Would God condemn the soul of an atheist who died in grave sin but otherwise had an upright heart?

[whyeyeman]

If you do not believe in God you cannot get to heaven. That’s as simple as it gets. It doesn’t matter how upright that person apparently is, the are sinning by rejecting God and their soul is still stained with original sin.

“If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:10

 

[2towers]

I think this is as about as close as we can get. Are you remorseful at the time of death? Do you have any regrets about the decisions you made, the bad things you did, the people you may have hurt? [including yourself.]

Even an atheist should be able to ask these questions. “Have I done wrong, and do I regret it?” If you have to boil it down to a simple question, I think that would be the one. If your arrogant at the end, if you feel "above being sorry, or are too full of bitterness and anger or hatred to care, there might be a serious problem.

 

[omgriley]

many people are… committing grave sin when in fact they have an otherwise upright heart perhaps greater than many devout Catholics who do not live in grave sin.

Perhaps the reason this bothers you is because it’s not true. What exactly is an “upright heart”?

I can see where such a person may be placed in Purgatory, but not the eternal suffering of hell.

Exactly what sort of person do you think goes to Hell?

My friend, one cannot be living a life of grave sin and be in a better position spiritually than one who is living in the state of grace. I think what you’re seeing in your friends is an apparent uprightness of heart, and an apparent goodness. You simply cannot be a good person while knowingly rejecting God. God is goodness Itself, to reject him is to be a bad person.

You can’t have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without the peanut butter and jelly. You cannot be a good person, a happy person, a loving person without God.

"God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing." - C. S. Lewis

 

[IWantGod]

It depends on what was in his heart when he died. I think its a mistake to think of God as a Punisher. God wants to save everyone and i think hell is self inflicted not imposed. People in hell hate God, they are rebelling against God, they don’t want to be with him; and God allows them to exist apart from him in a state of hell… This is God’s justice.

 

[Kei]

God knows, not us.

However, how can someone have an upright heart if they are living in mortal sin?
This doesn’t make sense to he honest.
The state of Grace is a state of our souls.

 

[IWantGod]

“God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing.” - C. S. Lewis

Love this quote. from C…S Lewis

 

[omgriley]

Love this quote. from C…S Lewis

Thanks, he’s one of my favorites.

I think your last point about God not being a Punisher is a little off though. It’s certainly true that God’s will is for all men to be saved and that he does give all of us the necessary grace to turn to Him. But it would be a mistake to say that Hell is merely a self-chosen seperation from God. That’s definitely the biggest part of the punishment, the “sharpest arrow in the quiver” but it’s not the only punishment.

To those in Hell, God does in fact inflict punishment on them proportionately to the nature of their sins in life. He not only allows them to make their choice to be with Him or not, but He also ensures that they are rightly punished for their sins.

“Vengeance is mine, and recompense,
for the time when their foot shall slip;
because the day of their calamity is at hand,
their doom comes swiftly.” Deuteronomy 32:35

There is also St. John Bosco’s vision of Hell:

I looked up in terror and saw in the distance someone racing down
the path at an uncontrollable speed. I kept my eyes on him, trying to
identify him, and as he got closer, I recognized him as one of my
boys. His disheveled hair was partly standing upright on his head and
partly tossed back by the wind. His arms were outstretched as though
he were thrashing the water in an attempt to stay afloat. He wanted
to stop, but could not. Tripping on the protruding stones, he kept
falling even faster. “Let’s help him, let’s stop him,” I shouted,
holding out my hands in a vain effort to restrain him.

“Leave him alone,” the guide replied.

“Why?”

“Don’t you know how terrible God’s vengeance is? Do you think you
can restrain one who is fleeing from His just wrath?”
Meanwhile the youth had turned his fiery gaze backward in an attempt
to see if God’s wrath were still pursuing him. The next moment he fell
tumbling to the bottom of the ravine and crashed against the bronze
portal as though he could find no better refuge in his flight.

“Why was he looking backward in terror?” I asked.

“Because God’s wrath will pierce Hell’s gates to reach and torment
him even in the midst of fire!”

 

[AlNg]

Here’s what Jesus said:
Matthew 25:31-46New International Version (NIV)
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
So, based on what Jesus has said, if the person, atheist or agnostic, has performed these acts of charity as mentioned and others also, it looks to me like he will be saved.

 

[steve-b]

We live in a society where many people are duped into not believing in God and committing grave sin when in fact they have an otherwise upright heart

perhaps greater than many devout Catholics who do not live in grave sin.

Robert,

That’s a contradiction in terms.

