You can pick a Christian saint name to recaive at Baptism
Let us know if you do Dessert

 

[Truthstalker]

If justification includes santification wouldn’t this still be something God does for us?
Romans 8:30 “moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
Seems clear to me according to Romans 8:30 that God has accepted the responsibility for our justification, which according to you includes our santification.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is true.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is ALL by His grace. It also includes our cooperation. We cooperate by His grace. God is the only one Who could do this. Before we choose to cooperate, God acts. In our cooperation, and underneath it, God acts. Through our cooperation, God acts.

Two key doctrines are often missed in these discussions: one is the providence of God, and the second is that we are created as a second order of creation, with will and volition. In the providence of God, all things are immediately caused by God. But being made in the image of God, we have free will. God works in our free will.

I think this is a cause of a lot of confusion. It is confusing. People want to simplify it. Photons sometimes act like particles, sometimes like waves. Monergism only presents part of the reality.

 

[Robert902]

It is ALL by His grace. It also includes our cooperation. We cooperate by His grace. God is the only one Who could do this. Before we choose to cooperate, God acts. In our cooperation, and underneath it, God acts. Through our cooperation, God acts.

So if we don’t cooperate, God can’t act? Scriprture say’s that I was chosen before the foundation of the world, and that no one can snatch me out of God’s hand. I think that (no one) includes myself. So to me it seems according to this passage, that my justification and santification can’t be snatched out of God’s hand. They are part and parcel.

Two key doctrines are often missed in these discussions: one is the providence of God, and the second is that we are created as a second order of creation, with will and volition. In the providence of God, all things are immediately caused by God. But being made in the image of God, we have free will. God works in our free will. Romans 8:30 Say’s that we were predestined by God. So you think that we are able to “undo” God’s work by our own volition?

I think this is a cause of a lot of confusion. It is confusing. People want to simplify it. Photons sometimes act like particles, sometimes like waves. Monergism only presents part of the reality.
Quantum mechanics involves sytems that are subject to the uncertainty principle. God is very predictable, as is illustrated in His word.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Robert902]

So if we don’t cooperate, God can’t act? Scriprture say’s that I was chosen before the foundation of the world, and that no one can snatch me out of God’s hand. I think that (no one) includes myself. So to me it seems according to this passage, that my justification and santification can’t be snatched out of God’s hand. They are part and parcel.

Two key doctrines are often missed in these discussions: one is the providence of God, and the second is that we are created as a second order of creation, with will and volition. In the providence of God, all things are immediately caused by God. But being made in the image of God, we have free will. God works in our free will.

Romans 8:30 Say’s that we were predestined by God. So you think that we are able to “undo” God’s work by our own volition?

I think this is a cause of a lot of confusion. It is confusing. People want to simplify it. Photons sometimes act like particles, sometimes like waves. Monergism only presents part of the reality.

Quantum mechanics involves sytems that are subject to the uncertainty principle. God is very predictable.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Robert902]

dessert:
260; Who Can Baptize?
The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and the priest. In the Latin Church the deacon also can baptize. In case of necessity any person can baptize provided he has the intention of doing what the Church does. This is done by pouring water on the head of the candidate while saying the Trinitarian formula for Baptism; "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."Compendium of CC

Go for it but you need someone to do it as he also will be a witness to tell the priest later.
You can pick a Christian saint name to recaive at Baptism
Let us know if you do Dessert

So it’s ok for me to baptize myself, but I’ll need a witness? And then that witness needs to go to a Catholic priest and tell him that he saw me baptize myself? Am I then given a certificate or something?

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Truthstalker]

Romans 8:30 Say’s that we were predestined by God. So you think that we are able to “undo” God’s work by our own volition?

I think this is a cause of a lot of confusion. It is confusing. People want to simplify it. Photons sometimes act like particles, sometimes like waves. Monergism only presents part of the reality.

Quantum mechanics involves sytems that are subject to the uncertainty principle. God is very predictable.

I recognize part of what I said, but I’m not sure of your point. The photon wave/particle example can only be carried to a point; past that and it falls apart. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t an example to a point. Something can be two things at the same time that seem to be contradictory.

God is very predictable? Interesting idea. Faithful, yes. Trustworthy, yes. Consistent? Yes. But He said we could not predict the day or hour of His return, and that His thoughts are above our thoughts, and His ways above our ways, and Paul uses words like unsearchable and untrackable to describe His ways. His mercies are new every morning and surprising. Predictable? Not a word I would use to describe God.

 

[Ignatius]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so **that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.” **

As a Catholic growing up, it was this kind of language that really made me believe that I have to earn salvation and favor with God. Do you not agree that this type of teaching fosters a “works” salvation (works being the means of our salvation?? Truly, the commandments were not given that we might obtain salvation through them but that the knowledge of sin would come by them. That is the first and foremost purpose of the law/commandments. Otherwise, I as a Christian, now love His law and live by it - out of love for Him and to please Him…not as a means of salvation.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Looking for comments.

