Would I be welcome here.... IF?

[myrna]

Elizabeth … <<<<So just what did John Paul II do that was so wrong?>>>>>

Your own believers (those following the new ordor (novus ordo) have posted over and over on this new board what he has done that is wrong, Sedevacantist just takes the same wrongs into a new level, we say if he is guilty he can not be a True Pope.

Just read the notes and complaints here and see for yourself the problems.

You can love JPII all you want, just don’t lose the Faith.

Remember this however, a pope can never contradict a past pope, and you might want to start by looking up what the heresy of “indifferentism” means, to see one of many contradictions.
But then it only takes one contradiction to make one wonder.

Study up!

Our Lord said, “Watch and Pray.” Watch for what? Maybe wolves in sheeps clothing.

 

[Annunciata]

Elizabeth:

So just what did John Paul II do that was so wrong?

Luther rejected the Church when it didn’t fit his idea of what was really of the one True God.

Now sedevacantists reject a Pope because he doesn’t fit the idea of what is really of the one True Church.

Can you really have it both ways??

I am new at this game but hey, it’s obvious to me that either you believe and accept what the Church and God have ordained as a Catholic or you don’t. Either the chosen Pope speaks infallibly or there is no Papacy. Why would I be going through such a tough journey to absorb all the doctrines and teachings of the Church if I could just pick and choose or throw out what I want if it doesn’t seem to fit my idea of what the Church should be! And you are throwing out THE POPE??? That’s like lopping of the (earthly) head! Hence, and logically, nothing is sacred! Get rid of what you like! The Papacy is pivotal and who are you and I to determine who should take Peter’s Chair? There can be NO validity now for anything Catholic that sedevacantists argue for whilst still claiming to be Catholic. Christian, yes; Catholic no.

I would not even be considering the Catholic Church if it were pick and choose; that’s the point. It 'ain’t!

You are right that the Gates of Hell HAVE not prevailed against the Church because here she is in all her glory with John Paul II as our Holy Father.

The Pope is the world’s greatest disciple and missionary it seems to me, maintaining the boundaries of Christ’s teaching and reaching out with the same in LOVE. All he does and stands for is totally in keeping with Christ’s own mission and the one He has called us to. God bless the Pope!! and may God’s grace and blessing abound to you too Myrna.

Elizabeth, I totally agree w/ you! Myrna I’ll keep you in my prayers…and I do extend my sincere welcome.

 

[Kotton]

Hello Myma;

myrna:

Your own believers (those following the new ordor (novus ordo) have posted over and over on this new board what he has done that is wrong, Sedevacantist just takes the same wrongs into a new level, we say if he is guilty he can not be a True Pope.

Yes, I;ve seen posters critize the ‘faults’ of JPII. Are they wrong in the sense of teaching incorrect doctrine? I’ve seen the list from sedevacantist’s claiming they contradict previous popes and doctrine of the Church, so they do take it to new level. Having read these supposed ‘contradictions’, and finding them worded differently, but not teaching anything new, my view is JPII is the TRUE Pope.

Just read the notes and complaints here and see for yourself the problems.

You can love JPII all you want, just don’t lose the Faith.

I find most of the problems exist in the minds of critics, although some actions may be questioned. These can easily be changed, as they are not a matter of defined dogma. No one is losing FAITH that I see by recognizing JPII is the Pope and seeing many good quaities in his work.

Remember this however, a pope can never contradict a past pope, and you might want to start by looking up what the heresy of “indifferentism” means, to see one of many contradictions.
But then it only takes one contradiction to make one wonder.

I believe this was all addressed above, and since NO contradiction appeared, the point is irrelevant.

Study up!

Our Lord said, “Watch and Pray.” Watch for what? Maybe wolves in sheeps clothing.

OK. Of course. Always be on watch, but don’t find wolves where none exist. And just for the record so you don’t think I’m a young post-V2 person, I’ve been in this world and Church for a few years longer than you.