Robert_Sock:

This bothers me because I know of several such persons and I do not understand why a fair and just God would let a person with such great potential for loving and worshiping Him, if they knew for certain He existed, would condemn their soul. I can see where such a person may be placed in Purgatory, but not the eternal suffering of hell.

When it is said 1 Timothy 2:4 RSVCE - who desires all men to be saved and to - Bible Gateway
Don’t you think He gives all enough grace to fulfill that desire?

Yet He said few are saved. Not because God didn’t do His part.

Robert_Sock:

It sometimes feels like Catholicism has put together a “rule book” that denies the true mercy of God. The Jews of Chabad believe that everyone will be saved, but many will need to be purged of their sins in Purgatory. I honestly hope that these Jews are correct!

Except, That’s NOT what Jesus said. And He had the opportunity to correct the questioners point. Instead He validated the point and doubled down on the point.
Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

Why are only a few saved then? Jesus said, (emphasis mine)
“because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. Those who endure to the end (the few) are saved. When the gospel is preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; then the end will come.”
Mt 24:12-14, Matthew 24:12-14 RSVCE - And because wickedness is multiplied, - Bible Gateway

According to statistics, 160,000+ people die every day. For THEM the end of the world happens. They are immediately judged and they know where they will be spending eternity.

 

[anon65111186]

We don’t know how God has judged any person except the Saints and the fallen angels.

Therefore we can only speculate, but speculation is not knowledge.

The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn any individual person to hell, but teaches the commandments which Christ gave to the Church Himself.

If you have a problem with the Church’s rulebook, then you have a problem with Christ’s rulebook.

 

[Robert_Sock]

They can be full of genuine love, with a high potential for loving God and worshiping Him if given the opportunity after the existence of God becomes a reality for them. I was an atheist for many years and I truly believe I was in the control of God. I believe He wanted me to be a non-believer until I could more fully realize Him. Without having doubted Him, my faith would not be as strong as it is today. Today I no longer need faith because I now know that He exists. I do not believe that any of us will ever be able to conceptualize God, even in Heaven, but I now know for certain that an infinitely higher intelligence has to exists.

 

[Kei]

I’m glad to hear it!
But, surely God did not allow you to die prior to this.
And, surely you did not live in mortal sin while at the same time having a good heart at the same time?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Lets just say I used to be quite intimate with several girls, but I never knew it was a mortal sin because I never gave it any thought whatsoever.

 

[Kei]

Then that would be grave matter, but not necessarily mortal sin, I’m pretty sure, because it would be lacking the knowledge requirement, though it has grave matter and will requirement.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I went to a Catholic grade school and I knew that missing Sunday Mass was a serious sin while in grade school, but again, I never gave it any thought whatsoever as an atheist. I did not actually know I was sinning because I simply did not believe anything in Catholicism was true. If you asked me back then if I was committing a mortal sin each time I missed Sunday Mass I would have said certainly not.

 

[Kei]

So that was possibly Venial then, no?

But, back then, did you have an “upright heart”?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Without sounding conceited, I believe I was above the average in my ability to love and to forgive. I still feel a great love for all my former girlfriends, and it seems to grow stronger everyday even though I place little value on our earthly follies and doubt that we have much in common today. Can a person experience great love in committing fornication? I believe so, and I think my sins were easily forgivable given my life situation back then, but I would doubt that God would forgive me if I were to go back to that lifestyle today. I firmly believe that God judges fairly and takes into account one’s life situation.

 

[mdgspencer]

The opening post speaks of a person who is guilty of mortal sin. He isn’t speaking of someone who isn’t guilty of mortal sin, after all. These later messages, in all innocence, are changing the subject to a worthy subject, but not the question the opening poster asked. Being in mortal sin and having a good heart are incompatable. A good heart is a heart that is right, and not in inner darkness. Moral sin is not called mortal for no reason–it is called mortal because it means the death of the soul.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes, but I still contend that God can easily forgive mortal sin depending on one’s life situation and the potential that even an atheist may have in their ability to love and worship Him.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I tend to think people with upright hearts don’t commit grave sins. So I question your premise a little bit. I agree that God loves those who follow his will, witness his teaching. But, again, they are usually ‘good’. By the book good. I believe there are human beings who are saved by their ‘goodness’ who didn’t practice Christianity, such as Native Americans, those from other cultures, faiths, pagans. I agree that you can see good atheists, sometimes a lot better than folks who have been taking Eucharists for years and years. But part of being good to me is about the social good, not just personal goodness, but the exercise of civic, moral responsibility. Love thy neighbor, all that. The good are pretty easy to spot and not overly numerous.