Worship of Mary?

[SaintPatrick333]

The words i am quoting below are not my own, but are from a source that i have been reluctant to read from because of how inflammatory they are. I am posting these words that are from a prominent protestant evangelical because the issue of Mary has been something that I have never been able to understand nor come to a conclusion about. Also I had trusted this minister and heard many a christian reference him before as a trustworthy resource. I was raised baptist but my bestfriend is roman catholic. He and I have tried talking many times about this issue, but it is difficult.

“… there are millions all over the world who worship Mary. Millions of images of her in every imaginable form are scattered throughout the world. They’re obviously not able to even be counted…millions of them in every form and every location, churches, cathedrals, shrines, houses, streets, cars, wallets, everywhere are images, pictures, representations of Mary. Millions upon millions of people every day pray to her. They pray to her to save them. They pray to her to protect them. They pray to her to help them, to comfort them, to rescue them, to bring them to heaven and she has never heard one of those prayers ever. By any honest definition, this is idolatry, this is a severe violation of the first commandment, to have no other gods but the true and living God, is no different than pagan idolatry which God totally condemns as an abomination. So let’s just get that clear at the beginning.”

If anyone can shed some light on this or just give me there thoughts i would appreciate it.

My Godfather said it best when he instructed a protestant minister who raised the same argument at a movie theater (of all places). If Mary was good enough for Christ, who is anyone else to say different? The Hail Mary prayer itself, mostly, comes directly from Scriptures. I wouldn’t expect that particular minister to understand however since he’s probably never even read a full bible and instead clings to his cherry picked watered down kjv which is missing entire books of Scripture. This is the place to be to learn about Catholicism and I commend you for asking Catholics what Catholics believe, instead of being like too many others who simply let their pastors individual interpretation of scriptures and the world become their own interpretation of scriptures and the world.

 

[ahs]

The Catholic church is comprised of both Sacred Scripture (the bible) and Tradition (man made laws), thus the Catholic religion is a mix of both God’s infallible Word and man made tradition. To know this is to understand why Catholics pray to Mary… To understand Mary is to understand the makeup of the Catholic church, which is again, founded on God’s Word and man’s tradition passed down throughout the ages.

This is false. [T]radition is the Sacred/Apostolic Tradition handed down from the Apostles, who received it from Christ. The written Word (Scriptures) stems from this. There are some [t]raditions…customs, but these are not part of Doctrine…they are a simple expression of life in time (what we wear, the songs we sing, etc…).

However, nowhere in the bible does it state that we ought to pray to Mary, no matter how exalted her status within the church…

As was just mentioned above, the first part of the “Hail Mary” prayer comes directly from Scripture, while the second part is asking her to pray for us. Nothing about it is at all contradictory to God’s Word.

While no one questions the authenticity of Mary as the mother of God, God Himself gave us Jesus His Son to lead us out of the darkness into the light. Mary will always be the mother of God, but Jesus is the one and only true Savior of the world.

Jesus Rocks

Amen!

 

[JRKH]

Obviously the quote in the OP has many errors in it.
However there may be contained therein a seed of truth…a relatively minor distinction that may be part of the cause for miscommunication…

• a few days ago on another thread entitled “Can we worship something without knowing it”…That thread jumped off from the passage about not being able to serve two masters - God and mammon.

A poster indicated that they believed that worship had to be a conscious act which did not seem to fit with that passage…In exploring that idea I did a bit of research into the Greek terms and uncovered this: (copied from the other thread)…
+++++++++++++++
Upon review of the Greek used in reference to “worship”-ing God it would appear that this would be a conscious action (ritual etc.)
So - in this sense it appears that you are quite correct in saying that it would be a conscious act.

So I suppose then the question should be raised…how does “worship” relate to things like “serve” - as in " you cannot serve God and mammon…and “where your treasure is, so is your heart”

In Mt 4:10 and Luke 4:8 where Jesus answers satan, He quotes Deuteronomy 6:13 when He says…

Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'

This is interesting in that both words (worship and serve) are used.
The Greek used here for worship (Proskuneo) speaks mainly to outward acts of reverence. Thus - as you say - something consciously done.
That said…The OT reference (Deut 6:13) gives the Hebrew word, " `abad" which means “to work, serve” (from Strongs concordance). The Septuagint uses the term “Latreuo” which likewise means to serve.
Of course it is interesting that in Mt 4:10 and Luke 4:8 where Christ is responding to satan, a different word is used (Proskuneo) but this appears to be due to the specific request made by satan…That Jesus “fall down and worship”…a physical, ritualistic act.

