"Works" Salvation?

[guanophore]

That is scattered! Peter denied (betrayed) Christ three times. Read the Gospels. Here is a list of synonyms for your edification. They can be found at dictionary.com

Synonyms for betrayed: abandon, be unfaithful, bluff, break faith, break promise, break trust, break with, commit treason, cross, deceive, deliver up*, delude, desert, double-cross, finger*, forsake, inform against, inform on, jilt, knife*, let down, mislead, sell, sell out, take in*, trick, turn in, turn informer

I am sorry that you have somehow been betrayed by the Catholic Church, mepatri. Perhaps you will be able to find some healing here on the forum? However, this thread is about the relationship of good works and salvation. If you wish to post about sexual abuse or personal betrayal by the church, you probably should go to the spirituality area.

Okay - you don’t judge. That’s a shame. You don’t judge that homosexuality in the church is wrong? You don’t judge that raping little boys is wrong? You don’t judge that covering up those actions is wrong? You don’t judge that protecting those priests that did such things is wrong?

Man. I feel sorry for you. If you can’t tell the difference between judging someone’s salvation (that is what the Bible is talking about when it says do not judge lest ye be judged), and descerning wrongdoing, you are lost.

Clearly you have a lot of strong feelings about these matters.
Hopefully someone here can help you with them.

 

[WynCatholic]

That is scattered! Peter denied (betrayed) Christ three times. Read the Gospels. Here is a list of synonyms for your edification. They can be found at dictionary.com

read Acts when Peter took the lead in finding another to fill Judas’s office. judas’ betrayal was primary. or do you think that the church should’ve started with the only ones who didn’t deny Jesus or flee? John and Mary, and the women who wept for Jesus on the way to calvary?
]

• Peter denied three times and repented, and brought the scattered disciples back together. fulfilling Jesus’ prayer for him and the disciples Luke 22:31-34.

It can be argued that Christ told all of the apostles that Satan was after each of them - not just Judas, whom he’d already taken. The plural pronoun umav shows that those words were not spoken to Peter alone.

it could be argued LOL
the plural was to all “sift you all” the singular was to Peter -pray for you[singular] … gather your brothers etc

Paul publically rebuked Peter on his less than accurate teachings.

no! it was on his less than consistent practice and bad example! even RCSproul would concur with this.

Why? Why does the Catholic Churh insist on Peter?

because the gospels and the scriptures say so. why isn’t that enough for you?

Yes - and James (as well as others) told us what to do with those wolves. Are you united with Him? Should not protecting and feeding the flock be of our utmost concern?

Concur

Maybe it’s that we are all only concerned with what we’ll get out of it, that we’re willing to turn away and just let things happen so that we don’t loose the church.

perhaps in some, but it is generally unproductive to speculate concerning another’s motivations or state of heart

Okay - you don’t judge. That’s a shame. You don’t judge that homosexuality in the church is wrong?

it is wrong

You don’t judge that raping little boys is wrong?

it is wrong even when protestant sunday school teachers and pastors do it.

You don’t judge that covering up those actions is wrong?

it is wrong. do I know all the facts? no should I be making railing accusations when told not to by Jude? no

You don’t judge that protecting those priests that did such things is wrong?

It is wrong to do so. should all who are even labled [libeled] with these broad brush accusations be tossed aside? of course not. truth and justice is important. and so is mercy and forgiveness to the repentant. and healing to the victims.

Man. I feel sorry for you. If you can’t tell the difference between judging someone’s salvation (that is what the Bible is talking about when it says do not judge lest ye be judged

That is what I was warning you about. let me quote myself

- you seem so filled with accusations and judging. be aware that by your own accusations you judge your own relation with God.

perhaps I misunderstood from your posts.It may be that you a never accused catholic christianity as being apostate and utterly false.

and descerning wrongdoing, you are lost.

discerning is one thing, making blanket accusations of guilt, fault, evil is quite another thing

The nature of the false teachers is clear. I’m not sure what you mean when you say "The predominant theme describes behaviour and attitudes that you advocate and exemplify"

rebellion, accusations and bitterness is what is described. I suggested that you search your own soul. I found that attitude in me when I encountered my attitudes towards the catholic church and its teaching.

