Would God condemn the soul of an atheist who died in grave sin but otherwise had an upright heart?

[TheLittleLady]

God knew your heart, God knows your heart right now. 2 Peter chapter 2 speaks about those who knew the Truth and then rejected it.

 

[Gorgias]

Those described in lumen Gentium 16 are not outside the church, because they’re is no salvation outside the church. That is a dogma.

sigh.

EENS does not talk about people, it talks about salvation. All salvation happens because of the Church. However, that does not mean that all are “inside” the Church. If EENS were formulated as “no one outside the Church is saved”, you’d have a point. But that’s not the way it’s constructed, and that’s not what it says, and that’s not how the Church understands it.

Invincible ignorance means that you are not outside the church, but if you knew you were in error you would be outside the church.

No… in the context of salvation, it means that you are not outside salvation. You’re conflating ‘salvation’ with the means of salvation (i.e., the Church).

It is you who needs to learn definitions.

 

[whyeyeman]

It is a dogma that there is no salvation outside the church.

Do you deny this?

You do not know what invincible ignorance is.

It is when a person is ignorant of a certain truth of the church, and yet they are technically NOT OUTSIDE THE CHURCH because they are not to blame for their ignorance.

To state anything else would be to deny the dogma of the church that there is no salvation outside the church.

 

[Gorgias]

It is a dogma that there is no salvation outside the church.

Yep. Salvation comes from the Church. That’s correct.

However, EENS does not mean that “people outside of the Church are not saved.”

You do not know what invincible ignorance is.

Keep telling yourself that. Invincibly.

It is when a person is ignorant of a certain truth of the church, and yet they are technically NOT OUTSIDE THE CHURCH because they are not to blame for their ignorance.

So: an aborigine, deep in the outback of Australia, who’s never heard the Gospel preached, but yet is a good man… is not outside the Church? Is that your claim?

To state anything else would be to deny the dogma of the church that there is no salvation outside the church.

No… really, it wouldn’t be. But, like I said… keep on believiing that invincibly…

 

[whyeyeman]

It quite literally does mean that. The DOGMA is outside the church there is no salvation.

Stop denying this dogma, that is heresy.

 

[Gorgias]

It quite literally does mean that.

No, it really doesn’t. Please read the Catechism.

Stop denying this dogma, that is heresy.

I’m not denying the doctrine… just your misunderstanding of it.

 

[whyeyeman]

What part of “there is no salvation outside the church” don’t you understand, man!

 

[Gorgias]

What part of “there is no salvation outside the church” don’t you understand, man!

The part that you’ve created out of thin air…

The statement has to do with ‘salvation’ and ‘the Church’. Nothing in the statement says a thing about any people and their position vis-a-vis the Church…

 

[ChunkMonk]

Atheism itself is grave sin. You don’t know anyone’s heart. You think because they act nice when people are watching that you know who they really are. The Bible says that none of them are good. Catholics didn’t put together the rule book, they just gave it to you. God put together the rule book.

 

[PJM]

As

We live in a society where many people are duped into not believing in God and committing grave sin when in fact they have an otherwise upright heart perhaps greater than many devout Catholics who do not live in grave sin. This bothers me because I know of several such persons and I do not understand why a fair and just God would let a person with such great potential for loving and worshiping Him, if they knew for certain He existed, would condemn their soul. I can see where such a person may be placed in Purgatory, but not the eternal suffering of hell.

It sometimes feels like Catholicism has put together a “rule book” that denies the true mercy of God. The Jews of Chabad believe that everyone will be saved, but many will need to be purged of their sins in Purgatory. I honestly hope that these Jews are correct!

As a NORM, one must meet all 3 conditions in order to commit a Mortal sin 1 Jn 5:16-17
There are things like murder, abortion, slander, adultery and others that are INTRINSIC evils [things everyone OUGHT to know are gravely disordered] and are ALWAYS a Mortal sin.

The NORM though is

serious matter + pre-KNOWLEDGE of it being a grave matter + then deciding FREELY to at least WANT to do it anyway.

God’s ways and thoughts are NOT limited in understanding as is ours. Isaiah 55: 8-9

GOD can be accurately described as ALL GOOD THING PERFECTED; meaning God can ONLY desire that which is good or potentially GOOD.

It is literally IMPOSSIBLE for God NOT to be GOD [GOOD} so your concerns on THIS matter are misplaced.

GOD COMMITS HIMSELF TO OFFER [which can be rejected; not God’s desire or fault; “sufficient grace” that everyone can, could, and SHOULD know him.

The RCC plainly teaches that "IF THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN; ONE DOES KNOW God, the Bible and His Church; in some mysterious manner; GOD will save such a Soul. [Catholic Catechism #/s 1260, 846, 847, & 848] when they have practiced charity.

So God has done HIS PART, now we aLL MUST DO OURS AND STOP BLAMING GOD.

Secondly no NT, since Jesus Resurrection, soul in Mortal sin even gets to Purgatory. Such is the NORM as detailed above, and such would be SELF-CONDEMENED to Hell.

God can only desire GOOD things:

**1Tim.2 Verses 3 to 4 "[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, **
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Continued Blessings,

PJM

 

[whyeyeman]

No salvation outside the church means that no one outside the church can be saved. I know this is obvious, but you seem to be denying it.

If someone is outside the visible church, yet they are unaware of the necessity of being in the church, then they ARE NOT CONSIDERED OUTSIDE THE CHURCH.

