Would I be welcome here.... IF?

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Rattivore:
As a former seperated (sic) brother and now a priest I can say that my previous religious practice led me eventually to the fullness of faith. God’s grace was at work in my sunday (sic) school teachers and ministers. I learned the scriptures and began to desire to know more. I learned to love the truth and to follow wherever it led. It led me to Catholicism. The grace of my valid baptism was working in me to bring me into unity. So while it may not have been the whole truth there was enough there to get me moving in the right direction. All of it was anchored in the faith which they had split from centuries ago. Now I am in the Church of my ancestors and am very grateful. Don’t discount the Holy Spirit’s ability to work with whatever is available.
People will always convert to the church (Deo gratias) but *unitatis redintegratio *doesn’t say that protestant churches are means to conversion but means of salvation. If a Sunday-school teacher tells his pupils that there are only two sacraments, is the holy Ghost working through him? Surely, people only come to salvation despite false religions rather than because of them. If I were to found the church of Danon (God forbid) and used the bible, would I be a means to salvation? Perdition, rather.
 
Welcome to the church of Danon.

We have six sacraments and believe in commandments one to six, eight (with local variations) and 10. We have eucharistic services and believe that, while the wine transubstantiates, the bread does not. We ban female acolytes but allow divorce in cases of adultery or persistent dental abscess.

We accept the Catholic canon of scripture except for *Mark *3:1 to 4:8 and Judith. Our clergy wear birettas, waxed moustaches and red socks. We fast on alternate Thursdays of Christmastide. We believe in a di-une God, with a father and a spirit. We believe in our Lord as a good man but not as God incarnate. We nevertheless call ourselves Christian and baptise.

We hereby claim separated brethren status, recognition as a means of salvation and acknowledgement that God works through our services.
 
Paul Danon:
I am sure you do not mean to be uncharitable and I am so grateful for your courtesy.

However, separated brethren appear not to need to worry. Their churches are means of salvation and the holy Ghost works through their services, according to Vatican II. Why, then, do people who accept Vatican II object to our dissent from it?
I suppose it’s because you, as a catholic, should know better, whereas a protestant probably suffers from invincible ignorance. This is only a supposition and not a definitive statement, since I’m not capable of reading people’s minds.
 
Paul Danon said:
Welcome to the church of Danon.

We have six sacraments and believe in commandments one to six, eight (with local variations) and 10. We have eucharistic services and believe that, while the wine transubstantiates, the bread does not. We ban female acolytes but allow divorce in cases of adultery or persistent dental abscess.

We accept the Catholic canon of scripture except for *Mark *3:1 to 4:8 and Judith. Our clergy wear birettas, waxed moustaches and red socks. We fast on alternate Thursdays of Christmastide. We believe in a di-une God, with a father and a spirit. We believe in our Lord as a good man but not as God incarnate. We nevertheless call ourselves Christian and baptise.

We hereby claim separated brethren status, recognition as a means of salvation and acknowledgement that God works through our services.

:eek:
 
Theologians such as St. Antoninius, St. Alphonsus Liguori and St. Bellarmine amongst others have taught that a heretic cannot be a valid pope. “If however, God were to permit a pope to become a notoriously and contumacious heretic he would by such fact cease to be pope, and the apostolic chair would be vacant.” – St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church: Verita bella Fede. Pt. iii, Ch.viii, 9-10.

This in itself is one way of supporting that it is illegal for any Catholic to defect from the Faith and still hold office.
Sedevacantists do not say they are deposing a Pope but merely saying that the Church has already done this.
How else can the Holy Ghost protect the Church from error and not promulgat heresy If an officeholder defects ?
You accuse me of not answering your questions when you have been given several links that will answer them in detail.I am acussing you of dismissing the opinions of distinguished doctors and theologians such as those quoted above and say that this is unacceptable. How dare you think your opinions can outweigh these Saints and Doctors especially when Canon law and papal documents support what they say. The church safeguards her indefectibilty by these measures and has a history of expelling error in order to do so.

Catholics were always advised to take the safest course. To go against the almost unanimous teachings of the Catholic Church against Papal documents including Bulls and Canon law would be sheer impudence to say the least!