It sounds like you’re just trying to be pedantic. Do you have a real point here?

just a suggestion for you to spend easter alone with the scriptures and read and meditate upon them. ; you are aware of other responses conserning what the Church has and does teach. you need no one to teach you. go, be alone and listen to the Spirit to lead you into all truth. no commentaries! grammers, and lexicons and concordances will be allowed. different translations will be allowed. call it your poustinia, your time alone with God. A retreat. Time alone with God is always a good thing. Please don’t reject it just 'cause a catholic suggests it.

How so? Blank statements aren’t very convincing

RCSproul isn’t a dispensationalist and therefore interprets scripture through a different lense than the phrase ‘end times’ reflects

Be blessed in Christ Jesus.
Wayne

 

[guanophore]

.

The adding to the faith the RCC talks about is not “goodness.” Nor is is knowlege, self-control or any of the other points listed. It’s sacremental works that have nothing to do with these things. It is not adding “goodness”, or “knowledge”, or “self-control” to add grace to yourself through receiving the sacrement of the Mass. Rather it’s doing something to get something. This is very different, and your example is not a good one.

So, you are saying that the sacraments are not given to us by Jesus? Your are saying that partaking of the sacraments is not a source of grace?

I have to admit, participating in sacraments is “doing something to get something”. You can’t very well get filled with grace if you refuse to get up and stand beneath the spout where the glory comes out! God does not violate the free will of His creatures. If they choose to forsake His grace, He will not force Himself. People have to take action to respond to His offer. If that is what you mean by “doing something to get something” I suppose it is true, but it seems like an awfully base way of describing it.

 

[Michael_Francis]

This thread has been pruned of off topic posts and comments and citations have been issued.

As per the Forum Rules I am directing that all posts remain on topic and cautioning that if that fails to happen further citations will be issued and/or this thread will be closed.
MF

 

[WynCatholic]

You need to read all of what I wrote in my posting. I did indicate from scripture that we are saved by faith that works by love which is very clear from scripture. Notice it is my faith working and also notice that my faith is not even of my own self but a gift given by God. Our works flow from our faith and show who we are. That is why you have scriptures like Matthew 12:33…The tree must be good and then the fruit will be good…you cannot separate genuine faith (which is the gift of God) from the works no more than you can separate the works of Christ from whom He really was…I see that alot here…people saying we are saved by our works - BUT - it must be remembered that our works are characteristic of who we are and show that we have faith - and by that faith we are justified…
]
God Be With Us…

You are soooo close!! You acknowledge graced works that are valued by God! We who are in Christ offer ourselves as living sacrifices to God that is our spiritual service of worship. we are also one with Christ who works in us to will and to do His good pleasure. We are also crucified with Christ. Gal2:20
But a faith that works and works that accompany salvation isn’t quite the fulness of catholic teaching. Graced works are not merely characteristic or evidence but more… that is the key to Catholic theology and Spirituality. it is also what is most often overlooked.

Wayne

 

[WynCatholic]

Lemme try a response again

Peter denied (betrayed) Christ three times. Read the Gospels. Here is a list of synonyms for your edification. They can be found at dictionary.com

]
read Acts when Peter took the lead in finding another to fill Judas’s office. judas’ betrayal was primary. or do you think that the church should’ve started with the only ones who didn’t deny Jesus or flee? John and Mary, and the women who wept for Jesus on the way to calvary? Bad works can be repented of, forgiveness given, and graced works offered up to God. Graced Works are that sweet smelling perfume to God.

It can be argued that Christ told all of the apostles that Satan was after each of them - not just Judas, whom he’d already taken. The plural pronoun umav shows that those words were not spoken to Peter alone.

‘it could be argued’ LOL
the plural was to all “sift you all” the singular was to Peter -pray for you[singular] … gather your brothers etc notice the works response required in Jesus’ Prayer

Paul publically rebuked Peter on his less than accurate teachings. Why? Why does the Catholic Churh insist on Peter?

no! it was on his less than consistent practice and bad example! His bad works! which human beings - fallen human beings- are capable of doing. Those wrong actions of Peter needed to be repented of.
even RCSproul would concur with this.
The Church 'insists on peter because it is true. the gospels and the scriptures say so and holding to truth can be a graced work!

