World's climate warming faster than feared, scientists say

[qui_est_ce]

[snip}

Several years ago I was planning to give up talking about AGW, since the** anti-environmentalist and AGW skeptic

s are so well entrenched there is absolutely nothing I can do or say to convince them AGW is real, dangerous, or that we need to mitigate. They don’t even want to follow JPII or BXVI admonition to mitigate AGW, so why would they listen to me. Then that Sunday at Mass the reading came that if you see your brother sinning, you must speak to him about it, otherwise the sin falls back on you.

So here I am endlessly pounding my head against a solid brick wall until the day I die.

Most definitely must not broad brush AGW skeptics as anti-environmentalists.

Many of my acquaintances (and I) are AGW skeptics, but they (and I) do their best to recycle and reuse. They combine errands to save on gas usage. They have set-back thermostats. They have compost piles and vegetable gardens. We even used clothe diapers on our kids. Some used diaper services, I washed them in my own machine and hung them in the sun to dry.

I am happy your are satisfied with your volt. I and most of my friends simply can’t afford it. I drive a used Chevrolet (got it as a repo from the local credit union).

Yet, people who can afford such expensive cars as the Volt are subsidized by dollars shelled out by taxpayers like me who can’t afford them.

Bill1940:

Finally, the association of an alarmist AGW position with certain political and business interests should lead us to be circumspect, if not suspicious.

lynnvinc:

Not sure what you mean. I’m just a simple Carmelite Catholic minding my own business, doing whatever I can in my daily life over the past 25 years to mitigate AGW. However, I also have to speak up on this issue of AGW.

Obama has vowed to increase energy costs. Obama has “invested” our tax dollars into solar energy companies of his political cronies. Companies that have gone bankrupt on the taxpayers dime.

His energy policies are hurting the poor and the middle class and benefiting the “haves.”

 

[Bill1940]

Lynn, “Yet the assertion that 97% of scientists believe that climate change is a man-made, urgent problem is a fiction. The so-called consensus comes from a handful of surveys and abstract-counting exercises that have been contradicted by more reliable research”. This is from a Wall Street Journal article which can be accessed here: online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579578462813553136

I will say that you are well read on at least one side of the argument but then so am I, and others, on the other side of it. I have yet to hear a good explanation of the pre-industrial era warming periods such as from 900 to 1300 AD, as well as other periods previously. Think of Greenland I imagine we could argue ad infinitum about the issue but it’s July and too hot to get worked up over anything. Be Well and God bless you.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Lynn, “Yet the assertion that 97% of scientists believe that climate change is a man-made, urgent problem is a fiction. The so-called consensus comes from a handful of surveys and abstract-counting exercises that have been contradicted by more reliable research”. This is from a Wall Street Journal article which can be accessed here: online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579578462813553136

I will say that you are well read on at least one side of the argument but then so am I, and others, on the other side of it. I have yet to hear a good explanation of the pre-industrial era warming periods such as from 900 to 1300 AD, as well as other periods previously. Think of Greenland I imagine we could argue ad infinitum about the issue but it’s July and too hot to get worked up over anything. Be Well and God bless you.

Here in St. Louis, it’s not so hot, for the second year in a row. In July, we can usually count on temperatures in the upper 90’s with a humidity of well over 60%. Most of July this year, I have had my windows open at night, it’s been so beautiful. Upper 50’s overnight and lower '80’s in the day. It’s too cold to go to the pool!

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Lynn, “Yet the assertion that 97% of scientists believe that climate change is a man-made, urgent problem is a fiction. The so-called consensus comes from a handful of surveys and abstract-counting exercises that have been contradicted by more reliable research”. This is from a Wall Street Journal article which can be accessed here: online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579578462813553136

You should look at your reference more carefully. It is not an “article” of news. It is an opinion piece - and is clearly labelled as such. Get your facts straight before you start passing off opinion pieces as if they were objective news reports.

P.S. Co-author of the opinion piece, Joseph Bast, is from the Heartland Institute - a clearly objective source for such a piece, eh?

 

[qui_est_ce]

You should look at your reference more carefully. It is not an “article” of news. It is an opinion piece - and is clearly labelled as such. Get your facts straight before you start passing off opinion pieces as if they were objective news reports.

P.S. Co-author of the opinion piece, Joseph Bast, is from the Heartland Institute - a clearly objective source for such a piece, eh?

I can’t read the article because I don’t have a subscription. Could you copy and paste onto the thread?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Yet, people who can afford such expensive cars as the Volt are subsidized by dollars shelled out by taxpayers like me who can’t afford them.
Obama has vowed to increase energy costs. Obama has “invested” our tax dollars into solar energy companies of his political cronies. Companies that have gone bankrupt on the taxpayers dime.

His energy policies are hurting the poor and the middle class and benefiting the “haves.”

Please try to maintain the distinction between energy policy issues like this and the strictly science question of what is happening to the climate. Otherwise we end up with really nonsensical arguments like “Gee, these climate change mitigation measures really hurt the poor, therefore climate change must not be happening.”

