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Dr_Meinheimer
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It seems to create an imbalance true, but since schools are localized, why shouldn’t people spending more of their money on their property and in turn paying higher property taxes benefit from said taxes?
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Would a Biden Presidency Mean the End of Charter Schools?
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PaulinVA
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The goal of charter schools should not be to give a better education to the students that can “escape” the public schools. They were originally pitched as competition that would cause the public schools to get better.
Any studies?
Any studies?
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cloistered
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Studies show that scores drop (in math) or remain the same (Lang arts) when students use vouchers to switch from public to private. Here is a study of Indiana’s voucher program.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/pam.22086
It is easy enough to find similar results for LA, DC, MI.
Catholic schools do not outperform public schools academically; their student population is just much different.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/pam.22086
It is easy enough to find similar results for LA, DC, MI.
Catholic schools do not outperform public schools academically; their student population is just much different.
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PaulinVA
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My question is what happens to the public schools when the motivated parents leave.Studies show that scores drop (in math) or remain the same (Lang arts) when students use vouchers to switch from public to private. Here is a study of Indiana’s voucher program.
blackforest
Well-known member
I thought the money only went to parents interested in applying, i.e. those who do care. Maybe it depends on the state?You can’t just give the money to the parents as some could care less if their child goes to school at all.
Honestly? Better teacher:student ratios as you mentioned. This is why funding is indeed important. I’m a bit of a skeptic with all of the outcome measurements, however. Critical thinking and innovative thinking, for example, is hard to measure with little test bubbles. Not all schools teach the same material with the same pedagogy, either. That’s why I take a lot of performance data with a grain of Morton salt.What are they actually doing to have better outcomes and is it anything the public schools could do too?
That said . . .
One quick nitpick, if I may: Charter schools are public schools. It sounds trivial and people mean well, but referring to “charter schools vs. public schools” reminds me a bit of Protestants asking, “Are you Catholic or Christian?” I refer instead to charter schools and district schools.The goal of charter schools should not be to give a better education to the students that can “escape” the public schools. They were originally pitched as competition that would cause the public schools to get better.
Any studies?
At any rate, I haven’t personally heard that argument about charter schools making district schools “better,” and it didn’t factor into our charter school decision. What is meant by “get better?” Academically better? Less crime in public schools? Higher graduation rates from high school?
Notwithstanding the caveats of performance data, charter school overall do as well or better than district schools.
They would either improve or perish, I’d imagine. There’s a chance, however small, that they’d stay the same. Are motivated parents supposed to stay? Is that helping them improve? A motivated parent does what’s best for their child. If low-income parents who works two jobs, (i.e. no time for the “parental involvement” that drives private schools and district schools in wealthier areas), I can hardly judge them for seeking better opportunities for their children.My question is what happens to the public schools when the motivated parents leave.
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cloistered
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They have less money to educate the poor, the handicapped, the non-english speakers, the foster kids; the are left with less money for the students who cost the most.
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PaulinVA
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That’s a distinction without a difference. The public money goes to the charter school, which has it’s own administration, etc.One quick nitpick, if I may: Charter schools are public schools. It sounds trivial and people mean well, but referring to “charter schools vs. public schools” reminds me a bit of Protestants asking, “Are you Catholic or Christian?” I refer instead to charter schools and district schools.
Years ago, that was the reason given for charter schools. Put a little competition in play. It would cause the public schools to get better to compete for students.At any rate, I haven’t personally heard that argument about charter schools making district schools “better,” and it didn’t factor into our charter school decision. What is meant by “get better?” Academically better? Less crime in public schools? Higher graduation rates from high school?
Of course they do. They cherry pick students. They don’t offer the kinds of special ed the public schools are required to by law.Notwithstanding the caveats of performance data, charter school overall do as well or better than district schools.
The public schools can’t perish. They have legal requirements to provide an education to all children in the district.They would either improve or perish, I’d imagine.
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blackforest
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Correct. District schools and charter schools are both public schools. The language of distinguishing charter schools from public schools is misleading. Charter schools are not private schools.That’s a distinction without a difference. The public money goes to the charter school, which has it’s own administration, etc.
I’m not sure where you’re hearing all of this, but rest assured, it is inaccurate and incorrect. Despite any anecdotes you may have heard, they cannot legally “cherry pick” students. It also isn’t feasible because there’s no merit-based admission. Finally, all of them are required to retain IEP specialists.Of course they do. They cherry pick students. They don’t offer the kinds of special ed the public schools are required to by law.
As a whole, they can’t and won’t. But individual ones routinely close down.The public schools can’t perish. They have legal requirements to provide an education to all children in the district.