“Moreover , if anyone were …to worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”
When reading this quote from St Thomas Aquinas, I find it hard to dismiss the actions of JP2. It amost seems as if he has deliberately gone out of his way to meet the criteria St. Thomas puts forward to identify an apostate! His actions at Assisi being just one example.
As most of us know, St.Thomas Aquinas’ books have been distinguished and raised to the altar, he is a canonised Saint and Doctor of the Church. We are not free to dismiss his words which tell us that Ecumenism is apostacy.
The question must be asked, “Has the Pope promoted ecumenism?”
In all honesty I would have to answer that “yes” he has - not only publicly but notoriously and it has been going on for decades.
Yes it is ugly and yes it does push people out of their comfort zones. So do many other things but we have to deal with them.
In conclusion, let it not be said that the sedevacantist rejects the papacy, the primacy, or the Catholic Church. On the contrary it is because of his belief in the papacy, the primacy, the infallibility and the indefectibility of the Catholic Church that he rejects John Paul II and his Conciliar Church.
For the sedevacantist, the Catholic Church cannot and has not failed. The great apostasy predicted by St. Paul in his Epistle to the Thessalonians has taken place:
“Let no one deceive you in any way, for the day of the Lord will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sits in the temple of God and gives himself out as if he were God… And now you know what restrains him, that he may be revealed in his proper time. For the mystery of iniquity is already at work; provided only that he who is at present restraining it, does still restrain, until he is gotten out of the way. And then the wicked one will be revealed…” (2 Thess. 2:3-8).
Who is this one “who is at present restraining it… until he is gotten out of the way. And then the wicked one will be revealed”? Perhaps Pope Leo XIII has the answer in his Motu Proprio of September 25, 1888, when he wrote in his invocation to St. Michael:
“These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where has been set up the See of the most holy Peter and the Chair of Truth for the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.”

All the answers to your questions regarding the Magisterium are easily obtainable.
As the numbers of Sedevacantists continues to grow, so too does the amount of information available. All the answers are there, you will find them if you want to.
If you read them and still have a problem then it is just that - YOUR PROBLEM!
If you are happy with the way things are then, good luck to you. However please realise that many of us are no longer content to accept a “pope” who acts contrary to Catholic teaching…

PS. Good news for all you Sedes out there. Mario Derksen of www.cathinsight.com has recently announced that he too has become a sedevacantist.
 
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theMutant:
So, what you’re saying is that all those Native Americans, and anyone else who died after the Church was established but before the faith was brought to their part of the world went straight to Hell, no exceptions, no matter how good they were? Even if they obeyed the natural law God wrote upon their hearts completely? You are taking the teaching out of context for it was intended to judge the ability of other religions to save people apart from the Church; not to judge individuals.
No, the teachings I posted earlier were not taken out of context. Vatican I teaches that we are to accept the Church teachings in the same manner as we receive them. That means, we accept the literal interpretation. If the Church says we must look at passage in Scripture figuratively, we must. Heretics get people off the tracks by giving new meaning to teaching we have already received. So, if the Church says that Jews and Muslims are outside of the only Church which is the means of salvation, I must believe that.

Also, it is a new revelation that you have shared. All revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle (de fide). Vatican I also teaches the pope when exercising the charism of infallibility does not introduce new doctrine, but makes clearer the teaching we already have.
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theMutant:
I have found several references that Pope Pius IX wrote an Allocution on 9 December, 1854 stating, “It must be regarded as true that he who does not know the true religion is guiltless in the sight of God so far as his ignorance is invincible. Who would presume to fix the limits of such ignorance, amid the infinite variety and difference of peoples, countries, and mentalities, and amid so many other circumstances? When we are free from the limitations of the body and see God as he is, then we shall see how closely and beautifully God’s mercy and justice are conjoined.”
This gets misinterpreted so many times in other forums I’ve been on. Invincible ignorance does not condemn people, that is true, but it does not save anyone either. St. Thomas Aquinas mentions this in one of his writings (I will have to look this up and share later), and Pope Pius IX himself in all of his encyclicals asserts that there is absolutely no salvation outside the Church.

Unbaptized infants will not be saved because they still have original sin, which must be removed via Baptism. That is the best case of invincible ignorance as we can get.
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theMutant:
Once again, New Crusader, you are contradicting papal teaching.
Nope. I’m merely straightening out what others have twisted around.
 
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SocaliCatholic:
You are assuming it is objectively valid he is not a pope!