For example, I accept global warming as a scientific fact, yet I do not believe one single cent should be used to subsidize electric cars or solar cell manufacturers.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I can’t read the article because I don’t have a subscription. Could you copy and paste onto the thread?

I don’t have a subscription either. But you can see the authors and the “opinion” heading on the teaser page even without a subscription. Yes, I would like to read the whole article too, but not enough to subscribe. I don’t have any doubt, however, that the “article” says just what Bill1940 says it does.

 

[Erich]

It is a really great car. One auto magazine stated that in creating the Chevy Volt the Detroit engineers in cheap suits outdid the Germans.

US News ranks the Volt – whose MSRP ranges from $34,185 to $34,185 and whose gas engine is rated at 40 MPG hwy – as #7 in “upscale midsize cars.”

For that kind of money (if I had it) I could get a base BMW 3-Series (36 MPG hwy) or Audi A4 (32 MPG hwy). Both of these vehicles are ranked higher than the Volt (for that matter so is the BMW 5-Series, but it’s also more expensive) – and both have more space in the rear seat and the trunk.

Then again, the total amount of state and federal subsidies for each Chevy Volt sold is as much as $256,824 per vehicle according to a fiscal analysis by Michigan’s Mackinac Center for Public Policy – so if the goal was to design/build a car that is way more expensive than anything coming from Germany or Japan, then the Volt wins hands down. %between%

 

[lynnvinc]

US News ranks the Volt – whose MSRP ranges from $34,185 to $34,185 and whose gas engine is rated at 40 MPG hwy – as #7 in “upscale midsize cars.”

With the tax rebate, that comes to about $27,500. Expensive, yes, but since we had always bought old cars for the 43 years of our marriage (except one new car in 1976) AND we had lived within 1 or 2 miles of work, so as to leave some resources for future generations, we were in a position to afford it.

When you figure the Volt’s low running costs – saving us $1000 per year over the other car my husband had considered (a Ford Taurus) – in 10 years that could bring the Volt’s effective cost way down.

For that kind of money (if I had it) I could get a base BMW 3-Series (36 MPG hwy) or Audi A4 (32 MPG hwy). Both of these vehicles are ranked higher than the Volt (for that matter so is the BMW 5-Series, but it’s also more expensive) – and both have more space in the rear seat and the trunk.

If you’re going for luxury or status, then go for it. Each to his own. We were going for reducing our harm to life on earth – from AGW harms to local pollution.

However, if you need to seat more than 2 in the back and you only have one car, the Volt is not for you. We also have a second car, a mini-van that seats 7, but we only drive it about 1000 miles a year and use when we need a 2nd car and for hauling things (tho the Volt can also haul quite a bit). So if we were in need of seating more than 4 people, we could use the van.

It’s just great that we also are very happy with our Volt and consider it a luxury car, since it’s the best and most fancy car we’ve ever owned and we don’t have experience with real luxury cars with which to compare it.

If people have trouble with us getting the tax rebate, then they will probably also have trouble with me getting education from public schools and universities. I’m not going to give the money back for these, but I will continue to do my best to be a good citizen and help society in whatever ways I can.

 

[BravoComp]

I wonder when people will wake up and see that global warming & climate change aren’t terms to be associated with conspiracy theory. What more proof do we need?

 

[qui_est_ce]

It’s just great that we also are very happy with our Volt and **consider it a luxury car, **since it’s the best and most fancy car we’ve ever owned and we don’t have experience with real luxury cars with which to compare it.

And people who can’t afford Volts are paying for you to have a luxury car. How is that right?

If people have trouble with us getting the tax rebate, then they will probably also have trouble with me getting education from public schools and universities.

No, I don’t equate education with subsidizing people who can afford luxury cars.

lynnvinc:

I’m not going to give the money back for these, but I will continue to do my best to be a good citizen and help society in whatever ways I can

And so will I, by voting out people who use my hard earned money to subsidize luxury cars for people who can afford them.

 

[Hans_W]

Here in St. Louis, it’s not so hot, for the second year in a row. In July, we can usually count on temperatures in the upper 90’s with a humidity of well over 60%. Most of July this year, I have had my windows open at night, it’s been so beautiful. Upper 50’s overnight and lower '80’s in the day. It’s too cold to go to the pool!

Are you serious?? We are talking about the whole globe, not your back garden.

 

[Hans_W]

Lynn, “Yet the assertion that 97% of scientists believe that climate change is a man-made, urgent problem is a fiction. The so-called consensus comes from a handful of surveys and abstract-counting exercises that have been contradicted by more reliable research”. This is from a Wall Street Journal article which can be accessed here: online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303480304579578462813553136

I will say that you are well read on at least one side of the argument but then so am I, and others, on the other side of it. I have yet to hear a good explanation of the pre-industrial era warming periods such as from 900 to 1300 AD, as well as other periods previously. Think of Greenland I imagine we could argue ad infinitum about the issue but it’s July and too hot to get worked up over anything. Be Well and God bless you.

We have addressed all these points in previous posts. It puts a strain on your time to answer them again and again.