The Catholic Church does not teach nor believe in ‘works salvation’. You were ill taught if you thought it did.

Peace be with you.

 

[dessert]

260; Who Can Baptize?
The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and the priest. In the Latin Church the deacon also can baptize. In case of necessity any person can baptize provided he has the intention of doing what the Church does. This is done by pouring water on the head of the candidate while saying the Trinitarian formula for Baptism; "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."Compendium of CC

Go for it but you need someone to do it as he also will be a witness to tell the priest later.
You can pick a Christian saint name to recaive at Baptism
Let us know if you do Dessert

So it’s ok for me to baptize myself, but I’ll need a witness? And then that witness needs to go to a Catholic priest and tell him that he saw me baptize myself? Am I then given a certificate or something?

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No you can not baptize yourself, but you can pretend to if you like!
Dessert

 

[dcdurel]

The Church says we are saved by grace. We first receive this grace at baptism, because we believe the teachings of Jesus on baptism as He handed down through His Church.

This grace takes away all sins, and at the same time it frees us to some extent from the inclination to sin.

In the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, we receive more of this grace that frees us from the inclination to sin.

This is why Jesus suffered and died, to free us from the slavery of sin.

We can reject this grace of salvation, and give in to mortal sin lose this grace and not repent and end up in hell. Thus, as Christians we must obey Jesus out of faith, because HE said we must, to enter heaven.

This is NOT the same as the works St. Paul talks about, because he was concerned with Christians who said that salvation by grace, through faith and obedience was NOT ENOUGH. They said that in addition to believing and obeying Jesus, Christians also had to follow the law of Moses. They knew Jesus never said Christians were under the Law of Moses, (circumcision, Jewish feast days), thus, in effect they were saying man had to do something in addition to what Jesus did. They were saying the grace of salvation was not enough. Man had to do works on HIS OWN, NOT THROUGH FAITH, NOT THROUGH GRACE, BUT ON HIS OWN. Those were the works of the Law ST. Paul was writing about. They were NOT DONE OUT OF FAITH IN JESUS, THUS THEY COULD NOT SAVE, THEY COULD NOT GIVE THE GRACE OF SALVATION.

The works St. James speaks of are works of obedience to Jesus. Since they are done out of faith in Jesus, by Christians who were already saved by grace, then they given additional grace. Thus he says we are saved by works and NOT by faith alone.

Thus we are further saved by works done in obedience to Jesus.

We are not saved by doing works apart from faith and obedience to Jesus. (Works of the Law)

Protestants don’t seem to be able to distinguish between the two different types of works spoken of in the bible.
Works of the Law of Moses cannot give the grace of salvation. This is Church teaching

Works done by Christians through faith in Jesus , in other words those done in obedience to Jesus, after we have been saved at baptism, CAN give more of the grace of salvation. Thus we ARE ALSO SAVED BY WORKS OF OBEDIENCE,** because they do give grace.**
This grace does save us. If we refuse to obey, and don’t repent, we will end up in hell, just as Jesus taught over and over.

 

[Robert902]

So it’s ok for me to baptize myself, but I’ll need a witness? And then that witness needs to go to a Catholic priest and tell him that he saw me baptize myself? Am I then given a certificate or something?

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No you can not baptize yourself, but you can pretend to if you like!
Dessert

This is very interesting. Suppose I’m on an airplane, and it crashes on a remote island and I am the sole survivor. I find a Bible among the rubble and get convicted that I am a sinner, and need a savior. The Bible that I am reading me tells me that I am saved by grace through faith. I have faith in what I have read, and believe that Jesus is God, and only through God’s grace I am forgiven. So according to what you have told me, unless someone comes along before I die of starvation to Baptize me, I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God. This is why Baptism can’t possibly be a prerequisite for salvation. It’s a gift.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things”.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Robert902]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so **that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.” **

As a Catholic growing up, it was this kind of language that really made me believe that I have to earn salvation and favor with God. Do you not agree that this type of teaching fosters a “works” salvation (works being the means of our salvation?? Truly, the commandments were not given that we might obtain salvation through them but that the knowledge of sin would come by them. That is the first and foremost purpose of the law/commandments. Otherwise, I as a Christian, now love His law and live by it - out of love for Him and to please Him…not as a means of salvation.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Looking for comments.

I couldn’t agree with you more. Catholic Grammar School and Catholic High School, and I got really burnt out ignoring God’s word, trying to “work” my way to heaven. I don’t know why it took me so long to figure out that salvation is a gift from God. “For you are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.” It’s a no brainer!

