Would a human clone have a soul?

[saylo]

Just a note to underscore …The Vatican Opposes Cloning.

That speaks volumes.

 

[NTOT]

“The Lord the Giver of Life” - this is a good point as any being that has life, this life has been given by God himself and he has blessed it.

Nothing can have life except through God.

But not all living things have a human immortal soul though. In this case in may or may not have a human soul, as the Church has not made a proclamation. Possibly one of the reasons it so vigourously condemns the idea.

 

[Coreopisis]

All good thoughts. None of us knows for absolute certainty whether or not a clone would have a soul. Only God does. But I think what is clear is that this question does feel disturbing. I believe that is our conscience talking and telling us it just isn’t right and as such we know not to try it.

I think Saylo makes a good point that the vatican opposes cloning. Yet the subject is still interesting. I wonder if the Vatican has ever published their reasons for opposing cloning. I can guess what their reasons would be but I would really like to see them.

My Grandma read a story in one of her pro-life magazines that someone somewhere did clone a lamb but it only lived a couple weeks and they don’t know why. I wonder if it was because it was without a soul? Has anyone heard of any situations where a clone has lived longer than a couple weeks?

Sarah

 

[Sir_Knight]

Just a note to underscore …The Vatican Opposes Cloning.

That speaks volumes.

The Vatican also opposes IVF but nowhere does it teach that the children produced from this procedure are born without souls and are possessed by spirits from the abyss. That ALSO speaks volumes.

Nobody is arguing that cloning is right just as nobody is saying that IVF is right but just because something isn’t right, doesn’t automaticly prove that God does not grant the off-spring a soul just as it was never believed that a child produced out of wed-lock (also something wrong in the eyes of God and Church teaching) does not have a soul.

 

[childofmary1143]

What I would like to know is, that while twins can have the same DNA, would they have identical fingerprints?

Isn’t twins the result of 2 eggs being fertilized with sperm?

 

[Coreopisis]

What I would like to know is, that while twins can have the same DNA, would they have identical fingerprints?

Isn’t twins the result of 2 eggs being fertilized with sperm?

There are two ways that twins can happen.

1. When the mother produces 2 eggs and both are fertalized.
2. When there is only 1 egg, it becomes fertalized, and then the egg splits.

The second is the case where you get identical twins, otherwise in the case of number 1 you get the twins that are not identical and even possibly opposite sexes.

 

[saylo]

The Vatican also opposes IVF but nowhere does it teach that the children produced from this procedure are born without souls and are possessed by spirits from the abyss. That ALSO speaks volumes.

Nobody is arguing that cloning is right just as nobody is saying that IVF is right but just because something isn’t right, doesn’t automaticly prove that God does not grant the off-spring a soul just as it was never believed that a child produced out of wed-lock (also something wrong in the eyes of God and Church teaching) does not have a soul.

Then, tell us, why is the Church opposed to cloning and IVF? Is it just a whim?

Why do you think these things are good in the spiritual sense? How can you be so sure a soul is instilled in these “conceptions?”

The BIG question is:

If a clone is brought to the Vatican (by special petition) to be Baptized…do you think it would receive baptism in St. Peter’s? Do you thnk it would be baptized anywhere else in the Catholic world?

I don’t think so.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Then, tell us, why is the Church opposed to cloning and IVF? Is it just a whim?

For the same reason that it is opposed to sex outside of marriage – because it is morally wrong.

Why do you think these things are good in the spiritual sense? How can you be so sure a soul is instilled in these “conceptions?”

I can’t but just because something is morally wrong is NO proof there is no soul in those “conceptions”. Children born outside of wedlock were “conceived” outside of the law of God but the Church still teaches that they have a soul and baptizes them.

Children born as a result of IVF are believed to have a soul and are baptized even though they are “conceived” outside of God’s law.

All of this disproved that those born outside of God’s law would not have a soul for THAT reason.

If (and that’s a BIG “if”) they would not have a soul, it would have to be for some other reason BESIDES being born outside of God’s law.

The BIG question is:

If a clone is brought to the Vatican (by special petition) to be Baptized…do you think it would receive baptism in St. Peter’s? Do you thnk it would be baptized anywhere else in the Catholic world?

