World's climate warming faster than feared, scientists say

  • Thread starter Thread starter gilliam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Good afternoon, estesbob,

What does environment have to do with capitalism? Why not examine socialism (both capitalism’s and freedom’s nemesis) for it’s impact on the environment? In my opinion, any active economic and political systems should be examined for their impact on environment.

I didn’t even read your link because it think if’s off topic.

God loves you,
Don
 
Mann, among others, is still hiding his data. Fought a court battle to keep doing it. Doesn’t bode well for the MMGW hypothesis if he refuses to share how he reached his conclusions. Hansen was caught with his hand in the cookie jar for changing the NOAA raw data to fit his conclusions. East Anglia imbroglio a few years back was about this hiding or obfuscating the data as well. If these people really believe their case, why not let ALL their data out there. Why not make them fully explain why they accepted some data points, but not others? The MMGW theory lost a lot of credibility with me just on that alone.
You can discount Mann and Hansen and any ten other researchers if you want to. It is not as if they are the only ones claiming MMGW is true. You also have the majority of climate scientists independent of these saying the same thing.
 
You can discount Mann and Hansen and any ten other researchers if you want to. It is not as if they are the only ones claiming MMGW is true. You also have the majority of climate scientists independent of these saying the same thing.
Once again we must keep in mind one does not get a degree in “climate science”. the definition of “climate scientist” is any scientist who believes in man made global warming
 
You can discount Mann and Hansen and any ten other researchers if you want to. It is not as if they are the only ones claiming MMGW is true. You also have the majority of climate scientists independent of these saying the same thing.
Most of them are relying on Mann’s and Hansen’s data points.
 
One can assume the existence of a baseline of what the climate would have been without man, which specifically knowing what the baseline is. The theory is about the relative difference man’s activities make - not about what the absolute end result will be.
“One can assume…”???
 
You have to understand that while the UN established the IPCC, the reports come from 1000s of scientists around the world, who are not getting paid to do that work. Most of the studies on which those reports are based are either from universities or gov institutes, and the studies were mainly funded by gov grants, which do not have agenda to sway public opinion one way or the other, but let the facts “chips” fall where they may. Here is a link to the IPCC reports (which are based on many 1000s of scientific studies and comprising 1000s of pages): ipcc.ch/

This is unlike Heartland, Exxon, and the Koch bros (and their orgs) who are specifically funding people (most of them NOT climate scientists) to create misinformation about AGW with the express purpose to deceiving a gullible public that perhaps wants the wool pulled over its eyes bec they don’t want to take responsibility for AGW.

As the Bible says, be as shrewd as serpents and gentle as doves, and as the US bishops say prudence requires that we mitigate AGW.

I don’t know why people here hate the UN so much. It is a good institution. Perhaps the world governments that compose it have not given it much “teeth” to bring about world peace, end conflict, and bring economic uplift for the poor, but it does very good work in its efforts to do these. If anything I imagine it is underfunded and could do a lot more good with more funding.

And this is even if people may take issue with some of its policies, such as re family planning, etc. Even the Vatican works with the UN to express our Catholic perspective and greatly applauds the humanitarian works the UN does.
An organization that puts dictatorships like Cuba on its human rights commission, and Iran on a commission for the rights of women, cannot be trusted to be honest in any other way.
 
An organization that puts dictatorships like Cuba on its human rights commission, and Iran on a commission for the rights of women, cannot be trusted to be honest in any other way.
Cuba is just one of the 53 countries on the UN Human Rights Council with representatives allocated from each region of the world. It is hard to fill out a roster with such wide representation without including at least some dictatorships. If we followed your advice, the Human Rights Council would have only the US and its best friends. That would just feed into the accusation by our adversaries that the UN is just a tool of the US. If we want to have a credible Human Rights Council that much of the world will listen to, then it must represent much of the world, not just the parts of it that we like.

As for Iran, the UN Commission on the Status of Women invites all countries, even those that are not members of the UN, to participate. In 2013 there were reports from over 120 countries. Iran was one of them, and here is that submission. I don’t know on what basis you could credibly refuse to hear from Iran when you are hearing from 120 other countries.
 