 

[IWantGod]

think your last point about God not being a Punisher is a little off though. It’s certainly true that God’s will is for all men to be saved and that he does give all of us the necessary grace to turn to Him. But it would be a mistake to say that Hell is merely a self-chosen seperation from God. That’s definitely the biggest part of the punishment, the “sharpest arrow in the quiver” but it’s not the only punishment.

To those in Hell, God does in fact inflict punishment on them proportionately to the nature of their sins in life. He not only allows them to make their choice to be with Him or not, but He also ensures that they are rightly punished for their sins.

It seems to me that hell is a “natural” consequence of sin, and the degree of suffering in any particular soul is also a “natural” consequence of the sins that any particular soul has committed. Hell is not an artificial construct that god created to satisfy his displeasure with sin. God is not to be thought of as a human king who constructs torture chambers to punish the criminal. Human language in regards to God’s justice is an anthropomorphism. It is not to be taken literally…

If you truly comprehend.the quote from Cs Lewis you would understand that. For lack of better words, hell exists because God is not there, not because God imposes it.

We cannot truly comprehend what hell and heaven is really like. All we can do is imagine metaphors and allegories for something we have not experienced. We do not have the language to describe it, we do not have the qualia… I would not assume that the saintly visions of hell or heaven as they are described are literal presentations of heaven and hell as they truly are. That seems extremely unlikely to me if not impossible.

 

[BornInMarch]

Only if it’s qualifies as a mortal sin, and if he lacked contrition.

If full knowledge or deliberate consent was absent then it is not a mortal sin. Even if it is a mortal sin someone can still be saved if he or she is truly penitent.

 

[Gorgias]

No salvation outside the church means that no one outside the church can be saved. I know this is obvious, but you seem to be denying it.

It’s not only not obvious, it’s also untrue.

Read the Catechism. Seriously.
Catechism:

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation.

In other words, not all of humanity is part of the Church – although all are called to membership in the Church.
Catechism:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

In other words, they are outside the Church.

If someone is outside the visible church, yet they are unaware of the necessity of being in the church, then they ARE NOT CONSIDERED OUTSIDE THE CHURCH.

From Dominus Iesus:

"With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.

To whom does God’s salvific grace come, in this context? To Non-Christians. “Non”… that means “not”. God’s grace comes to those who are not Christians. How much more plain does it need to get for you?

 

[PJM]

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

 

[po18guy]

God condemns no one. The soul condemns itself.

 

[PapyrusDouay]

I believe you are not right. God cannot lie. To lie would be to deny Himself, for He is truth. He cannot deny Himself; He cannot lie. Therefore He cannot declare a person “guilty” if in truth the person is “not guilty.”

You are right that God cannot declare a person guilty and not guilty at the same time. That’s why the Catholic Church never declares anyone to be guilty. It always calls for people pray for loved ones or anyone that dies, with the hope that God has knowledge we don’t know that could eliminate their guilt for the sin.

Well…God COULD. To say otherwise would be to say God is not all powerful, which is false. God can do what ever he wants, and make it right. However, I think based on what we know of God, and his tendency to follow the rules he created that govern nature (e.g. Logic, sin, ) I think it is safe to say that he WOULDNT. I don’t think we can say he “couldn’t” or “cannot” lie or declare someone guilty or not guilty at the same time. He COULD change his mind on these matters. He can re-write the Bible and erase al our memories as to the previous version if he wanted. But…from what he has revealed to us, we can confidently say he won’t do that.

 

[Jared2914]

Jared2914:

I believe you are not right. God cannot lie. To lie would be to deny Himself, for He is truth. He cannot deny Himself; He cannot lie. Therefore He cannot declare a person “guilty” if in truth the person is “not guilty.”

You are right that God cannot declare a person guilty and not guilty at the same time. That’s why the Catholic Church never declares anyone to be guilty. It always calls for people pray for loved ones or anyone that dies, with the hope that God has knowledge we don’t know that could eliminate their guilt for the sin.

Well…God COULD. To say otherwise would be to say God is not all powerful, which is false. God can do what ever he wants, and make it right. However, I think based on what we know of God, and his tendency to follow the rules he created that govern nature (e.g. Logic, sin, ) I think it is safe to say that he WOULDNT. I don’t think we can say he “couldn’t” or “cannot” lie or declare someone guilty or not guilty at the same time. He COULD change his mind on these matters. He can re-write the Bible and erase al our memories as to the previous version if he wanted. But…from what he has revealed to us, we can confidently say he won’t do that.

God can do all that is good. He cannot do evil. Sometimes it might seem like God did evil, but only because we can’t see the whole picture. If we knew everything and could comprehend it, we would see God did good.

 

[whyeyeman]

It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity

So, they get baptism of desire… In other words, upon death they enter into the Church.

It makes no sense to say “outside the church there is no salvation… Unless you’re outside the church.”

 

[whyeyeman]

Well…God COULD. To say otherwise would be to say God is not all powerful, which is false. God can do what ever he wants, and make it right. However, I think based on what we know of God, and his tendency to follow the rules he created that govern nature (e.g. Logic, sin, ) I think it is safe to say that he WOULDNT. I don’t think we can say he “couldn’t” or “cannot” lie or declare someone guilty or not guilty at the same time. He COULD change his mind on these matters. He can re-write the Bible and erase al our memories as to the previous version if he wanted. But…from what he has revealed to us, we can confidently say he won’t do that.

This is the Islamic view of God and it is wrong. God is bounded by his own rationality. He cannot lie. He cannot deceive.

Morality is bounded into the fabric of the universe and it itself a reflection of God. Therefore God cannot decide tomorrow that murder is good. The natural law is based on the goodness of God, not what God arbitrarily decides is Good.