Yes - and James (as well as others) told us what to do with those wolves. Are you united with Him? Should not protecting and feeding the flock be of our utmost concern?
(Edited By Moderator)

yes to both questions. protecting the flock can be a graced work if it is done in Christ’s grace. Your connecting ‘union with Christ’ and the need for the undershepherds to protect and feed the flock of God is wonderful. Often the shepherds can forget their duty and run away.

-The nature of the false teachers is clear. I’m not sure what you mean when you say "The predominant theme describes behaviour and attitudes that you advocate and exemplify"

rebellion, accusations and bitterness is what is described. I found that attitude in me when I encountered my attitudes towards the Catholic Church and its teaching.
Easter was/is a wonderful time for me to deepen my walk with God. I spent much of the months leading up to Easter 2004 listening to the scriptures , spending time alone with the scriptures and reading and meditating upon them.
I had no commentaries! I had no grammers, and lexicons and concordances. I had different translations. I had time alone with God. A retreat. Time alone with God is always a good thing. That time alone with God is grace working. It is the fruit of a relationship with God that keeps on saving. The Godly life and Godly choices that I do come from that grace having fruit in my life. All of the life of the Christian is a call to do works that are valuable to God because they are done through Christ’s life flowing through them!

How so? Blank statements aren’t very convincing

RCSproul isn’t a dispensationalist and therefore interprets scripture through a different theological lense than the phrase ‘end times’ reflects
Be blessed in Christ Jesus.
Wayne

 

[distracted]

I could make Matthew 18:34-35 equally difficult for you…if he was indeed forgiven and then saddled with the same debt until all that was due uno the king was paid, this would mean that this man would never pay it off. If we took every detail of this parable and made it apply to salvation/the Christian life, we would conclude the following…

He was forgievn a debt that could not be paid…then he was unforgiving one time…then was saddled with that same debt until all that was due to the king was paid…this would mean that once we were unforgiving to one person, we would love our salvation forever. The proper way to look at this is the following…

When a person truly receives the forgiveness of God and understands the manifold grace of God which is absolutely unfathomable, he cannot help but be forgiving to others once that is truly understood. If the person is unforgiving and continually this was, this may be an indication that he never received forgiveness at all because, obviously, that person does not understand the forgiveness of God. There is a problem with the way that you are interpreting this and I hope you can see that. I do not disagree with anyone, however that this is a difficult passage.

Matthew 25:31 - as we know - true faith - which is a gift from God and not our own works through love…those who have been born of God are characterized by being loving. This is an evidence of salvation.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

A loving disposition is characteristic of one that has been born of God…again, once a person is changed/ born again by the grace of God, they are a new creature…

1 Corinthians 5:13 KJV 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The works that we do are by the grace of God and were prepared for us…

Ephesians 2:10 KJV 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

John 14:12 KJV 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

You cannot separate true saving faith that is given by God (not devlish vain faith) from the works that they accomplish.

Matthew 12:33 KJV 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

The tree (person) is made good at salvation and, therefore, the fruit is good. And, yes, faith without works is dead.

Philippians 2:12:

The Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to fulfillment or completion.” It cannot refer to salvation by works (Rom. 3:21–24; Eph. 2:8, 9), but it does refer to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of sanctification (Rom. 6:19; cf. 1 Cor. 9:24–27; 15:58; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 4:1; Col. 3:1–17; Heb. 6:10, 11; 12:1, 2; 2 Pet. 1:5–11). Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Is. 66:1, 2).

May God Show Us Truth…

If i am understanding u correctly (only read 1/2 the post due 2 time constraints…) you believe in OSAS.
You say i am misinterpreting scripture and yet you twist it to your own ends… The scripture passage CLEARLY states that the man in Matt 18:23 is not only forgiven but Totally forgiven… yet you say maybe he was not?? Protestants are always doing that - changing the meaning, even the very words of the Bible to suit their purposes… One should not read the Bible in order to find proof to back up his already-held beliefs… One should search the scriptures for truth and accept it - even when… especially when it is painful to do so… @ least that’s what level-headed people do…
I would be very careful about changing the clear meaning of scripture…
As the Mass readings on Palm Sunday say “Have you no fear of God?”

 

[distracted]

How can you look to Karl Keating, or John Martignoni, or Patrick Madrid, as do hundreds of thousands of Catholics do each day? None of these men are infallible - but they teach.