Cuba is just one of the 53 countries on the UN Human Rights Council with representatives allocated from each region of the world. It is hard to fill out a roster with such wide representation without including at least some dictatorships. If we followed your advice, the Human Rights Council would have only the US and its best friends. That would just feed into the accusation by our adversaries that the UN is just a tool of the US. If we want to have a credible Human Rights Council that much of the world will listen to, then it must represent much of the world, not just the parts of it that we like.

As for Iran, the UN Commission on the Status of Women invites all countries, even those that are not members of the UN, to participate. In 2013 there were reports from over 120 countries. Iran was one of them, and here is that submission. I don’t know on what basis you could credibly refuse to hear from Iran when you are hearing from 120 other countries.
What you’re saying is that international politics drives the UN into subjectivism. Possibly that’s inevitable in an international organization that admits the worst along with the best. But it also requires any thinking person to realize that subjectivism drives the organization, and that therefore it cannot be taken seriously in most of its actions and pronouncements.

And many UN members, likely the great majority, have a financial stake in an international “cap and trade” system, which interest is the reason the IPCC exists at all. Dictatorships can, under “cap and trade” suppress development in their own countries, which doesn’t seem to bother them anyway, and reap financial rewards for themselves from the developed countries by doing it.
 
What you’re saying is that international politics drives the UN into subjectivism.
No, I’m not saying that. But it is the nature of debate that you must listen to ideas you believe are objectively wrong. Listening to them does not make you a subjectivist. But to decide you will only listen to those who agree with you is to cut off all debate.
And many UN members, likely the great majority, have a financial stake in an international “cap and trade” system, which interest is the reason the IPCC exists at all. Dictatorships can, under “cap and trade” suppress development in their own countries, which doesn’t seem to bother them anyway, and reap financial rewards for themselves from the developed countries by doing it.
That is a strawman argument for me since I don’t support cap and trade.
 
No, I’m not saying that. But it is the nature of debate that you must listen to ideas you believe are objectively wrong. Listening to them does not make you a subjectivist. But to decide you will only listen to those who agree with you is to cut off all debate.

That is a strawman argument for me since I don’t support cap and trade.
12 missiles were found “hidden” in a classroom in a UN school in the Gaza Strip. I wouldn’t trust the UN as far as I could throw them.

They have two purposes :
  1. Get as money as they can from the US
  2. Condemn Israel as often a s possible
The Global Warming alarmism falls under purpose 1.
 
12 missiles were found “hidden” in a classroom in a UN school in the Gaza Strip. I wouldn’t trust the UN as far as I could throw them.

They have two purposes :
  1. Get as money as they can from the US
  2. Condemn Israel as often a s possible
The Global Warming alarmism falls under purpose 1.
Before you start making more claims, I think you should acknowledge your mistake in posting 1251.
 
No, I’m not saying that. But it is the nature of debate that you must listen to ideas you believe are objectively wrong. Listening to them does not make you a subjectivist. But to decide you will only listen to those who agree with you is to cut off all debate.

That is a strawman argument for me since I don’t support cap and trade.
First point. Since we know what the “ideas” of the likes of Cuba on human rights and of Iran on womens’ rights already, why should we feel any obligation to listen to them? I did not say listening to them makes one a subjectivist; only that the “moral” declarations of the UN are untrustworthy because they are based on subjectivism. The truth is objective.

Second point. This thread is about global warming, in which IPCC is being used as an authority. I was pointing out that, as a UN-funded organization, and since UN pushing of “cap and trade” has financial gain as its goal, IPCC should not be regarded as an unbiased source.
 
First point. Since we know what the “ideas” of the likes of Cuba on human rights and of Iran on womens’ rights already…
That is certainly debatable.
Second point. This thread is about global warming, in which IPCC is being used as an authority. I was pointing out that, as a UN-funded organization, and since UN pushing of “cap and trade” has financial gain as its goal, IPCC should not be regarded as an unbiased source.
You do not have to rely solely on the IPCC. Much of the research they present was gathered by scientists with no financial ties to the IPCC. The IPCC is not paying the salaries of all those doing research in climate science.
 
That is certainly debatable.

You do not have to rely solely on the IPCC. Much of the research they present was gathered by scientists with no financial ties to the IPCC. The IPCC is not paying the salaries of all those doing research in climate science.
Did any of these scientists predict a 17 year “pause” in global warming?

Is they any way to falsify global warming in the eyes of the true believers? How many years on no warming does it take? 20? 30? 100? a million?