If 3 people claim to be a pope at the same time, the layman can read all the church documents he wants, but he must leave it to the authority in the church who is the valid pope

This would imply that **before ** the schism…who has the **final authority ** from Christ?
What you ask here is already answered by the link I gave you that you were supposed to have gone and read from “Liberalism is a Sin”. We can morally judge a conclusion and act upon it, in lieu of a higher authority that we are confident will judge the same when the time comes. That is the way it has always been…as the chapter of the book says.

St. Athanasius judged that the Arians were heretics, and he fully acted upon his moral judgment even before the Church Herself made the final judgment later. Catholics of any age, faced with heretics, did the same.

Furthermore, when there were historically 3 men all claiming to be popes for many years (up until 1417), the people did make judgments as to who the true pope was. There were Saints who even made different conclusions. They made judgments and followed them, all in lieu of a later higher final judgment. Some people on each side likely called the people on the other side “schismatics”, but the Church, the highest authority, later said that nobody was a schismatic in those circumstances. They loosely refer to those times often as “the Great Schism” or the “Western Schism”, but the books admit it was not truly a schism, but the debacle did cause a lot of problems as if it were. The cause of the problem were those who wrongly claimed to be pope, NOT the people who judged the situation correctly.

The cause of the trouble today are those heretics who are masquerading as Catholic authorities and fooling people into believing so.

JLC
 
Paul Danon:
People will always convert to the church (Deo gratias) but *unitatis redintegratio *doesn’t say that protestant churches are means to conversion but means of salvation. If a Sunday-school teacher tells his pupils that there are only two sacraments, is the holy Ghost working through him? Surely, people only come to salvation despite false religions rather than because of them. If I were to found the church of Danon (God forbid) and used the bible, would I be a means to salvation? Perdition, rather.
I am a Protestant. I have a very deep relationship with the one true God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I became a Christian not in a vacuum or in spite of all the things that happened in my life or where/how I was born and raised (Bucks., England) but by God working through them. Similarly, our Lord works through Protestantism and any other religion to bring people to know Jesus, the one true Way, the Truth and the Life, otherwise what? Our life is meaningless? At all stages and points of life our Lord is drawing us to him. Is this simply a spiritual action that would happen in a bubble? Are all tangible, emotional, sensual and even non-Catholic spiritual experiences irrelevant and meaningless for salvation, with God moving to draw us to Him IN SPITE OF THEM. You don’t think God moves in and through anything he wants to draw us because He loves us so much He sent His only Son to die for us while we were yet sinners?

You think that in spite of my faith in Jesus, the total change in my thinking and habits and desires since I surrendered my life to God through Jesus Christ, His acknowledgement of and love for me, the very deep relationship He has with me (that disturb you, me using such terms? He is my Abba too.), you think that I will be going to Hell? That His love for me is not enough to open up Heaven for me, one who proclaims His Son as God, Lord and Saviour and who walks, lives, breathes only because of our Lord. It is only His grace that allows any of us to stay alive each day, to experience joy and love, shelter, kindness, health, children…all good gifts come from God. Is that not His grace?How not? His sparing me AIDS when I should have contracted it BIG TIME; His sparing my non-Christian life and blessing me with Christians to draw me to Him through a self-help group for women who had had abortions and hated themselves; His helping me to see the true meaning of my life and my purpose through all the very difficult (not all self-imposed) episodes in my life? This is not His grace working outside the Catholic Church for my salvation? This is His Spirit moving only* in * spite of and not* through * non-Catholic experience and religion?

I am one of those then to whom the Lord shall say, ‘go away from me I do not know you?’. So what was all that about then - my Christian life?

Oh and I CAN think of worse things to be than Protestant even though you say “that is the last thing we would want to be”. Thinking, thinking, thinking…YEP! I CAN!
 