No one is saying that Sproul creates doctrine.

His teachings are aurhority based on the Bible. Unlike the Catholic Church, which centers its authority on the Magisterium.

No - his teachings are based on the Bible - which he references time and again. That would be in contrast to your teachers - the Pope included, when they constantly reference their own declarations, or the Catechism.

He teaches from the Bible. It’s simple. Also, I do not “rely” on Sproul, as you would rely on the Pope, or Bishops, or priests for your salvation. I can learn a lot from Sproul and teachers like him, but ultimately I have to be responsible for my own salvation. I can look to no man to be a representitive of Christ for me, except Christ Himself.

Yes - Peter. How ironic that the RCC bases the whole of its faith on Peter - the very one who betrayed Christ. (Edited By Moderator)

Jesus chose Peter because he loved Him so much (and/or other reasons). How dare you criticize St. Peter, who died a horrible death, nearly identical to the one Jesus endured… You have betrayed Jesus a thousand times worse than he because of your sins… (and so have i)… Would YOU be willing to die on a cross upside-down for Jesus - or die for him AT ALL? When you have gone through that, then you can criticize St. Peter for his (temporary) betrayal… yet, i know that if you were that kind of saintly person, you would never think to do so…
God bless…

 

[distracted]

That is scattered! Peter denied (betrayed) Christ three times. Read the Gospels. Here is a list of synonyms for your edification. They can be found at dictionary.com

Synonyms for betrayed: abandon, be unfaithful, bluff, break faith, break promise, break trust, break with, commit treason, cross, deceive, deliver up*, delude, desert, double-cross, finger*, forsake, inform against, inform on, jilt, knife*, let down, mislead, sell, sell out, take in*, trick, turn in, turn informer

It can be argued that Christ told all of the apostles that Satan was after each of them - not just Judas, whom he’d already taken. The plural pronoun umav shows that those words were not spoken to Peter alone.

Paul publically rebuked Peter on his less than accurate teachings. Why? Why does the Catholic Churh insist on Peter? It’s because they misunderstand.

Yes - and James (as well as others) told us what to do with those wolves. Are you united with Him? Should not protecting and feeding the flock be of our utmost concern? (Edited By Moderator)

(Edited By Moderator)
-The nature of the false teachers is clear. I’m not sure what you mean when you say "The predominant theme describes behaviour and attitudes that you advocate and exemplify"

It sounds like you’re just trying to be pedantic. (Edited By Moderator)

How so? Blank statements aren’t very convincing.

How many times have you betrayed Jesus through your sins??
Also, remember the story of the prodigal son - the Father held a big party for him!!
Maybe Jesus could only have (really) chosen a repentant sinner to head his Church because only those can truly understand the sins and weaknesses of others… I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to fit inot that last category… You seem to be downing St. Peter, of all people…
I was raised knowing Christ… (though not as well as i do now…). I went away from the Church, not because i wanted to but, well, who knows… i was young, etc… Then i went into the world and did worldly things… I fell and fell till i hit bottom…
I now appreciate my Catholic faith far more now than ever before. I have somethign to compare it to… You can’t fully see the value of Christianity until you have seen the sad results of living without it…
Same with Peter… I believed He loved Jesus far more after he was forgiven than before…
What is that story in the Bible about the woman who had been forgiven much and therefore, loved all the more?? God bless you in your search…

 

[Randy_Carson]

It can be argued that Christ told all of the apostles that Satan was after each of them - not just Judas, whom he’d already taken. The plural pronoun umav shows that those words were not spoken to Peter alone.

Here is the passage you reference:

“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift youa] as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” (Luke 22:31-32)

Notice that little “a”? It references the NIV footnote which declares that the word is plural. You were right…Jesus told the disciples that Satan wanted to sift all of them.

The next sentence is the key one, however, because every “you” and “your” thereafter is singular. This means that Jesus prayed for Peter alone and told Peter alone to strengthen the other Apostles after they all abandoned Jesus upon His arrest.

Okay…let’s review…

Who walked on the water? Peter.
Who said, “You have the words of eternal life” in John 6? Peter.
Who received revelation from the Father that Jesus was the Christ? Peter.
Who is the rock? Peter.
Who has the keys? Peter.
Who did Jesus pray for to strengthen the others? Peter.
Who did Jesus tell to feed his sheep in John 21? Peter.

