Would a human clone have a soul?

[saylo]

Exactly my point. Where is God present in vitro? And if you say that it ie because of two sets of DNA, then what about identical twins where there is only one set of DNA?

Doesn’t identical twins get their DNA’s from BOTH their parents?

Even identical twins (not positive) can have a code or two different than the other…a kind of ratio of their parents’ DNA’s. They have subtle differences otherwise they would not be individuals. I am not that well versed on this but I’m trusting memory. I can easily look it up though.

 

[saylo]

No…a clone would have DNA from 2 sources…the parents of the host.

A clone is simply an identical twin of the host, conceived artificially in a laboratory. Genetically, it isn’t missing any DNA. It would have all the necessary chromosomes.

Please note, I am in no way defending cloning, just explaining what it is.

After fertization of a clone the mother’s DNA is totally taken out. The only DNA that remains until term is the host’s.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Doesn’t identical twins get their DNA’s from BOTH their parents?

Even identical twins (not positive) can have a code or two different than the other…a kind of ratio of their parents’ DNA’s. They have subtle differences otherwise they would not be individuals. I am not that well versed on this but I’m trusting memory. I can easily look it up though.

Identical twins have identical DNA. Differences in twins are environmental not genetic.

If 2 sets of identical twins marry…their children are genetic sibling.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

After fertization of a clone the mother’s DNA is totally taken out. The only DNA that remains until term is the host’s.

But the host got his/her DNA from 2 different sources.

 

[maggie2]

What do you mean the mother’s DNA is taken out?

Isn’t a clone an exact replica of the DNA of the “host”?

And just to clarify, the differences commonly seen in identical twins is not due to a difference in the DNA - the DNA is identical. Differences could be due to environmental factors, DNA mutations or differences in the expression of the genes. But all the genes are the same.

 

[NTOT]

Even though IVF begins outside of the body and is not “of God”, the babies produced still are blessed by a soul.

This is not known, only speculation. It could very well be the vehicle of the antichrist.

Why would a clone be any different. Life would begin outside of the body just as with IVF, so why do you think that the baby would not have a soul but be possessed by a spirit from the Abyss?

It is different than IVF because with IVF there is fertilization and conception. With cloning there is no fertilization and conception. There is only the removal of cells from a donor (man or woman exclusivly, not both) which is incited to grow of its own accord within the the membrane of a host cell and subsequently implanted in a woman’s uterus. This is also why it is theroetically possible to produce interspecies offspring using this method. Whether or not such a creature has a human soul, half of a human soul, no soul, etc., is not known.

 

[NTOT]

And just to clarify, the differences commonly seen in identical twins is not due to a difference in the DNA - the DNA is identical. Differences could be due to environmental factors, DNA mutations or differences in the expression of the genes. But all the genes are the same.

DNA is only part of the equation. For example, two cows with identical DNA can have enitrely different color patterns as well as differences in conformation.

 

[NTOT]

Identical twins have identical DNA. Differences in twins are environmental not genetic.

If 2 sets of identical twins marry…their children are genetic sibling.

Not true, it depends which combination of genes each parent contributes. The offspring of brother and sister identical twins (which are themselves extremely rare) can be and will most likely be very different from his parents.

 

[maggie2]

Oh - I think I know what you mean. You mean the ‘mother’ as in the woman carrying the fetus in her womb. I was think of ‘mother’ in terms of the woman who contributed half of the DNA to the fetus clone.

I actually don’t think the mother’s (in your sense of the word - the woman carrying the fetus) DNA has anything to do with it at all - they just use the egg, but remove all the DNA prior to placing the clone’s DNA inside of the egg. They don’t remove any DNA after the clone has been ‘fertilized’ (although this doesn’t even happen).

The point is - there is DNA originally coming from 2 different sources - half from the mother and half from the father. But I do understand the argument of saying that it’s only from one source in the case of a clone, as it’s an exact copy and doesn’t come directly come about from the fusing of 2 different sets of DNA, as during conception or even IVF.

But I still very much believe that a clone would have a soul NOT saying that I think it’s okay to make clones, though!

 

[maggie2]

DNA is only part of the equation. For example, two cows with identical DNA can have entirely different color patterns…

That’s why I mentioned that the ‘expression’ of the genes can account for differences. The DNA remains identical.

Oh wait - I think you may have been agreeing with me.

 

[maggie2]

Not true, it depends which combination of genes each parent contributes. The offspring of brother and sister identical twins (which are themselves extremely rare) can be and will most likely be very different from his parents.

I don’t think she meant that the offspring would be identical, just that they would be "genetic siblings’, as in if a geneticist were to look at DNA samples taken from children of each set of parents, there would be no way to tell which parents they came from. They would all appear to be siblings since all of the parent DNA is identical.

 

[maggie2]

I think we may be getting a bit off topic… sorry…

 

[Coreopisis]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. This is a facinating topic.

I think the question is much more simple than the discussion has become.

In my opinion God gives a soul to a person when an egg comes together with a sperm. When this happens God determines what the person looks like, what the person will be like, what illnesses he/she is predisposed to have and so forth and God grants him/her a soul. An egg and a sperm can come together in many circumstances. IVF, rape, incest and whatnot. This was one of his gifts to mankind. We can reproduce and God gave us a way to do it.