I don’t think so.

The same thing was said when IVF was just a theory and many said that children from a test tube would not have a soul. The Church decided otherwise and allows for them to be baptized in the belief that they do have a soul.

Obviously we will not know for sure until Vatican make an official declaration on this matter but I believe that such a child WOULD be baptized in St. Peter’s or anywhere else in the Catholic world.

 

[saylo]

For the same reason that it is opposed to sex outside of marriage – because it is morally wrong.

I can’t but just because something is morally wrong is NO proof there is no soul in those “conceptions”. Children born outside of wedlock were “conceived” outside of the law of God but the Church still teaches that they have a soul and baptizes them.

Children born as a result of IVF are believed to have a soul and are baptized even though they are “conceived” outside of God’s law.

All of this disproved that those born outside of God’s law would not have a soul for THAT reason.

If (and that’s a BIG “if”) they would not have a soul, it would have to be for some other reason BESIDES being born outside of God’s law.

The same thing was said when IVF was just a theory and many said that children from a test tube would not have a soul. The Church decided otherwise and allows for them to be baptized in the belief that they do have a soul.

Obviously we will not know for sure until Vatican make an official declaration on this matter but I believe that such a child WOULD be baptized in St. Peter’s or anywhere else in the Catholic world.

Could you supply a link, please, that confirms that the Church allows “test tubers” to be baptized?

Is this with FULL KNOWLEDGE of the Church that the human form being brought to the baptism font is a test tube offspring?

You seem to know far more than me and I want to learn more of my closemindedeness.

So, a link would satisfy my doubts.

 

[NTOT]

Then, tell us, why is the Church opposed to cloning and IVF? Is it just a whim?

Because the Church opposes all acts or procedure which separate the life giving and unitive aspects of pro-creation as an intrinsic evil.

 

[NTOT]

If (and that’s a BIG “if”) they would not have a soul, it would have to be for some other reason BESIDES being born outside of God’s law.

It is outside of God’s law enough to where inter-species hybrids are also a possibility. Obviously a hybrid would not have a human soul. Unless it had both an immortal human soul and a material animal soul.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Could you supply a link, please, that confirms that the Church allows “test tubers” to be baptized?

Is this with FULL KNOWLEDGE of the Church that the human form being brought to the baptism font is a test tube offspring?

You seem to know far more than me and I want to learn more of my closemindedeness.

So, a link would satisfy my doubts.

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=4751 …

… A pastor I know has within the past couple of years baptized at least one set of multiple-birth babies resulting from IVF. Although the birth of children is a cause for joy, and receiving those children into the Church is an example of bringing good out of evil, there is a real danger of scandal in such circumstances. Frankly, when triplets or quads result from fertility drugs or IVF, there is no keeping the secret. If, then, the Church is seen as welcoming the children into the world, many will wrongly infer that there is no moral problem with IVF.

This should be unacceptable. A pastor or other preacher can respond to the situation sensitively without ignoring the moral issues raised. One way to approach this is, some weeks after a high profile multiple baptism, to focus the Sunday homily on the right to life and the ways we can unintentionally cause injustice. IVF could then be given as one of several examples of actions to avoid. Any Scriptural passage that enjoins the hearer to avoid injustice (and there is one of those every couple of weeks) could be the unifying element in the homily …

… No one is arguing that cloning isn’t wrong or that IVF isn’t wrong or that sex outside of marriage isn’t wrong – only that being wrong does not prove that the act results in a creature being produced without a soul.

 

[Sir_Knight]

It is outside of God’s law enough to where inter-species hybrids are also a possibility. Obviously a hybrid would not have a human soul. Unless it had both an immortal human soul and a material animal soul.

Now we’re really heading down a slippery slope

 

[NTOT]

Now we’re really heading down a slippery slope

May God have mercy on us for our modern tower of Babel.

 

[saylo]

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=4751 … … No one is arguing that cloning isn’t wrong or that IVF isn’t wrong or that sex outside of marriage isn’t wrong – only that being wrong does not prove that the act results in a creature being produced without a soul.