Peter…the leader of the Church…the first pope…I see it…can you?

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Janet_S]

How many times have you betrayed Jesus through your sins??
Also, remember the story of the prodigal son - the Father held a big party for him!!
Maybe Jesus could only have (really) chosen a repentant sinner to head his Church because only those can truly understand the sins and weaknesses of others… I’m sorry, but you don’t seem to fit inot that last category… You seem to be downing St. Peter, of all people…
I was raised knowing Christ… (though not as well as i do now…). I went away from the Church, not because i wanted to but, well, who knows… i was young, etc… Then i went into the world and did worldly things… I fell and fell till i hit bottom…
I now appreciate my Catholic faith far more now than ever before. I have somethign to compare it to… You can’t fully see the value of Christianity until you have seen the sad results of living without it…
Same with Peter… I believed He loved Jesus far more after he was forgiven than before…
What is that story in the Bible about the woman who had been forgiven much and therefore, loved all the more?? God bless you in your search…

From Heretics by GK Chesterton: “When Christ at a symbolic moment was establishing His great society, He chose for its corner-stone neither the brilliant Paul nor the mystic John, but a shuffler, a snob a coward — in a word, a man. And upon this rock He has built His Church, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. All the empires and the kingdoms have failed, because of this inherent and continual weakness, that they were founded by strong men and upon strong men. But this one thing, the historic Christian Church, was founded on a weak man, and for that reason it is indestructible. For no chain is stronger than its weakest link.”

ccel.org/ccel/chesterton/heretics.iv_1.html

 

[Robert902]

Calvinist predestination, which limits the grace of justification to the elect, makes God a liar.

Ezekiel 18:32

32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Ezekiel 33:11

11"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live."

God Bless,
Michael

‘Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to His good will.’ Eph 1:4-5

I just don’t see any way around this. It doesn’t matter that it might not agree with the way we think things ought to be. It’s according to His good will.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 ‘Test all things, hold fast what is good.’
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[WynCatholic]

‘Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to His good will.’ Eph 1:4-5

I just don’t see any way around this. It doesn’t matter that it might not agree with the way we think things ought to be. It’s according to His good will.

I was infralaparian and regarded supralapsarians as scary. which might you be?
either way, i think both gutted the idea of a free will to obey or not and turned it into a concept of free agency.
Freedom, free will and the sovereignty and imutability of God must take into account the nature of the image of God in man, man as a living soul, the nature of the fall and the ‘curse’, what it is to be ‘in Christ’ ,what it means to be partakeer in the life of God, and what it means to be like him for we shall see him as He is. these concepts were referenced constantly in the NT writings. and apparently was to have an enormous impact upon the lives of the NT Cristians, for Paul based so much of his ‘therefores’ upon these issues.
This all of course also impacts on the value of our works in our new covenant in Christ.

 

[contramundum7]

(cont’d)

BUT - election shows that “Once Saved, Always Saved”…We HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ if we hold our confidence steadfast to the end…Perseverance is shown here as an evidence and not a condition - we must persevere and we will…those who do not hold fast are shown to have believed in vain…

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

More Scriptures on election…

Acts 13:48 NAS95 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

John 13:17-19 NAS95 17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. 18 "I** do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME**.’ 19 "From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He.

Judas was not chosen - Peter and the rest were…

John 15:16 NAS95 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; **and the Lord opened her heart to respond **to the things spoken by Paul.

Acts 18:27 NAS95 27 And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,

Yes - we do not know who - but, once the elect come to faith - they are saved and will be saved…

Mark 13:22 NAS95 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

They cannot fall away.

In another post, you mentioned about Matt 18:23, saying my interpretation means that w/ one act of unforgiveness, we are condemned… The servant in that story who refused to forgive, refused without relenting… The only unforgivable sin is not to repent…

 

[mikeledes]

Mepatri, what will ultimately happen to a Christian who is unproductive, who is “blind and nearsighted”, having “forgotten that his sins were cleansed?” The Bible is clear on that:

John 15:1-2,

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

The unproductive “branch” will be cut off and thrown into the fire. You cannot be a “branch in Christ” unless you have been genuinely justified. Otherwise, you could not be incorporated into Christ (“the Vine”). If you were not genuinely saved, then you were never a “branch” to begin with. How can you be “taken away” from something you were never a part of?