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[lak611]

This is very interesting. Suppose I’m on an airplane, and it crashes on a remote island and I am the sole survivor. I find a Bible among the rubble and get convicted that I am a sinner, and need a savior. The Bible that I am reading me tells me that I am saved by grace through faith. I have faith in what I have read, and believe that Jesus is God, and only through God’s grace I am forgiven. So according to what you have told me, unless someone comes along before I die of starvation to Baptize me, I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God. This is why Baptism can’t possibly be a prerequisite for salvation. It’s a gift.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things”.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If you had faith and desired to be baptized but could not, you could still be saved by “baptism of desire”. The ordinary means of the Sacrament is water baptism, but baptism of desire is possible if water baptism is not available to a person who has the intention of getting baptized.

 

[Bishopite]

No you can not baptize yourself, but you can pretend to if you like!

Dessert

What you don’t understand is baptism is the ordinary means of regenerating the soul, filling it with grace; sin isn’t just missing the mark but a lack of divine grace. There are extraordinary means of salvation that also happen like the thief on the cross who couldn’t exactly go and get baptized.
In Luke 12:48 where Jesus says…“Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more”
God only asks of us to be faithful to what we know to be true so if you were in the situation you described on an island and came to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and if you died there you would NOT be culpable of needing to be baptized since you weren’t either aware of that need and if you were then you weren’t physically able. Those who come to faith in Jesus who aren’t able to be baptized because of physical reasons or because they die are still saved through extraordinary means, for if they knew that following Jesus meant being baptized, they would surely go through with it.

Baptism puts sanctifying grace in our soul and is part of our initial justification, since justification is a process. Baptism puts us into the family of God as did circumcision but baptism does much more it washes away our sins also…

Col: 2:11-13 “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions;”

Also, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:19-21, John 3:5, Titus 3:5,

Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

 

[Janet_S]

I couldn’t agree with you more. Catholic Grammar School and Catholic High School, and I got really burnt out ignoring God’s word, trying to “work” my way to heaven. I don’t know why it took me so long to figure out that salvation is a gift from God. “For you are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.” It’s a no brainer!

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Then why not throw out the rest of your Bible except for this: “For you are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.”?

Why be bothered with these teachings of Jesus:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who **does **the will of my Father in heaven.” (Matt 8:21).

“Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, **take up **his cross, and follow me.” (Matt 16:24)

“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matt 19:17)

“Come, you who are are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you **cared **for me, in prison and you **visited **me.” (Matt 25:34-36)

 

[dessert]

No you can not baptize yourself, but you can pretend to if you like!
Dessert

This is very interesting. Suppose I’m on an airplane, and it crashes on a remote island and I am the sole survivor. I find a Bible among the rubble and get convicted that I am a sinner, and need a savior. The Bible that I am reading me tells me that I am saved by grace through faith. I have faith in what I have read, and believe that Jesus is God, and only through God’s grace I am forgiven. So according to what you have told me, unless someone comes along before I die of starvation to Baptize me, I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God. This is why Baptism can’t possibly be a prerequisite for salvation. It’s a gift.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things”.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You say it is a gift, have you accepted it yet or are you still thowing it into His Face and saying it is not neccesary.

This sounds like a Jonah experience.

So watch out for the big fish!

Although I believe the representation of Jonah in the whale is fortelling Jesus in the tomb for three days I may have this wrong?Sorry

What a nice story I could make out of this tale.

Let’s see Robert last seen in the ocean on his cruise ship but there came a storm and he was swept overboard, with his bookbag.
But when he opened it of course he didn’t have the book CASAWAY darn! but did have the bible because it was someone else’s bag not his.

Having never read the bible before so how could he know:shrug: where to turn but happens to open to…
you provide the verse____________
continues to read all the bible and considers building a fire with it but no… this is my salvation the book so I can’t yes no yes no
after a week and he is starving but does not burn it but has taken the words to his heart and soul.

So another week is past and thinks I better go eat at least a little seaweed get my greens.

He feels better now, and maybe it is actually sea water oops would not have lived that long but you can exist on water for about 30 days before systems shut down and then after your body goes into a point of no return.

Now he has believed and read and sees the part of Baptism but does not say nooooooo I don’t need that but Jesus shows him where Jesus baptized by John, Oh I missed that part so he goes over and because no one is around except maybe the angel that God has protected him with.
He lies down in the water and lets the hand of the ocean sweep over his head and brow and feels the fingers of God washing him in the forgivesness of the Holy Spirit and through the Salvation of the blood of the Son is imersed or just the head rinsed clean even if it is salt water as that is all available.

As he is lieing their he sees a plane over head and is therefore resued.

He immediately,after recovery in the hospital for a couple months, goes to a priest an tells him his story and they rejoice and confirm his testimony and his baptism is validated and the priest helps him to further be confirmed and become in communion with the Church.

But then maybe you would rather stay in the whale for three days suffering Dessert