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PRmerger
Guest
Why not simply use catechesis to correct the misunderstanding?
I find it unnecessary to change my correct behavior because someone misunderstands it.
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I find it unnecessary to change my correct behavior because someone misunderstands it.
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PRmerger
Guest
It means that no one should worship any other gods.
And Catholics don’t worship any other gods. We worship the One True God.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Q
QuickCat
Guest
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary [K-Z]
mediatrix
MEDIA’TRIX, n. A female mediator.
Is it not true that the RCC names Mary as the mediatrix?
Does this not conflict with 1 Tim. 2:5 where Paul writes that there is “ONE mediator between man and God?” Of course, the ONE mediator IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Best,
QC
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Taestron
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]1 Thessalonians 5:22[/BIBLEDRB]. If catechesis can correct the misunderstanding, then by all means go for it. However, if the misunderstanding persists and has been known to continually persist, should we not ask ourselves whether or not our exact behavior can be changed to still reflect the truth but lessen the chance for misunderstanding? I am not trying to say that Catholics should be more careful with Mary: this is not for me, an outsider, to say. But if something from my denomination (i.e. altar calls) has lost some of its safeguards and people are concerned, then I should examine ways in which the action can appear less idolatrous. This is not because the way we perform altar calls are necessarily bad, but if the way in which we perform them cause harm to others, then by all means, we should change them.
J
JRKH
Guest
From the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church:
62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)
**For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. **Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.
Bolding mine…
Full text HERE
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JRKH
Guest
This is good advice, but sometimes it is nearly impossible to avoid “all appearance of evil” - where the “appearance” is “in the eye of the beholder”.
Two considerations here
- Catechesis is obviously very important but it also requires the co-operation of our non-Catholic brethren. In these kinds of cases, Catechesis is an individual to individual endeavor. For a simplified example…A protestant minister teaches his congregation that "Catholics Worship Mary…suddenly a hundred people believe this error. A member of that congregation asks his Catholic friend abut this and is given a proper and correct explanation. Now - what should this person do…Should he not explain to his minister that he was in error about what the Catholic Church teaches? Should that minister then recant his error to his flock? What is the likelihood that this will happen?
- There may well be room for some changes that could minimize the chance of misunderstanding. I say this because of the many changes in how we interact with those in authority over us. Centuries ago it would not be uncommon to kneel before a king or the kings representative or even a member of the king’s family as a sign of honor - but certainly not worship (in a Latria sense). Thus kneeling before a statue of Mary would not automatically have made someone think “inappropriate worship”.
Today, no one kneels before a president or prime minister…At most one might give a bow, as is common in Japan. So - if I choose to stand in front of a statue of Mary and maybe give a quick bow of the head, do you think that our protestant friends would be less likely to call that inappropriate worship?
I agree with some of this because I know that our Lady does not wish to be - in any way - an obstacle, a barrier, or a point of contention between Christians.
But like I said earlier…We Catholics cannot do it alone…We need the help of every non-Catholic Christian who has read and discussed and recognize the true Church teaching to share this with their fellows so that the misunderstandings can be corrected…
Peace
James
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tabycat
Guest
He is 100 per cent Man and 100 percent God.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Stay on topic please.
"Worship of Mary?"
Stay on topic please.
"Worship of Mary?"
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TimothyH
Guest
Moses was a mediator between God and man.
Moses slogged up and down the mountain, brining God’s proposals to the people and the people’s response back to God. The people would not speak to God directly for fear of dying so they explicitly asked Moses to mediate between themselves and God.
When the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the trumpet blast and the mountain smoking, they all feared and trembled. So they took up a position much farther away and said to Moses, "You speak to us, and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we shall die." (Exodus 20:18-19)
In fact, many Bibles have the heading, “Moses Accepted as Mediator” right above verse 18.
Moses mediated a covenant between God and the Israelites, and that is what Paul was talking about - mediation of a covenant.
***But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates **is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:6)
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant (Hebrews 9:15)
**and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant *(Hebrews 12:24)
Paul is talking about Jesus being the mediator of a covenant. Remember that Paul was a Jew, and the covenant was everything to the Jews. Jews were God’s chosen people because only the Jews were chosen to be in a covenant relationship with God. Their entire identity as a nation and everything they did and taught and believed and how they acted was wrapped up in the idea of being the people of the covenant.
The covenant which Moses mediated was imperfect, becuase Moses was an imperfect mediator. Moses was only a man.
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)
Christ is the one mediator of the one perfect covenant between God and man, because Christ alone is both God and man. Because Christ is both God and man, Christ is the only one capable of ***perfect mediation ***between God and man.
One God - the man Christ Jesus - mediator of a perfect covenant.
Mary is not the mediator of a covenant. That would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5. Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace, and that does not contradict 1 Timothy 2:5 because Paul is talking about the mediation of a covenant, not about mediation of grace.
We have to read scripture in light of the context, as a first century Jew would have read it, and the way it was written by first century Jews. The covenant is the context.
Everything is covenant to the Jews. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. That is why she can mediate grace.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
Covenants, mediation, one mediator, mediation of grace, the ark of the covenant… An understanding of these are required if one is to understand how Marian devotion is in fact not worship.