Enjoyment of eternal life in the world to come is promised to those of the justified who perserve in doing good to the end:

Romans 2:6-7

6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature ]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

God Bless,
Michael

It does not matter how many times I post these verses. Protestants almost always seem to evade them. The argument that we are saved by a “faith that works” is practically the same thing the Catholic Church teaches. We are saved by a faith that works through love. And what is love?

2 John 6

**6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. **

Matthew 19:16-17

**16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt life, keep the commandments.**

1 Corinthians 7:19

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Granted, genuine faith should produce a life of holiness and good works. But salvation is promised to those who persevere to the end. Therefore, a person may have genuine faith now and live a holy life that reflects that faith, but that is not a guarantee that, in the future, that person will continue living a life of faith and holiness.

Romans 11:20-22

**20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. **

Ezekiel 33:13, 18

**13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. **

**18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[OneForTruth]

When the Bible says below that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law, what is he saying?

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The above is saying we are justified by faith totally separate from anything in the law, correct? This includes the moral law too, correct? 10 Commandments? Ceremonial law? All or part of?

Just looking for some feedback.

Thanks.

 

[Milliardo]

The above is saying we are justified by faith totally separate from anything in the law, correct? This includes the moral law too, correct? 10 Commandments? Ceremonial law? All or part of?

Just looking for some feedback.

Thanks.

I don’t think so, at least not the Ten Commandments and certainly not moral law. Paul never equated works of the law to exactly mean the Ten Commandments and/or moral law.

 

[mikeledes]

When the Bible says below that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law, what is he saying?

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The above is saying we are justified by faith totally separate from anything in the law, correct? This includes the moral law too, correct? 10 Commandments? Ceremonial law? All or part of?

Just looking for some feedback.

Thanks.

What he is saying is that we do not enter into a saving relationship with God on the basis of any works of the law. In other words, we are not made righteous before God on the basis of any work that we do. We are freely made righteous by His grace.

However, once we are made righteous before God, we receive a call, an obligation, to live in righteousness. That’s where James 2 comes in. We are a new creation, created to do good works. Once we become a child of God, we are given the ability to do those things that please God and live a life of holiness. The love of God is poured into our hearts, which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, and inspires us to do good. If, after being justified and receiving the Holy Spirit, we resist this impulse to do good, we will not enjoy the ultimate goal of our spiritual journey, eternal life in the age to come.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I also want to add that Paul is trying to emphasize that we are not entitled to God’s grace or mercy. The Jews claimed that since they were the biological descendants of Abraham, circumcised, and observed the Law of Moses, that they were entitled to God’s mercy. In other words, God was obligated to save them. Paul preached against this idea. If biological descent from Abraham, circumcision, or observance of the Law of Moses earned God’s forgiveness and paid for their sins, then the death of Christ would be meaningless. We are transfered from a state of ungodliness to righteousness purely on the basis of God’s grace and mercy, courtesy of the Blood of Christ

The works that Catholics talk about are works done by those who already have been justified and have had their sins forgiven. Once we have been made righteous, we have an obligation to remain righteous, not turning away from the righteousness we have received.

Ezekiel 18:26

**26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. **

We turn away from rigteousness by chosing not to live righteously (i.e. sin). Sin is, in essence, a violation of the moral law of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments) and includes sins of omission (i.e. not doing the good you are supposed to do). That is why Jesus says that if we wish to enter life, we must keep the commandments. Moreover, refusing to do works of charity is a rejection of that call to love your neighbor as yourself. When we willfully turn away from the call to righteousness we received when we first became righteous before God, we will lose that gift of righteosuness and hence our “ticket” to a happy afterlife.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

When the Bible says below that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law, what is he saying?

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The above is saying we are justified by faith totally separate from anything in the law, correct? This includes the moral law too, correct? 10 Commandments? Ceremonial law? All or part of?

Just looking for some feedback.

Thanks.

To avoid duplication, I would advise you to go back to the start of this thread, and read from the beginning. You will find these issues addressed in detail. Jesus came to fulfil the law, not to abolish it. He taught that we should obey Him, and obey the commandments. Catholics know what to obey by following the teachings of the church.