Would God condemn the soul of an atheist who died in grave sin but otherwise had an upright heart?

[Gorgias]

So, they get baptism of desire… In other words, upon death they enter into the Church.

No, that’s not a “baptism of desire”. Rather, it’s God extending salvific grace to a person, upon their death, out of His mercy.

It makes no sense to say “outside the church there is no salvation… Unless you’re outside the church.”

You just can’t give up the mistaken idea that there’s a personal pronoun in extra ecclesiam nulla salus, can you? “Outside the church there is no salvation” DOES NOT ADDRESS PEOPLE. It addresses salvation. It does not point to where a person can be found; it points to where salvation can be found. In the Church. Alone.

So, a person – whether a member of the Church, or in imperfect communion with the Church, or outside the communion of the Church – still is saved through the Church, regardless of his status with respect to the Church. That’s all that EENS asserts.

You’re the one making the false assertion that it speaks of a person’s status with respect to the Church. And, in doing so, you’re misinterpreting the doctrine. That’s why our assertions seem nonsensical to you: it’s because you’re misunderstanding what EENS, and therefore, your misunderstanding doesn’t jive with the implications of the doctrine.

 

[Gorgias]

PapyrusDouay:

Well…God COULD. To say otherwise would be to say God is not all powerful, which is false. God can do what ever he wants, and make it right. However, I think based on what we know of God, and his tendency to follow the rules he created that govern nature (e.g. Logic, sin, ) I think it is safe to say that he WOULDNT. I don’t think we can say he “couldn’t” or “cannot” lie or declare someone guilty or not guilty at the same time. He COULD change his mind on these matters. He can re-write the Bible and erase al our memories as to the previous version if he wanted. But…from what he has revealed to us, we can confidently say he won’t do that.

This is the Islamic view of God and it is wrong. God is bounded by his own rationality. He cannot lie. He cannot deceive.

Morality is bounded into the fabric of the universe and it itself a reflection of God. Therefore God cannot decide tomorrow that murder is good. The natural law is based on the goodness of God, not what God arbitrarily decides is Good.

This!

If God were to do something evil and simply call it ‘good’, then He would be contradicting His very nature: God is all-good; not simply by His ‘definition’, but by the truth of what ‘good’ means. @PapyrusDouay, you’re conflating ‘license’ with ‘omnipotence’. God is all-powerful, but that does not mean that He contradicts His own nature.

 

[whyeyeman]

Ok. I was wrong.

 

[PJM]

Not quite,

After death we can NO-LONGER into the Church; only Heaven Purgatory or Hell; but you’re point is valid: it is through the MERITS of Jesus THROUGH His One True Faith & Church that this is even a remote possibility for those outside Her Embrace in their lifetimes.

I’m not fully grasping your point. SORRY

So, they get baptism of desire… In other words, upon death they enter into the Church.

It makes no sense to say “outside the church there is no salvation… Unless you’re outside the church.”

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[PapyrusDouay]

This is the Islamic view of God and it is wrong. God is bounded by his own rationality. He cannot lie. He cannot deceive.

Morality is bounded into the fabric of the universe and it itself a reflection of God. Therefore God cannot decide tomorrow that murder is good. The natural law is based on the goodness of God, not what God arbitrarily decides is Good.

You missed my point entirely.

 

[PapyrusDouay]

@PapyrusDouay, you’re conflating ‘license’ with ‘omnipotence’. God is all-powerful, but that does not mean that He contradicts His own nature
[/quote

I could very well be, thanks

 

[whyeyeman]

No I didn’t. Why do you think God is called “He who can neither deceive nor be deceived”?