Marian devotion is worship of mary without a proper understanding of the Exodus, Moses’ role in covenant/salvation history, and the old testament mediation of the Queen-Mother between the members of the kingdom and the King.
That is what much of the conversation here is about. I rarely express myself to the moderators, but I don’t think most of the discussion here is off topic at all.
-Tim-
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PRmerger
Guest
I do not believe that what you are saying is Biblical, Taestron.
I think that Jesus has said, in Matthew 10, that if people don’t accept what you say, what you do, how you proclaim the gospel, that you should shake the dust from your feet.
He never said to change how you do things if people misconstrue what Christians do.
I mean, really, Taestron, does that even sound like a reasoned practice? Homeschoolers are misconstrued as being anti-social, quasi-Amish, odd-balls. I don’t believe for a moment that they should stop what they’re doing because others misunderstand what they are doing.
I respectfully say that I can’t think of a single moral practice that would fit into your paradigm.
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QuickCat
Guest
Mary is not the mediator of a covenant. That would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5. Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace, and that does not contradict 1 Timothy 2:5 because Paul is talking about the mediation of a covenant, not about mediation of grace.
We have to read scripture in light of the context, as a first century Jew would have read it, and the way it was written by first century Jews. The covenant is the context.
Everything is covenant to the Jews. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. That is why she can mediate grace.
-Tim-
Tim: Paul is the apostle of grace. He is the only Biblical writer to write of the dispensation of the grace of God. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. 1 Tim 2:5 is very clear that he is the only mediator between man and God in this dispensation of the grace of God. Paul uses the term “grace” [in some form] 85 times in his epistles. This is more than all the rest of the Bible combined. The word is found only 4 times in the 4 gospels.
If you are going to study the grace principle you should be in Paul’s epistles.
Hope this is helpful.
QC
We have to read scripture in light of the context, as a first century Jew would have read it, and the way it was written by first century Jews. The covenant is the context.
Everything is covenant to the Jews. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. That is why she can mediate grace.
-Tim-
Tim: Paul is the apostle of grace. He is the only Biblical writer to write of the dispensation of the grace of God. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. 1 Tim 2:5 is very clear that he is the only mediator between man and God in this dispensation of the grace of God. Paul uses the term “grace” [in some form] 85 times in his epistles. This is more than all the rest of the Bible combined. The word is found only 4 times in the 4 gospels.
If you are going to study the grace principle you should be in Paul’s epistles.
Hope this is helpful.
QC
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TimothyH
Guest
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aragonjohn1
Guest
Mary was raised to the dignity of Mother of God rather for sinners than for the just, since Jesus Christ declares that he came to call not the just, but sinners.
St. Anselm
Here we see that we seek to honor Mary as the mother of Our Lord not to worship her
God bless
St. Anselm
Here we see that we seek to honor Mary as the mother of Our Lord not to worship her
- QuoteCatholic.com/index.php/forgiveness-sin/st-anselm-mother-ofgod/#comment-7370
- QuoteCatholic.com/index.php/category/mary-saints/
- QuoteCatholic.com
God bless
Q
QuickCat
Guest
Mother of God? That doesn’t even make common sense. God has no beginning or end. Mary was the Mother of the humanity of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was the I AM, God Almighty, long before Mary was born. Long before the universe was created.
QC
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PRmerger
Guest
Who do you think Jesus is? *Not *God?
If you believe he’s God, and Mary is his mother, then Mary is the mother of …
God.
All declarations about Mary are only there to enhance and enrich our understanding of Jesus.
Mary is the mother of God is a declaration that highlights the fact that Jesus is divine.
It has nothing to do with elevating Mary.
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peace2u2
Guest
Yes, that is correct that God has no beginning or end; God is the I AM, Almighty, long before Mary was born, long before the universe was even created, yet God, the I AM, knew Mary before she was even knit in her mother’s womb and she was included in His plan to bring about salvation to all of us before the world was even created.
She is the vessel whose “yes” allowed God’s will to do His work among mortal men.
We have to remember that God is pure Spirit and He uses people, things and situations to speak to us and communicate with us.
If we can believe that God, who is pure spirit and who is all-knowing, all-infinite and all-powerful, could limit Himself and became a man in the womb of a young pios Hebrew girl, then why is it so hard to give Praise to God for giving us the perfect Mother?
Mary has many titles, including Mother of God, Blessed Mother, Blessed Virgin, Holy Mary, Queen of Heaven,; the link will bring you to a prayer that will list some more:
padrepiodevotions.org/loretolitany.asp
All prayer to Mary or really any Saint or any type of prayer devotion leads to JESUS, GOD, the ALMIGHTY.
If I bumped into you on the street, say you were a friend of mine, and I asked if you would pray for my sister who is struggling with addiction, and you said yes, and you did offer up prayer to God that He would heal my sister, well that is like how we pray to Mary, the Mother of God.
Hope this helped you in understanding.
Also, I am a visual person and I need things to remind me of God’s great love for me and not just words, and He knows this, because I tend to be a little forgetful and that is why God allows us to have statues because they remind us of Him.
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aragonjohn1
Guest
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zz912
Guest
Ah, the old Nestorian heresy. This was answered by the Christian faith almost 1600 years ago.
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