BTW there is another parallel thread on “climate alarmist - the biggest fraud”, or something similar. Can’t we combine those threads. People can’t afford to read both.

Concerning climate scientists (real specialists in their field, not engineers, medical doctors and other academics), attached is a fairly comprehensive survey:

 

[estesbob]

I wonder when people will wake up and see that global warming & climate change aren’t terms to be associated with conspiracy theory. What more proof do we need?

Some warming would help

 

[donsnow]

Are you serious?? We are talking about the whole globe, not your back garden.

Good evening, Hans,

Good to see you posting again.

Remember that link you gave to me, about the article/debate about Antarctic melting and ice growth? Could you put that link on a PM to me? I can’t remember where it is on the thread.
I would like to read it, now.

(Although I care about the whole globe, my back yard is where I feel climate change. I think there will always be climate change. I think global warming comes and goes.)

God loves you,
Don

 

[Ridgerunner]

We have addressed all these points in previous posts. It puts a strain on your time to answer them again and again.

BTW there is another parallel thread on “climate alarmist - the biggest fraud”, or something similar. Can’t we combine those threads. People can’t afford to read both.

Concerning climate scientists (real specialists in their field, not engineers, medical doctors and other academics), attached is a fairly comprehensive survey:

Since there’s really no such thing as a “climate scientist”, the graph is meaningless. People who style themselves “climate scientists” are always something else. And some who purport to be, really are engineers. Some are geologists, some are physicists. Some are dendrologists. Some are questionably scientists at all. Read their degrees, and you’ll see.

 

[Ridgerunner]

With the tax rebate, that comes to about $27,500. Expensive, yes, but since we had always bought old cars for the 43 years of our marriage (except one new car in 1976) AND we had lived within 1 or 2 miles of work, so as to leave some resources for future generations, we were in a position to afford it.

If, as Erich says, the subsidy for a Volt is $265,000.00 how in the world does that leave resources for future generations? Seems to me it leaves them with a lot of debt.

 

[lynnvinc]

I wonder when people will wake up and see that global warming & climate change aren’t terms to be associated with conspiracy theory. What more proof do we need?

There will never be enough proof for the skeptics. They are well entrenched. If someone present really good evidence, then they say it is bogus and made-up by 1000s of evil scientists in a vast conspiracy. There is absolutely nothing that will ever convince them otherwise.

It is really a very sad situation for our children and their children and descendants, who will be bearing the brunt of it.

 

[lynnvinc]

If, as Erich says, the subsidy for a Volt is $265,000.00 how in the world does that leave resources for future generations? Seems to me it leaves them with a lot of debt.

There are medicines with much greater government subsidies than that. New tech is always very expensive on that first few pills, etc. The articles he cited were from 2011 when only the first 6,000 Volts had sold. If you include the development costs and gov funds used to help that development each of those initial 6,000 Volts of course would cost quite a bit. A lot of tech is developed during wartime at very great expense…later put to civilian use, but we don’t cry about that terrible gov expense hidden in that civilian use.

And we have much greater gov expenditures in horrible and foolish ways. Our medical system is such that we would rather spend $500,000 on a person with diabetes in the last few months of her life cut short (and her other leg amputated), than to spent less than one-tenth of that on good early and preventative care that would have allow her to live 10 or more years longer with both her legs in good health (see Mama Might Be Better Off Dead: The Failure of Health Care in Urban America).

We’d rather spend millions and billions on prison expenditures, than on helping children avoid a life of crime. The list goes on.

Those are some things that are really sick with our society, not gov spending to help introduce great technology that will help us reduce our harms and killing of people – by helping us reduce local, regional, and global pollution.

I’m currently involved in a 33 underground acre benzene plume issue (from decades of oil and gas leakages) in a nearby town, where residents are dying of leukemia. Extraction of oil destroys subsistence bases (including drinking water supplies) of peoples in the Amazon, Nigeria, and elsewhere. There are cancer alleys in the oil refinery areas. Pollution from driving automobiles harms people and causes birth defects and miscarriages. Some NOx pollution from autos turns into nitric acid, killing lakes and harming soil, trees, property (such as monuments), and people’s lungs. And the CO2 becomes a GHG that contributes to climate change, which contributes to or exacerbates heat deaths, droughts, floods, storm & hurricane intensity, frequency, soil & plant desiccation harm (harming food crops), wildfires, land loss (from sea rise), spread of diseases, species loss (including harm to seafood), glacier & snowpack melt now threatening floods, later great harm to irrigation agriculture that depends on the yearly snowpack/glacial cycle. NONE of these are included in the costs of the ICE cars that directly or indirectly cause them.

And the auto industry and gov should have NEVER killed the EV a decade ago. The gov should have been helping in the development of EVs for the past 40 years. That is what is the terrible shame of the situation. Not that the gov has helped in its development over the past 6 years – which I see as lame and too little, too late.

 

[vz71]

There are medicines with much greater government subsidies than that. New tech is always very expensive on that first few pills, etc.

That others are guilty is not an excuse for guilt.

“Everyone else is doing it” is rarely going to be accepted as a reason.

So, can the actual question be answered?