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PaulinVA
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Correct. District schools and charter schools are both public schools. The language of distinguishing charter schools from public schools is misleading. Charter schools are not private schools.
You are correct. I learned something.Finally, all of them are required to retain IEP specialists.
I’m speaking of a district, not an individual school.As a whole, they can’t and won’t. But individual ones routinely close down.
The charter school movement had altruistic beginnings - the City Academy in St Paul, MN to help struggling students. It’s since been embraced by the Christian Right as a way to use public monies to fund Christian education. Now, “Christian” education is fine, and we could discuss the merits of using tax dollars to fund it, but I fear the public schools suffer because of charters.
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Ridgerunner
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I hear these types of comments all the time but I never hear why they perform better? Better student teacher ratios? That seems to be a big indicator of better results. What are they actually doing to have better outcomes and is it anything the public schools could do too?
- Better discipline in Catholic and Lutheran schools. Lots of Christian schools too.
- Parents who are more interested in their childrens’ education. It’s quite a sacrifice to send your kid to a Catholic or Lutheran school, and it tells you a lot about the parents who do.
- Because of better discipline (and parental support) class size doesn’t matter very much in Catholic and Lutheran schools. They can be quite large and still teach well.
- Fewer bureaucratic positions to be paid for. No princely administrative salaries. More modest buildings.
- Teaching basics instead of social concerns and politically correct stuff.
- Actual belief in God is an aid to good conduct and a proper attitude toward learning.
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Ridgerunner
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A higher ratio of students who become Democrats.My question is what happens to the public schools when the motivated parents leave.
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Pattylt
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I agree…I looked into it a bit and while they can’t cherry pick, they locate themselves in wealthier areas and don’t provide bus service. This automatically eliminates many kids from the other side of town. By their very nature, they have more motivated and involved parents…factors known to improve results but tend to not get kids where mom and dad work multiple jobs, don’t have a car, etc. many are also free to use alternate programs, some with great results and some that are really good for some students but fail others.I’m not sure where you’re hearing all of this, but rest assured, it is inaccurate and incorrect. Despite any anecdotes you may have heard, they cannot legally “cherry pick” students. It also isn’t feasible because there’s no merit-based admission. Finally, all of them are required to retain IEP specialists.
So, they wind up with better and mostly wealthier kids in spite of not discriminating. Also, when they first open, they are often located in temporary buildings that might not have handicapped access…this has improved as more buildings are required now to be handicapped accessible…but not when charters first began!
I’m of the opinion that we need to quit testing so excessively…everyone teaching to the test now has become destructive…but, we do need to have some way to evaluate how students are doing! Reduced testing would be a start. Our schools have used test scores to rank schools into categories and those failing are put on a probationary period where after X years, if still failing, they are closed. We’ve closed two schools now causing great problems for parents of those kids. And the mediocre ones continue to be mediocre…they don’t get put on probation for mediocrity!
blackforest
Well-known member
I’m going to assume in good faith that you read your Forbes op/ed carefully before posting it. Some of its statements are patently false, which may explain the author’s inability/unwillingness to provide supporting evidence.
Charter school critics love to focus on the EMO-run schools as the alleged archetype of all charter schools, but EMOs are in the minority.
- We’ve already established that children have access to IEPs in charter schools. The article flat-out lies about that.
- There is no more “paperwork and bureaucracy” for charter schools than for district schools - trust me, I’ve had my children enrolled in both.
- Its example of Success Academy pertains to a for-profit charter. Like @Pattylt I don’t support the for-profit charters. As much as I’m all for free-market competition for my groceries and car, I don’t believe in corporate control over education, prisons, or even health care. Most charter schools operate independently.
Charter school critics love to focus on the EMO-run schools as the alleged archetype of all charter schools, but EMOs are in the minority.
- Charter schools are subject to the same standardized testing as district schools and the same transparency laws as all non-profit organizations. So there goes that Forbes talking point . . .
- How on earth does any of the aforementioned issues broached in your article rebut the indisputable fact that charter schools are public schools? This opinion piece is only rehashing talking points from the NEA trade union without even supporting the premise of its title.
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blackforest
Well-known member
Do you have data showing that most of these schools are in wealthier communities, or is this just what you’ve observed in your own city? Charter schools have widespread support from traditionally marginalized ethnicities, so they must be taking hold significantly in their communities. A racial divide has emerged among Democrats on charter schools - ChalkbeatI agree…I looked into it a bit and while they can’t cherry pick, they locate themselves in wealthier areas and don’t provide bus service.