In any event…It appears that, in the passage under discussion from Mt 6, the idea of worshiping and serving - from the Hebrew understandings - is pretty much the same thing…Does my analysis seem correct to you?
++++++++++++++++++++++

Now the part of this that is germane here is in the bolded section above…
It would seem that if we are to be accused of violating the 1st commandment that it would need to be shown that we “serve” Mary in an inappropriate way…

That said - the Protestant, looking at how we act in front of statues etc - and reading the Greek “Proskuneo” - outward signs - translated as worship - feels perfectly justified in saying that we “proskuneo” = worship the statues or the painting or Mary or whatever…

So as said earlier - it is a fairly minor point and those who study such matters SHOULD be able to easily resolve the matter by an honest look at what the Church actually teaches…Unfortunately some just don’t take the time and wind up building error upon error.

Peace
James

 

[pablope]

The words i am quoting below are not my own, but are from a source that i have been reluctant to read from because of how inflammatory they are. I am posting these words that are from a prominent protestant evangelical because the issue of Mary has been something that I have never been able to understand nor come to a conclusion about. Also I had trusted this minister and heard many a christian reference him before as a trustworthy resource. I was raised baptist but my bestfriend is roman catholic. He and I have tried talking many times about this issue, but it is difficult.

"…

If anyone can shed some light on this or just give me there thoughts i would appreciate it.

It is borne out of ignorance…and a misunderstanding of the word “prayer” and its meaning for Catholics and for protestants.

Prayer, to a catholic, means our personal time with God, or to ask for intercession from the Saints…in this case, Mary. To pray…in its original meaning, is to plea, to ask.

Prayer to a Catholic does not mean worship…but for a protestant, prayer is equated with worship. Catholics worship during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

As the protestant reformation grew, and the original leaders where replaced…their successors, in order not to look too Catholic, disregarded the Mass as the form of worship…and without the mass, what is left is prayer as the form of worship…for most protestants.

 

[jpink1019]

To quote a movie, “The man is the head, but the woman is the neck and the neck can turn the head any way she likes.”

Catholics ask Mary to pray for us. We ask for her intercession to the all-mighty, ever-living God. He chose her to have his son, Jesus. She is his bride.

Here is something different.
I have never heard of Mary as the bride of Christ.
I have always heard of the “Church” (the people) as the bride of Christ.

 

[snarflemike]

Here is something different.
I have never heard of Mary as the bride of Christ.
I have always heard of the “Church” (the people) as the bride of Christ.

The poster was pretty clearly referring to God the Father. But in any case, Mary as the bride of God the Father is not official teaching AFAIK, nor is it a common analogy in my experience.

 

[ahs]

Here is something different.
I have never heard of Mary as the bride of Christ.
I have always heard of the “Church” (the people) as the bride of Christ.

The quote you are replying to is not accurate and does not represent the Catholic understanding. When something like this arrises, it’s best to refer to the Cathechism to understand what the Church really reaches, or read a couple of the informative tracts on this website, or read what the others have posted in this thread.

 

[JRKH]

The poster was pretty clearly referring to God the Father. But in any case, Mary as the bride of God the Father is not official teaching AFAIK, nor is it a common analogy in my experience.

Actually I have heard it said that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit…

Peace
James

 

[jpink1019]

Fully agree with the Church’s position on Mary. That being said, I think we would be foolish not to recognize that there are many Catholics who wrongly cross the line into superstition and perhaps idolatry when it comes to Mary (witness the 1000’s of people who showed up to venerate a tree in NJ that supposedly had a weeping image of Mary on it). Unfortunately the sensationalism of this foolishness is proving to be a stumbling block to our Protestant bretheren. No we do not worship Mary, but it’s not hard to see how they get the impression.