Kotton

 

[walter]

I refer to my earlier post where I welcomed Myrna.
I realized along with others that I have no right to welcome or not to welcome anybody. That is Karl’s position.
Although I do not agree with Myrna I do have to confess that I am torn between the Traditional movement (which does not reject the present Pope as do the sedevacantists) and the new mass brought in by Vatican ll.
It disturbs me though as a convert why the two sides can’t get together. It is bad enough fighting with our protestand bretheren ( I hope that I am allowed to use bretheren
I was brought into the Catholic church by a certain gentleman of the traditional movement - one who used to be a part of the Catholic Answers team - I believe. So possibly my position on this site is also uncertain.
in Christ

 

[theMutant]

myrna:

After five years of wondering what was happening to the Catholic church, and begging Our Lady for my children’s salvation, (to lead them to her Son) I was compelled to hear a lecture that was advertised in our local newspaper. The lecture explained the crisis and since then (22 years now) I have been with C.M.R.I.
…
As I stated before I love the Catholic religion, it is the only religion that makes logical sense to me. … even though the Modernist have tried to destroy the Faith the last 40 years it is still existing even among many of those who were born after Vatican II.

Myrna,

Welcome and peace!

I have had a few discussions with others who adhere to the SSPX group. They maintain that since Vatican II appears to have led the faithful into error, it must not have been the work of the Holy Spirit. I don’t know if this is similar to your own views but I find it very inconsistent.

To begin with, there have been periods of history where legitimate Catholic practices still accepted by SSPX have led people into error. Novenas, rosaries, and statues have all been used in superstitious or even idolatrous ways. When I asked the people of the SSPX group to show where in the Council documents a false teaching was presented, I was albe to show how the same teaching was present in the Church prior to the council. They had no answer to this.

As far as the current state of the Church, I think that a thorough examination of history will show that the kinds of errors that appear to be running rampant through the Church since the council have been matched (possibly even excelled) in times past. Arianism is a good example. There have been time when over half the Church fell into heresy. It took the Church time to get to the point where the problems could be corrected back then, and the same is true today. If sedevacantus groups are consistent, they would maintain that the seat was empty back then. But if that were the case, apostolic succession would be broken! SSPX couldn’t answer this objection either.

Christ promised that the gates of Hell would never overcome the Church. This doesn’t mean that the Church will never be in turmoil, only that the Church will ultimately prevail. The history of the Church shows this has always been the case. I am thankful for the Council because it has fully revealed the problems that exist in the Church; problems that existed BEFORE the Council. However, the erroneous views have not been declared to be Catholic teaching, and no such declaration will come from Rome.

Remember that the holiness of the Church is not based on the holiness of its members, even the bishops. The Church could be filled with sinful bishops all they way up to the pope himself and the Church would still prevail over evil, just as she has done in the past. For our part, we must remain faithful and pray.

I was born in 1965 and my only memories of the Church are after the Council and after the Mass was changed. I was fortunate enough to experience a traditional Latin Mass while in my late twenties and fell in love with it immediately. In my opinion, the current rite is completely orthodox but completely fails to meet the stated objective of changing it; to bring the faithful to a more complete participation. I believe that what is often referred to as “a reform of the reform” is coming, and then we can watch the heterodox “Catholics” scream while their errores are finally expunged from the Church.

David W. Cooney

 

[Smack_Daddy]

Its’s simple, really. Sedevancatist have lost their faith. They don’t really believe in the words of Jesus:

And I tell you that you are Peter, 16:18 Peter means rock.] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades 16:18 Or hell] will not overcome it.

Think about it. Seds would have us believe that the Novus Ordo is an invalid mass, that the Holy Eucharist we receive is invalid. Some Seds even believe that those who attend a Novus Ordo mass commit mortal sin. So much for the words of Jesus, huh.