On the bus issue, charter schools in our area fund their own buses. Because the enrollment district for charters is large, it can be a long bus ride for students. But it’s free and the most we can afford.
One charter school in our area is fortunate to be close to a Boys and Girls Club. So a teacher’s aid can walk children over there after-school to accommodate working parents. Our charter has an on-site after-school program.
??? The ADA has been around for quite awhile, and all schools - charter, district, or private - must be ADA compliant.Also, when they first open, they are often located in temporary buildings that might not have handicapped access…this has improved as more buildings are required now to be handicapped accessible…but not when charters first began!
You and I are in agreement here. The testing system punishes teachers for factors beyond their control. They cannot raise other people’s children for them.I’m of the opinion that we need to quit testing so excessively…everyone teaching to the test now has become destructive…but, we do need to have some way to evaluate how students are doing! Reduced testing would be a start.
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PaulinVA
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I didn’t read the whole article, no.I’m going to assume in good faith that you read your Forbes op/ed carefully before posting it. Some of its statements are patently false, which may explain the author’s inability/unwillingness to provide supporting evidence.
Are you saying that a private school can’t be given public monies?Nobody pays tuition for a charter school. So where is the money coming from, if not taxpayers? Using your own words, can you tell me how a charter school isn’t a public school?
I think there are different state models for charters, so maybe a generalized answer isn’t appropriate, but I think it would depend on state oversight. Does public refer to the openness to all students, or to the governing structure?
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Pattylt
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I fully admit I’m using my city only. That’s also why I know about handicapped access as our first charter school was located in a warehouse! So, I agree my knowledge base is very limited!Do you have data showing that most of these schools are in wealthier communities, or is this just what you’ve observed in your own city
Which brings up another question…is the IEP requirement national? I ask because I have a granddaughter using IEP and never knew they had them…if it is national, has it always been so?
Btw, thanks for a very informative post! I’m learning a lot. Even I have been mixing private with public. Our two Christian schools were originally called private charter schools. That was either allowed when they first opened or they stretched the truth a bit there. I do know that they are now listed as private after they got into some problems with their program and specifically, cherry picking students yet trying to get legislation to pay for (part or all) of the school programs.
blackforest
Well-known member
No. I didn’t say that. Private schools can apply for limited federal funding, e.g. parochial schools getting on the federal breakfast and lunch program.Are you saying that a private school can’t be given public monies?
Charter schools don’t charge tuition. They run primarily on public funds, making them public schools.
The legal definition centers around funding. The part in bold applies to our discussion.Does public refer to the openness to all students, or to the governing structure?
Public School Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
All students residing within the boundaries may apply to a charter school.“Public school” means “any elementary or secondary educational institution, and “public college” means any institution of higher education or any technical or vocational school above the secondary school level, provided that such public school or public college is operated by a State, subdivision of a State, or governmental agency within a State, or operated wholly or predominantly from or through the use of governmental funds or property, or funds or property derived from a governmental source.”
Yes. Paul posted this link above explaining the rights of students with special needs at charter schools. https://sites.ed.gov/idea/files/dcl-factsheet-201612-504-charter-school.pdfWhich brings up another question…is the IEP requirement national?
I’m not sure how long this requirement has been in place. We just started at our charter school and are getting an IEP set up for one of our children.
Charter schools don’t have a ton of funding, but that’s still no excuse to open one in a disability-unfriendly warehouse! Yikes. We’re in an ugly, 70s style office building that they’ve miraculously transformed into a living, working school!
What a strange label. I wonder what on earth they had in mind (??) Is it a “classical” school by chance? I love classical education, but unfortunately for us Catholics and families of other beliefs, it has been hijacked by a number of fundamentalist churches.Our two Christian schools were originally called private charter schools.
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If traditional public schools are failing, every child who has to attend one of these failing public schools should have the opportunity to escape it. Public charter schools are the public option.The goal of charter schools should not be to give a better education to the students that can “escape” the public schools.
It isn’t a nitpick. It is an important point. While I’m not speaking about @PaulinVA, the language “public school vs. charter schools “ is intentional to speak the false idea that charters aren’t really public schools.One quick nitpick, if I may: Charter schools are public schools. It sounds trivial and people mean well, but referring to “charter schools vs. public schools” reminds me a bit of Protestants asking, “Are you Catholic or Christian?” I refer instead to charter schools and district schools.
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PaulinVA
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But doesn’t that mean that only the children who can leave would benefit from the charter? What about the other kids? Don’t they deserve better.?traditional public schools are failing, every child who has to attend one of these failing public schools should have the opportunity to escape it. Public charter schools are the public option.
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