You have hit the nail right on the head.
I realize there is more than just what i see but when growing up i would know which neighbors were catholic when I’d see a statue of Mary in their front yard.
The emphasis placed on her is sometimes distracting for me when from the beginning all
i ever thought my focus needed to be was on Jesus.
So you might imagine the struggle when talking to a close friend of mine who is catholic and we are both on fire about our faiths.

I will try to dig deeper into what the catholic church ACTUALLY says about her.
Many of the links provided will, I’m sure, be helpful in some way.

 

[rfournier103]

The words i am quoting below are not my own, but are from a source that i have been reluctant to read from because of how inflammatory they are. I am posting these words that are from a prominent protestant evangelical because the issue of Mary has been something that I have never been able to understand nor come to a conclusion about. Also I had trusted this minister and heard many a christian reference him before as a trustworthy resource. I was raised baptist but my bestfriend is roman catholic. He and I have tried talking many times about this issue, but it is difficult.

“… there are millions all over the world who worship Mary. Millions of images of her in every imaginable form are scattered throughout the world. They’re obviously not able to even be counted…millions of them in every form and every location, churches, cathedrals, shrines, houses, streets, cars, wallets, everywhere are images, pictures, representations of Mary. Millions upon millions of people every day pray to her. They pray to her to save them. They pray to her to protect them. They pray to her to help them, to comfort them, to rescue them, to bring them to heaven and she has never heard one of those prayers ever. By any honest definition, this is idolatry, this is a severe violation of the first commandment, to have no other gods but the true and living God, is no different than pagan idolatry which God totally condemns as an abomination. So let’s just get that clear at the beginning.”

If anyone can shed some light on this or just give me there thoughts i would appreciate it.

Let me offer my thoughts… The lady or gentleman you quoted has no idea about the meaning of the prayers offered to Mary. Has he or she ever prayed for anyone else? Has anyone else ever prayed for him or her? How is it different if we ask Mary to pray for us, or Joe the barber or Mike the pizza guy? In the “Hail Mary”, Catholics say “…Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners…”. The key line being pray FOR us. Pray to God for us.

Personally, I think a statue of Mary in the garden or yard is way prettier than a garden gnome

Does this person you quoted from also rail against Mount Rushmore, the Lincoln Memorial, the Rocky statue in Philadelphia, or dead presidents on our money (except Franklin and Hamilton. They were never president)?

Sounds to me like he’s someone who just hates Catholics, and gets off on spewing his venom.

Luke 1:48 …Yes, from now onwards all generations will call me (Mary) blessed…

 

[snarflemike]

Actually I have heard it said that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit…

Yes, I have heard that phrase also. Of course then one must ask, in what ways does it make sense to speak of Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit?

 

[LilyM]

Yes, I have heard that phrase also. Of course then one must ask, in what ways does it make sense to speak of Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit?

Above all, it makes sense in the fact that the child conceived in Mary’s womb had a Father. That child was also, as we say in the Creed, conceived of the Holy Spirit. So Who exactly is the child’s Divine Parent? Think about it.

And what is the usual relationship of a child’s Father to its Mother? (At least prior to our permissive modern age). Think about that too.

 

[jlhargus]

mark

 

[Gamera]

… as Marian devotions are still going strong in certain parts of the world.

Count this house!

 

[Gamera]

“Pray” and “worship” are two different words for a reason. “Pray” means only to communicate. Some old legal documents still say that the affiant “prays” the court for the relief sought. That isn’t worship, it’s only communication. Yes, Catholics pray to Mary, and no, Catholics do not worship Mary.

 

[Church_Militant]

You have hit the nail right on the head.
I realize there is more than just what i see but when growing up i would know which neighbors were catholic when I’d see a statue of Mary in their front yard.
The emphasis placed on her is sometimes distracting for me when from the beginning all
i ever thought my focus needed to be was on Jesus.
So you might imagine the struggle when talking to a close friend of mine who is catholic and we are both on fire about our faiths.

I will try to dig deeper into what the catholic church ACTUALLY says about her.
Many of the links provided will, I’m sure, be helpful in some way.

Here’s one very good source I hope you’ll take advantage of. From the Catholic Home Study Service.

   http://www.amm.org/chss/images/chss9.gif              **CHRIST'S MOTHER AND OURS **         
  **This course explains what the Bible says about Mary, what the Church teaches,        Mary's apparitions, how Mary relates to us in our daily lives, prayer and        liturgy relating to Mary, the meaning of the Rosary, Marian sacramentals,        and more. It will help you understand Catholic devotion to Mary and explain        it to others.**

 

[TimothyH]

I wish Catholics would re-take control of the conversation and not be ashamed to admint that we do worship Mary. I certianly do.