The real loser in all this are scientists. It will take decades for people to regain their trust in scientists-if then
 
Did any of these scientists predict a 17 year “pause” in global warming?
The pause is only a problem if you don’t understand what global warming is.
Is they any way to falsify global warming in the eyes of the true believers? How many years on no warming does it take? 20? 30? 100? a million?
No, it is much easier than that to falsify global warming, and you can do it right away. No need to wait another minute. All you have to do is find an alternate explanation for where all the heat from the sun goes that is still compatible with conservation of energy and other well-established principles of science. Or, if you are feeling really brave, try to find evidence that one of those well-established principles of science is actually false. But don’t be too discouraged. It has happened before. The Einsteinian revolution in science did unseat some principles that people, even scientists, thought were well established, such as the universal nature of time and distance measurements.
The real loser in all this are scientists. It will take decades for people to regain their trust in scientists-if then
Science is not based on trust. Implicit in every scientific claim is the invitation to look for yourself and prove it wrong if you can. The claims and research methods are, in principle, accessible to all. But I suppose if you don’t have the time to travel to Greenland yourself to make a temperature measurement, or measure the thickness of the ice sheet, then I guess you have to trust. But in principle you could check these things for yourself.
 
The pause is only a problem if you don’t understand what global warming is.

No, it is much easier than that to falsify global warming, and you can do it right away. No need to wait another minute. All you have to do is find an alternate explanation for where all the heat from the sun goes that is still compatible with conservation of energy and other well-established principles of science. Or, if you are feeling really brave, try to find evidence that one of those well-established principles of science is actually false. But don’t be too discouraged. It has happened before. The Einsteinian revolution in science did unseat some principles that people, even scientists, thought were well established, such as the universal nature of time and distance measurements.

Science is not based on trust. Implicit in every scientific claim is the invitation to look for yourself and prove it wrong if you can. The claims and research methods are, in principle, accessible to all. But I suppose if you don’t have the time to travel to Greenland yourself to make a temperature measurement, or measure the thickness of the ice sheet, then I guess you have to trust. But in principle you could check these things for yourself.
In short not none of them predicted a 17 year pause but we have to believe in global warming anyway until someone can explain why the earth is warming other than from an increase in Co2 even though the earth is not warming. Makes perfect sense to me:shrug:
 
The pause is only a problem if you don’t understand what global warming is.

No, it is much easier than that to falsify global warming, and you can do it right away. No need to wait another minute. All you have to do is find an alternate explanation for where all the heat from the sun goes that is still compatible with conservation of energy and other well-established principles of science. Or, if you are feeling really brave, try to find evidence that one of those well-established principles of science is actually false. But don’t be too discouraged. It has happened before. The Einsteinian revolution in science did unseat some principles that people, even scientists, thought were well established, such as the universal nature of time and distance measurements.

Science is not based on trust. Implicit in every scientific claim is the invitation to look for yourself and prove it wrong if you can. The claims and research methods are, in principle, accessible to all. But I suppose if you don’t have the time to travel to Greenland yourself to make a temperature measurement, or measure the thickness of the ice sheet, then I guess you have to trust. But in principle you could check these things for yourself.
Almost anyone’s knowledge about this is derivative, even that of people who write articles about it. Almost nobody goes to Greenland, for instance, to measure the thickness of the ice sheet, or can.

But it’s true you can find competing sources for just about every sub-issue of MMGW, as well as the theory itself.

Re the Greenland ice sheets for example: Here are two articles claiming the ice sheets have been thickening inland. Both attribute that to cycles in the North Atlantic Oscillation. Interestingly, one attributes a thinning cycle occurring in the 1920s and 1930s as greater than the last thinning cycle that ran from about 1995 to 2005.

biokurs.de/treibhaus/180CO2/bayreuth/Summary-bayreuth.pdf
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2006GL026510/abstract

As I have said before, the whole MMGW thing is a debate, with sub-debates in the premises. It is also a very big political issue; a fact that undoubtedly affects research funding and the positions held by the political parties and their followers who do or do not support suppression of energy usage.

Since it really is a debate pervaded with differing sources,and since artificially causing, e.g, utility bills to “skyrocket” will indisputably cause human hardship, I do not find the “pro” side sufficiently persuasive to cause me to endorse human hardship. On the contrary, the seeming willingness of the “pro” side to cause suffering makes me wonder about the rationality of the whole position.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top