Thank you for the link. I am not trying to be difficult but this is an open letter by one who had IVF that bore a child. This is NOT a Church promulgation; it is an individual’s expressions.

As for the priest that baptized those IVF children…the priest can err…he is NOT the pope. SOME priests err from time to time and SOME err constantly; it’s the way things are in these latter days, IMO.

All due respect, Sir Knight, you gave it a try but it fell very short as far as I am concerned.

God bless.

 

[maggie2]

Why would the Catholic Church condemn the destruction of “discarded” embryos that are left-over from IVF treatments (“test-tubers”, as you called them)?

Because the have value. They have a soul.

If the Vatican held a position against baptism for IVF children, I would think that we would be able to find that information.

But the sheer fact that the Church is against destroying IVF embryos, indicates without a doubt that the Church knows they are blessed with a soul.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Thank you for the link. I am not trying to be difficult but this is an open letter by one who had IVF that bore a child. This is NOT a Church promulgation; it is an individual’s expressions.

As for the priest that baptized those IVF children…the priest can err…he is NOT the pope. SOME priests err from time to time and SOME err constantly; it’s the way things are in these latter days, IMO.

All due respect, Sir Knight, you gave it a try but it fell very short as far as I am concerned.

God bless.

And I can’t find anywhere on the web that children born out of wedlock should be baptized either. Maybe because it’s a non-issue just as the baptism of IVF babies.

 

[saylo]

And I can’t find anywhere on the web that children born out of wedlock should be baptized either. Maybe because it’s a non-issue just as the baptism of IVF babies.

This is an issue that we all should pray to the Holy Spirit for the light and wisdom. This subject, and the embracements (pro or con) can be a building block or a stumbling block for each individual as they advance toward the Light.

Holding either belief (one is wrong) can be a hindrance to the betterment of our souls.

IMO, as we course along in this world more and more of these byproducts of cloning (vegetation, animals, etc.) will be in our midst…it will either bring us closer to the Light or make us more distant.

Follow your conscience and pray for the knowledge of good and evil. Pray that we recognize the good as well as the evil.

This topic and the attitudes formed from it is DANGEROUS to our progress in the Light. It is like taking sides on something that is either holy or unholy. We should all pray about it as individuals in complete surrender to God’s will and wisdom.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I don’t see this as “stumbling blocks as we advance toward the Light” or “hindrance to the betterment of our souls”.

I think that we all in agreement that these actions are WRONG. No, if’s, and’s or but’s about it.

The area of disagreement is whether or not God would/will withhold a soul from a creature that was “conceived” outside of His law. We know that He does not do this for those born to parents out of wedlock. There is reason to believe that He also does not do this for IVF babies.

The question of this thread is what about clones?

 

[saylo]

I don’t see this as “stumbling blocks as we advance toward the Light” or “hindrance to the betterment of our souls”.

I think that we all in agreement that these actions are WRONG. No, if’s, and’s or but’s about it.

The area of disagreement is whether or not God would/will withhold a soul from a creature that was “conceived” outside of His law. We know that He does not do this for those born to parents out of wedlock. There is reason to believe that He also does not do this for IVF babies.

The question of this thread is what about clones?

Sir Knight, no one can wish a soul into a human form that originates in a laboratory and totally engineered by man.

The question on this thread is about CLONES…it’s obvious. The IVF and other types of engineered “conceptions” was introduced in the natural flow of conversation. If that is “straying” then I am guilty…how about you?

Even God did not have Himself “cloned.” He came into the world by a conception with a mother and a Father (Holy Spirit).

His Son, Jesus, is NOT a clone. He had a natural birth albeit a mystical one.

Clones are an entirely different thing. This is a form of continuing oneself beyond the natural law of life and death we all are subject to; sort of circumventing God’s plan for all of us. .

If a host/donor is cloned where does the soul come from? The clone does NOT need to be baptized since its host is himself and is in an “inherited” condition takes on the original baptism. In essence a clone is the same person…but it does not have a soul.

So is it TWO SOULS with TWO BAPTISMS?

So far as we know a human cloning has not yet occurred (not evinced anyway) so, hopefully, we are just “Whistling Dixie.”