The word “Worship” now has a single, monolithic meaning, which it did not have in the past. Catholics have let non-Catholics define the word worship to one single meaning devoid of any subtlety or nuance.

The classical definition of worship was to give to someone what was their due, or theirs by right. So one could worship God by giving him the adoration which was his alone by right (latria) and one could also worship Mary by giving her the honor and veneration which was her’s by right (hype-rdulia).

Even if people didn’t use the words latria and dulia or understand what they meant, they were not afraid to say that they offered both God and Mary worship, but that their worship of God was different from their worship of Mary.

I is not incorrect for a Catholic to say that we worship Mary. We have simply let non-Catholics control the conversation and define the meaning of the words used in that conversation.

-Tim-

 

[kompaz]

Assume that you are a tourist who visits a foreign land.

You notice that local inhabitans have statues of an entity called Bu’gundu, they wear images of Bu’gundu on their necks, and they kneel before the statues of Bu’gundu and pray. The word Bu’gundu can be heard in the prayers.

Then, you meet an anthropologist who explains to you that in local theology, Bu’gundu is actually a lesser deity, who has no power by itself; so technically, it is actually not a deity at all. All Bu’gundu does is relay your prayer requests to U’ruma, which is the all-powerful deity. You immediately ask why the locals don’t pay to U’ruma directly and skip the middleman? Well, the anthropologist explains, the locals believe that U’ruma has a special relationship with Bu’gundu, so if Bu’gundu presents your case, then you have more chance for a favorable resolution than if you addressed U’ruma himself.

Would you conclude that the locals worship a deity named Bu’gundu and why?

 

[snarflemike]

You immediately ask why the locals don’t pay to U’ruma directly and skip the middleman?

I have to ask, have you ever been to a Catholic Mass, the corporate worship of the Church? Have you ever attended, or even read, the Liturgy of the Hours, known as the Prayer of the Church?

I once counted the references to God (all wordings) in the Ordinary (unchanging part) of the Mass. There were over 100. There is 1 reference to Mary, who is referenced along with all the angels and saints and all those present (“I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God”).

The “reality” you suggest regarding Catholic worship is simply untrue. It is a myth born of either ignorance or malice.

 

[ahs]

Assume that you are a tourist who visits a foreign land.

You notice that local inhabitans have statues of an entity called Bu’gundu, they wear images of Bu’gundu on their necks, and they kneel before the statues of Bu’gundu and pray. The word Bu’gundu can be heard in the prayers.

Then, you meet an anthropologist who explains to you that in local theology, Bu’gundu is actually a lesser deity, who has no power by itself; so technically, it is actually not a deity at all. All Bu’gundu does is relay your prayer requests to U’ruma, which is the all-powerful deity. You immediately ask why the locals don’t pay to U’ruma directly and skip the middleman? Well, the anthropologist explains, the locals believe that U’ruma has a special relationship with Bu’gundu, so if Bu’gundu presents your case, then you have more chance for a favorable resolution than if you addressed U’ruma himself.

Would you conclude that the locals worship a deity named Bu’gundu and why?

I’m not sure how that applies here at all. Catholics don’t believe Mary to be a deity, or a lesser deity. We recognize that in Scripture (which we believe is the written Word of God) Mary said “…all generations shall call me blessed…” and we choose not to ignore that. We also recognize that Christ, when speaking to John at the Cross, said, “Woman, behold your son…son, behold, your mother…” and we believe that in this moment Mary’s Motherhood was extended to all man-kind.

So if you want to change you scenario up a bit, where “Bu’gundu” gave birth to “U’ruma”, and it is easily discovered after the most basic information search that “Bu’gundu” is not believed to be a deity in any way shape or form, and the people who honor her do so because they believe her son extended her motherhood to all men and that she leads them to “U’ruma”…then maybe you might start getting closer to a similar line of thought. But I find it better to deal with reality rather than fictitious characters. If you want to discuss Mary and the Catholic teachings…then stick with that.