However when you talk about skipping the sperm and egg and instead replicating cells to make a clone you are doing two things.

1. You are making all the choices that God usually makes. You are determining what the person will look like, and what he/she will be like. You are essentially making a replica of something God created.
2. You are not creating life in the manner that he has blessed for us the manner in which he gave us by bringing the sperm and the egg together.

This is why my Grandma and I were wondering if it would have a soul.

Any thoughts on this perspective?

 

[childofmary1143]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. This is a facinating topic.

I think the question is much more simple than the discussion has become.

In my opinion God gives a soul to a person when an egg comes together with a sperm. When this happens God determines what the person looks like, what the person will be like, what illnesses he/she is predisposed to have and so forth and God grants him/her a soul. An egg and a sperm can come together in many circumstances. IVF, rape, incest and whatnot. This was one of his gifts to mankind. We can reproduce and God gave us a way to do it.

However when you talk about skipping the sperm and egg and instead replicating cells to make a clone you are doing two things.

1. You are making all the choices that God usually makes. You are determining what the person will look like, and what he/she will be like. You are essentially making a replica of something God created.
2. You are not creating life in the manner that he has blessed for us the manner in which he gave us by bringing the sperm and the egg together.

This is why my Grandma and I were wondering if it would have a soul.

Any thoughts on this perspective?

Very excellent questions. Perhaps an orthodox theologian specializing in bioethics could answer it?

 

[maggie2]

Sarah - thank you for reeling this discussion back in to what you intended it to be. Again, I apologize for my part in leading it off topic.

In response to your first point, I believe that, even though (urgh. here I go with the DNA stuff again!) the DNA is identical, and we think we’re “choosing” the charcteristics of the person, God still blesses the person with life and in the end, He is the one who truely chooses the characteristics that this person will exhibit, and the life experiences that will shape who they are.

The body may be identical, but the person and the spirit are not. God still creates the body. Even when it’s a clone - do any of us really think that humans are capable of ‘creating’ anything, let alone something as beautiful and complex as a human being?

Like I mentioned before, I believe that the only one who knows the truth here would have to be God Himself, but I also have to believe that any human, no matter how they came to be, is still created by God Himself, and therefore would have a soul.

 

[NTOT]

That’s why I mentioned that the ‘expression’ of the genes can account for differences. The DNA remains identical.

Oh wait - I think you may have been agreeing with me.

Of course. Did I indicate disagreement? Just adding further weight to what you said.

 

[NTOT]

I don’t think she meant that the offspring would be identical, just that they would be "genetic siblings’, as in if a geneticist were to look at DNA samples taken from children of each set of parents, there would be no way to tell which parents they came from. They would all appear to be siblings since all of the parent DNA is identical.

But this is not entirely true. The mother contributes half the childs DNA and the father the other half. But this does not mean the mother contributes the first half and the father the remaining half which the mother did not contribute. Their respective contributions may overlap considerably.

 

[NTOT]

However when you talk about skipping the sperm and egg and instead replicating cells to make a clone you are doing two things.

1. You are making all the choices that God usually makes. You are determining what the person will look like, and what he/she will be like. You are essentially making a replica of something God created.
2. You are not creating life in the manner that he has blessed for us the manner in which he gave us by bringing the sperm and the egg together.

Due to the total absence of the procreative process of conception between a man, a woman, and God (conception even if procurred outside the norm of marital relations as in IVF still includes all the elements of the procreative process albiet they are performed separately) there would likely be no soul in a clone. It would most likely be animated by a demon of some sort. Especially in the case of hybrids. Half animal half demon.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Identical twins have identical DNA. Differences in twins are environmental not genetic.

If 2 sets of identical twins marry…their children are genetic sibling.

Ok to explain better:

Gina and Tina are identical twin sisters.

Tim and Tom are identical twin brothers.

Gina and Tim marry, and have baby Fred.

Tina and John marry, and have baby Ted.

Ted and Fred are first cousins…but if you test their DNA, they seem as if they were actually siblings.

Is that more clear?

Does everyone remember that infamous press conference with the loony scientist who announced that the first baby clone was born. What if that were actually true and not a publicity stunt?

Could there be a human child (about 5 years old) that has no soul, that God does not love? That God could not redeem?

In the creed we say, “The Lord the Giver of Life”

As much as he might want, the evil one has no power of creation. He cannot create other demons…

 

[maggie2]

Ok to explain better:

Gina and Tina are identical twin sisters.

Tim and Tom are identical twin brothers.

Gina and Tim marry, and have baby Fred.

Tina and John marry, and have baby Ted.

Ted and Fred are first cousins…but if you test their DNA, they seem as if they were actually siblings.

Is that more clear?

Does everyone remember that infamous press conference with the loony scientist who announced that the first baby clone was born. What if that were actually true and not a publicity stunt?

Could there be a human child (about 5 years old) that has no soul, that God does not love? That God could not redeem?

In the creed we say, “The Lord the Giver of Life”

As much as he might want, the evil one has no power of creation. He cannot create other demons…

“The Lord the Giver of Life” - this is a good point as any being that has life, this life has been given by God himself and he has blessed it.

Nothing can have life except through God.