Queen of Sheeba:
The great apostasy predicted by St. Paul in his Epistle to the Thessalonians has taken place:
“Let no one deceive you in any way, for the day of the Lord will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sits in the temple of God and gives himself out as if he were God… And now you know what restrains him, that he may be revealed in his proper time. For the mystery of iniquity is already at work; provided only that he who is at present restraining it, does still restrain, until he is gotten out of the way. And then the wicked one will be revealed…” (2 Thess. 2:3-8).
Don’t be daft! When did Pope John Paul II ever set himself above God? Don’t tell me, He is the Anti-Christ, this Son of Perdition! Oh, and he’s got 666 on the back of his forehead and at night his head turns 360 degrees, spewing green gunk. Of course his actions just prove what a bad, bad man he is don’t they! Reading this biblical quote makes me laugh, really, considering its true context.
Instead Pope John Paul II’s actions and words have reached across all cultural divides to draw people from all tongues and tribes to Jesus, just as he and we have been commissiond by Jesus. He is not a doctor trying to fix the healthy but trying to help the sick. He is not preaching solely to the converted but, to mix the metaphors, is leaving behind the 99 who are safe to get the one who is lost. So he speaks to Jews and Muslims; YEEHAH!
Since when has John Paul II dishonoured the Lord Jesus Christ or preached anything other than Him being the Way the Truth and The life? No, he hasn’t. Rather he has brought many of us closer to the Catholic Church, closer to Jesus. Sometimes people are so stuck on the minutiae that they fail to see the bigger picture.
Having looked through most of this thread, all I see is the Sedavacantists holding firmly to their view, and those who hold to Vatican II and that the Pope is
John Paul II sticking firmly to theirs. Personally (as if you can’t tell) I am all out for Pope John Paul II, being one of the many who is soon to become part of the ever-growing Catholic Church and yet I know Sedavacantists will undoubtedly come up with a ‘good’ answer to my comments because you have profound beliefs. Well, just like most of you Sedavacantists who believe they have the true Truth (!) so do I, so I’m simply not going to spend anymore time on it.

May God bless us and have mercy on us all: We need it!
 
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Elizabeth:
I am a Protestant. I have a very deep relationship with the one true God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I became a Christian not in a vacuum or in spite of all the things that happened in my life or where/how I was born and raised (Bucks., England) but by God working through them. Similarly, our Lord works through Protestantism and any other religion to bring people to know Jesus, the one true Way, the Truth and the Life, otherwise what? Our life is meaningless? At all stages and points of life our Lord is drawing us to him. Is this simply a spiritual action that would happen in a bubble? Are all tangible, emotional, sensual and even non-Catholic spiritual experiences irrelevant and meaningless for salvation, with God moving to draw us to Him IN SPITE OF THEM. You don’t think God moves in and through anything he wants to draw us because He loves us so much He sent His only Son to die for us while we were yet sinners?

You think that in spite of my faith in Jesus, the total change in my thinking and habits and desires since I surrendered my life to God through Jesus Christ, His acknowledgement of and love for me, the very deep relationship He has with me (that disturb you, me using such terms? He is my Abba too.), you think that I will be going to Hell? That His love for me is not enough to open up Heaven for me, one who proclaims His Son as God, Lord and Saviour and who walks, lives, breathes only because of our Lord. It is only His grace that allows any of us to stay alive each day, to experience joy and love, shelter, kindness, health, children…all good gifts come from God. Is that not His grace?How not? His sparing me AIDS when I should have contracted it BIG TIME; His sparing my non-Christian life and blessing me with Christians to draw me to Him through a self-help group for women who had had abortions and hated themselves; His helping me to see the true meaning of my life and my purpose through all the very difficult (not all self-imposed) episodes in my life? This is not His grace working outside the Catholic Church for my salvation? This is His Spirit moving only* in * spite of and not* through * non-Catholic experience and religion?

I am one of those then to whom the Lord shall say, ‘go away from me I do not know you?’. So what was all that about then - my Christian life?

Oh and I CAN think of worse things to be than Protestant even though you say “that is the last thing we would want to be”. Thinking, thinking, thinking…YEP! I CAN!
Elizabeth,

Unfortunately you jumped right into the middle of a heated debate between Catholics and sedevacantists, and Paul Dannon is a sedevacantist.

Please do not confuse sedevacantist with offical Catholic belief. He is speaking from a sedevacantist perspective, and is not the offical teaching of the Catholic Church.

I looked up the offical teaching of the Church for you (sedevacantist will not like this quote from the Catechism, the do not adhere to Vatican II)

**Catechism of the Catholic Church ** states: “Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized” (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).
 
Myrna, may I extend my warm welcome to you at this board.

This is what we’re all here for… discussion and sharing. Even though we may disagree with each other, it’s a safe place to chat.
The Barrister:
I’m not a sedevacantist.

I just want to know how to pronounce it. 😃
Lemme guess…

SE (a short “e”) - dah - va - CANT - ist

Myrna – Is that right?
 
SocaliCatholic said:
Elizabeth,

Unfortunately you jumped right into the middle of a heated debate between Catholics and sedevacantists, and Paul Dannon is a sedevacantist.