Seds are ignorant of history. They would have us believe that the Latin mass has ALWAYS been THE rite of the Church. Truth is that almost all Popes have made some changes to the externals of the mass while not effecting the core - Transubstantiation. The Novus Ordo is just an extrem example of the externals being changed.

Seds would have us believe that they and only they are the true church and all the rest of us are being led to hell with the Pope leading the way.

The Sedevancatist are really nothing more that a protestan sect with a little Catholicism sprinkled in for flavor.

Please, everyone don’t believe this nonsense. While myrna might be a nice lady, she and all other Seds have lost the faith.

Go to the links below a read some great articles that blow this silliness out of the water.

tcrnews2.com/integrism.html
members.lycos.co.uk/jloughnan/index.htm

 

[myrna]

Thank you for your kindness from most here and your frankness, I realize how hard this is for some of you, but I am not asking anyone to accept my position. I only answered the questions put to me.

This is why I started here with this thread, wanting to see how this would go and I wanted to share the Faith because believe me when you lose the Faith you will lose your soul.

One poster here accused me of losing my Faith, but God will be the judge of that not the poster. Just as I have not judged anyone here it would be nice to know that those who claim to believe in JPII would take his advise of love and tolerance with his ecumenism, and the “charity” that is suppose to come with it; for some I suppose this tolerance stops at the door of a Traditionalist.

 

[ralphinal]

Personally, I do not see how she has lost her faith. In a way, she is too strong in faith. I hope you choose to stay on the site with us and help us understand many things and not just about your position, but about the faith in general.

 

[walter]

As smack daddy said and I also in my earlier post - sedevacantists are just another protestant sect although I said denomination. Sect is more correct.
walter

 

[ralphinal]

I am not ready to go so far as to say that they are protestant. What about Eastern Orthodox or Russian Orthodox who do not recognize the primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

 

[NM2]

To be perfectly honest, I just don’t get it. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I had never even heard of sedevacantists until recently, and the possibility of such a belief had never even crossed my mind. :ehh:

 

[myrna]

ralphinal:

I am not ready to go so far as to say that they are protestant. What about Eastern Orthodox or Russian Orthodox who do not recognize the primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Exactly and thank you for your honesty, however a Sede does recognize the Bishop of Rome, we defend the popes and their encyclicals and often quote from them, we even have the Papal Flag in our chapels and churches.

Yet, as someone else started a thread here about the “Three Popes” we feel we are living in similiar times.

No, I won’t be leaving but I am taking a little trip over the week end therefore I will be gone for a few days. With the grace of God I hope to return and I would much rather love to share the Faith, but since I did start this thread I feel I should answer the questions here the best I could.

 

[myrna]

NM2:

To be perfectly honest, I just don’t get it. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I had never even heard of sedevacantists until recently, and the possibility of such a belief had never even crossed my mind. :ehh:

Well now you know!

We believe we are living in the Great Apostasy fortold to us in the Bible, II Thessalonians Chapter 2, verse 3; “Let no one deceive you in any way, for the day of the Lord will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sits in the temple of God and gives himself out as if he were God.”

Since Christ started or founded Our Catholic church this prophesy can only be about the Catholic church, that makes perfect sense, and since Vatican II the Church has adapted to the world in many way, “My Kingdom is not of this World.”

It is very important that you pray your daily rosary and wear your brown scapular during this crisis of Our Church. Also to heed the Fatima message which was so very important for our time. The Third Secret was to be revealed in 1960 but it was surpressed and changed because the enemy was already in power.

We believe we are close, but how close no one really knows to the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[NickFrance]

Myrna,

Could you please tell me what it would take to have Sedevancatist return to the Holy See, or be in accord with the Holy See. Would we have to go back to the Tridentine Mass? Renounce the Novus Ordo? What exactly would bring all Catholics together? And although we’ve gotten far away from the thread, and I’m not so sure it wasn’t just an ice breaker to broach this subject, your welcome here to me. A very interesting subject and one needed to discuss here by the way.