Please do not confuse sedevacantist with offical Catholic belief. He is speaking from a sedevacantist perspective, and is not the offical teaching of the Catholic Church.

I looked up the offical teaching of the Church for you (sedevacantist will not like this quote from the Catechism, the do not adhere to Vatican II)

**Catechism of the Catholic Church ** states: “Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized” (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

Thankyou very much. I do realise the nature of the debate and I was taking Paul and others to task on their interpretation of the Catechism and the Bible and Church teachings (for it seems that even Church teachings can be interpreted different ways when set in conjunction with various other views and teachings and blah blah blah…).

I am grateful for the quote from the Catechism which I have read before. I also know God quite well for a human!! Though not as well as many, I admit, and I get the impression that He loves me one heck of a lot, that mercy triumphs over judgement and that with my faith in His Son Jesus Christ lived out through my lifetime, I might just scrape through the gates (when no-one is looking of course!!).

God bless you and thankyou, again, very much! 🙂
 
Carrie Andrews:
Bernie,
Did you truely know who you were leaving behind when you left the Catholic church? If you think so, what are you doing here? Whistling Dixie?
What I left behind was a lot of man-made rules passed off as if they were from God. I’m not familar with the Dixie song…

Matthew 15:6
he is not to 'honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 15 In context: Matthew 15:5-7)

Mark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
(Whole Chapter: Mark 7 In context: Mark 7:12-14)

See: biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&language=english&searchpage=0&search=tradition+nullify&version=NIV

Bernie
www.FreeGoodNews.com
 
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bernie:
What I left behind was a lot of man-made rules passed off as if they were from God. I’m not familar with the Dixie song…

Matthew 15:6
he is not to 'honor his father with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 15 In context: Matthew 15:5-7)

Mark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
(Whole Chapter: Mark 7 In context: Mark 7:12-14)

See: biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?SearchType=AND&language=english&searchpage=0&search=tradition+nullify&version=NIV

Bernie
www.FreeGoodNews.com
Don’t be an ignorant and read the context

Jesus was condemning the corupt practice of “Kurban.” This is where a man devote part of his property to the temple. Although the ownership is gone, the man could still used the property. This way he doesn’t have to sell any property to support his elderly parents. Jesus really condemned this by reminding them about the 4th law.

Read all about it at Matthew 15:3-9

It was a CORRUPT tradition of men.

But did Jesus condemn CORRECT Tradition? NO!!!

The Pharisee is more like the Catholic because they adhere to Tradition and Scripture. The Saducce is the Sola Scripturist of the day. Yet who did Jesus told to follows? THE PHARISEE’S!!! Read em here Matthew 23:1-3.
 
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Elizabeth:
Having looked through most of this thread, all I see is the Sedavacantists holding firmly to their view, and those who hold to Vatican II and that the Pope is John Paul II sticking firmly to theirs. Personally (as if you can’t tell) I am all out for Pope John Paul II, being one of the many who is soon to become part of the ever-growing Catholic Church and yet I know Sedavacantists will undoubtedly come up with a ‘good’ answer to my comments because you have profound beliefs. Well, just like most of you Sedavacantists who believe they have the true Truth (!) so do I, so I’m simply not going to spend anymore time on it.

May God bless us and have mercy on us all: We need it!
Very well put, Elizabeth.

Many have continued to put in work responding to posts in the good faith that the sedevacantists are open to a fruitful discussion.

I can feel your frustration, however remember that many of our questions have gone unanswered, altough sedevacantists claim they have. The reason for this is simply that they have tended to divert from questions on authority becuase that is where the error resides.

Further, the error in their logic is simply this: If, at any point in time, authority resides within the Catholic Chruch from Christ himself, they have not explained the phenomena as to how that authority is transerred to the layman, so as to render a pope invalid as a matter of personal opinion. Any valid discernment of who is a valid Pope must occur within the person with the authority to do so.