 

[myrna]

NickFrance, not to worry God will unite all those of Faith, for He truly knows His own.

I don’t know if this is a Truth or not but I remember when I was in Catholic school the nuns told us that the first Pope was named Peter and the last Pope would have the name of Peter. Funny if you think about it no pope in between ever took the name of Peter. I do believe there will be this last Pope and he will be a Catholic Pope. I don’t know if I will be here on earth to see him but I am sure that in God’s time he will come.
Sooo too the sedevacantist are awaiting for the Catholic Pope that will unite all those of the Truth Faith. Not a “pope” that will compromise the Faith in the name of Ecumenism. Then we can say, again, the Chair is no longer vacant.

 

[Pro_Iesu]

Hey there! Welcome and Peace be with you

Regarding the Peter and Peter thing-
Well lots of People say lots of things about who the last Pope or any Pope is gonna be etc. Thing is only God knows.

Apostasy is the total rejection of the Faith denouncing Christ, the Holy Spirit etc. This is not happening in the Church under JPII, rather in the secular world. The European union is debating on whether to accept talking about their christian heritage. If they don’t that would be a sign of apostasy in my opinion. SO pray for them!!!

The Pope has not changed anything in the mass in fact he’s made many clarifications about Vatican II. He has been working on teaching the truth and straightening out the messes that certain clergy/laymen have created. He still says Mass in Latin, he allows certain parishes the ability to perform the tridintine mass, if I am correct, but they need permission.

Vatican II didn’t change the mass it encourages tradition, I perosnally love the Agnus dei, Kyrie and Sanctus parts of the mass.

But God Bless and I hope we all can come back into a full unity.

 

[Lance]

I converted from Methodist to Catholic in 1972 so all I know is Vatican II. Could you tell me what it is that you disagree with? If it is that you want a Latin Mass you can find one without leaving the Church. If you could also try one of the many Eastern Rites that are in full communion with the Pope. My son-in-law is a Marionite from Lebanon and their Mass is beautiful although it is usually said in Arabic, so I did not understand much of it. They are in full communion with Rome. There seems to be enough diversity in the Catholic Church to satisfy everyone. Most of us belong to the Latin Rite but there are lots of other Rites (I think about 19). Again please educate me and tell me what you disagree with about Vatican II.

 

[myrna]

Lance, <<>>>

You hit one nail right on the head with your remark above. The Church is to be ONE in Faith, not many.

Have you ever heard of the four marks of the Church, if only one mark is missing the Church is not the same as the one Christ founded.

You might try looking up the “The Four Marks of the Church.” I could do it for you but I find it much better when people do their own research. There are many good links that explain the Four Marks of the Church; this is a good one right here… catholicism.org/pages/4marks.htm

Even the approved Rites of the Church are One in Faith, we all believe in the same thing, at least I can say that for ALL Traditionalist, we might differ as to what we think of JPII but we all have the same Faith, not so with the novus ordo, just read the notes here and see the diversity.

 

[gomer_tree]

Karl Keating:

There are other such groups. All of them are small. Some of them have elected their own popes. I wrote about one, “Pius XIII” (Fr. Lucian Pulvermacher), in my E-Letter: catholic.com/newsletters/kke_040406.asp

I’m not sure this adds anything to the discussion, but I have to mention that Pope Pius XIII hails from my hometown. We never imagined we’d have a homegrown Pope!

 

[swampfox]

Myrna

Sure wish you’d be honest with yourself and admit that you are no longer a Catholic in union with the One True Church–The fact is you are a reformationist, in other words, a Protestant. That doesn’t mean you are not welcome here.

PS You’re wrong about JPII–Any man whose faith and love and yes Catholicism virtually singlehandedly brought down communism and the Soviet Empire miraculously without a shot is filled with the Holy Spirit and is truly Christ’s representative here on Earth. I’m sure he prays for you to return too.