I too, expect more diversion from this topic from the sedevacantists, and anticipate further quotes from saints, chruch doctors, bishops ect. ect. However there has been NO evidence presented of a Church document just before or during the Vatican II council that has rendered the current pope, John Paul II invalid. They claim that the Vatican II council was invalid, however there is no direct historical evidence that it in fact was invalid. The best they can do is string together various quotaions to form a conspiracy theory. I know how this strategy works, I have many friends who latch on to various conspiracy theories. The main error resides with the creator of the schism, which in this case the error would be their sedevaticanst pope, or sedevacantist magesterium, a self-proclaimed authority. That authority within the sedevacantist position is self-refuting becuase there must be an ultimate authority within the sedevanantist Church or else we could join their church and schism another sedevacantist church from sedevacantism, the pratice of schism limited only to anyone who interprets anything by their own authority, without any final binding authority such as the pope. This is simillar to the self-refuting claim that there is no Truth, for in saying so, that would imply that it was a Truth that there is no Truth, thus refuting itself. The only difference being that they claim the pope is not an authority, but even if that were the case, there would have to be a higher authority that could make that claim. For to claim an authority a non-authority can only come from a higher authority, not a lower authority, such as a layman. e.g. Jesus Christ, the final authority, created a visible authority Kephas(Peter) on earth so man would not end up in division, but in unity, which can only be achieve through a final binding authority, the pope. Beliefs based on self-refuting positions are possible to detect, but it takes a few doses of the virtue of humility, which I belive in good faith that the sedevacantists are hungry for Truth, and not speaking their beliefs with only out of false pride, but with an ear to hear our carefully thought out responses.
 
Paul Danon:
People will always convert to the church (Deo gratias) but *unitatis redintegratio *doesn’t say that protestant churches are means to conversion but means of salvation.
OK so one more remark on the subject!

If you agree here that Protestant Churches are a means to salvation, how NOT to conversion if you believe that it is only the Catholic Church in which is found salvation???

Furthermore, does unitatis redintegratio say outright that protestant churches are NOT a means to conversion?

I’m with Rattivore on this one. For 14 years I have been a non-Catholic Christian. God in His grace has used all that I have come to know of Him to date to draw me into the Catholic Church. The non-Catholic Christian Church is not on the opposite side of a ravine. It has been a stepping stone. Have you ever been a non-Catholic Christian? Do you know the riches of God’s love and grace and outpouring of Truth that a person can receive as a non-Catholic Christian? Do you know that the God a non-Catholic Christian sees on coming into the Catholic Christian Church is the same God - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit who is worshipped and glorified in non-Catholic Christian churches? Is your knowledge of the latter from experience or simply head knowledge and what you have learnt in books?

I am not yet Catholic. If I am of a different faith in your view, must I break with the God I know already as a non-Catholic Christian - the one who is bringing me to salvation - as I ‘convert’ to Catholicism?** No**:We who are ‘converting’ to the Catholic Church from the non-Catholic Church do so because we recognise the fulness of the Faith we are already living.

Conversion is a process. I am doing it as a Protestant. How then if not through the Protestant Church? It is NOT a process apart from the Protestant Church and all I know as a Protestant.

Well, I think I have made the point.

Goodnight. :yawn:
 
Beng, your on this thread??? Glad to see you!

Can you work the same miracles here like you did on the detecting fake tounges thread! 👍
 
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SocaliCatholic:
However there has been NO evidence presented of a Church document just before or during the Vatican II council that has rendered the current pope, John Paul II invalid. They claim that the Vatican II council was invalid, however there is no direct historical evidence that it in fact was invalid. The best they can do is string together various quotaions to form a conspiracy theory. I know how this strategy works, I have many friends who latch on to various conspiracy theories.

Seems to me that perhaps you have been hanging around these friends too much!

Regarding “authority” no sede claims any authority to bind or impose our sede convictions onto another. We are simply calling a spade a spade, we have provided you ample proof that we have this right. We hope and pray that as many people as possible will be able to see that those usurpers in Rome (and their minions), do not profess the one, same True Faith that Christ through The Catholic Church have consistently taught for centuries and consequently cannot be Catholic. We pray for their return to the Faith. And we pray that not too many souls will be led astray by their errors. We await a future authoritative declaration of this and meanwhile, we do exactly what the Catholic Church teaches we should do, we “avoid the heretic.” Please forgive us for our outspokenness on this subject but when it comes to the purity of our Faith and the scandal caused to trusting souls, we believe a lot is at stake here.
Have any of you actually read Pope Pius X’s encyclical “Pascendi” thoroughly? …well worth a read!
 
SCHMUCK.

Regarding that excellent book by the Redecki Fathers.
It could most likely be obtained by contacting Fr. F. Radecki through his parish website:
cmri.org/frfranciscoparish.html

Nice to meet you, even if it is in this lions den !
Though I must say, this is fairly mild compared to some!
 
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