Would like Catholic perspective on ABC's of Salvation

[DelsonJacobs]

Since baptism is integral to the salvation experience in Catholicism instead of an outward expression of an inward experience, was the thief on the cross exempted because he didn’t get baptized and Christ told him that he would be with him in paradise that day? I realize that was probably an exception and an exception doesn’t make the rule, but I was just curious about the Catholic take on that.

The Catholic Church does not have an all-out, final, and definitive explanation for the procedure of salvation regarding the repentant thief of Luke chapter 23:39-43. While Catholicism allows for theological speculation, there is not much more to say than what the Scripture account offers. For example, the Catholic New American Bible states this on its footnote on the matter:

This episode is recounted only in this gospel. The penitent sinner receives salvation through the crucified Jesus. Jesus’ words to the penitent thief reveal Luke’s understanding that the destiny of the Christian is “to be with Jesus.”

While this is not an exhaustive representation of all that is possible in the understanding allowed by Catholic theology, it is pretty much it on what can be said in a definitive manner.

You will find that this is due to the Catholic approach to Scripture being somewhat of a reverse of Evangelicals’. Whereas doctrine must be based on Scripture for the latter (which means that each verse has some explanation, often definitive in nature), in Catholicism we understand that religion defined the spirit life of the inspired writers. Therefore texts like this one are a reflection of our anciently held beliefs, and the approach is that of finding where and how this fits in with what the Church has believed, not defining what the Christian must accept as doctrine based on this text.–For more information see “A Pastoral Statement for Catholics on Biblical Fundamentalism,” March 26, 1986, Ad Hoc Committee on Biblical Fundamentalism, NCCB(USCCB).

Also, does Catholicsm have a sacrament for when a person who is baptized as an infant experiences the faith experience described in the ABCs of Salvation listed in my post #1?

The reason I ask is that I suspect there are many Catholics (along with many Protestants too) who were baptized as infants and didn’t follow God or make a conscious choice to follow Christ in their life as they grew older. When they come to that place in their life when they do experience the occurrence listed in the ABC’s of Salvation in post #1, what do they do?

The Sacrament of Confirmation is what you are speaking of. Confirmation is regarded as the perfection of one’s Baptism, the introduction to the Rite of Confirmation explaining:

By the sacrament of Confirmation, [those already baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed.

However it should also be noted that in Eastern Churches this sacrament is offered at birth. Regardless, in both cases it is participation in the office of the apostolate or preaching the word and living a life of service that is seen as a personal acceptance. Therefore it is not an event one participates in to mark this acceptance of Christ but a change of life that must be lived everyday.

It’s an everyday way of life that Catholics see as proof that one accepts Christ as their personal Savior and not a fleeting momentary experience. This does not mean that a powerful event or experience in Christ has no meaning or merit. It all has to begin somewhere.

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks Delson and wmscott,
I agree there is more to it than just a simple formula. I suspect that ABC formula was meant as a quick guide to help remind folks about salvation and to use it help summarize it in an understandable way to the unchurched, if I had to guess.

I’d say that’s a good guess. Handy mnemonics have their place in communicating the Gospel.

A follow up question if you don’t mind:

Since baptism is integral to the salvation experience in Catholicism instead of an outward expression of an inward experience, was the thief on the cross exempted because he didn’t get baptized and Christ told him that he would be with him in paradise that day? I realize that was probably an exception and an exception doesn’t make the rule, but I was just curious about the Catholic take on that.

As others have said, the tradition of “Baptism by desire” goes way back in Church history. Further, the Church acknowledges in the Catechism that “God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments” (see CCC 1257). Baptism is what God has revealed as the means of being incorporated into His family and being washed by the blood of the Lamb. But – being God – He can operate outside of those means if He wants.

Also, does Catholicsm have a sacrament for when a person who is baptized as an infant experiences the faith experience described in the ABCs of Salvation listed in my post #1?

The reason I ask is that I suspect there are many Catholics (along with many Protestants too) who were baptized as infants and didn’t follow God or make a conscious choice to follow Christ in their life as they grew older. When they come to that place in their life when they do experience the occurrence listed in the ABC’s of Salvation in post #1, what do they do?

That would be the Sacrament of Confession (AKA Reconciliation). We all sin and fall short. Reconciliation is our spiritual reboot, taken as often as needed.

Some might say Confirmation fits the bill, but I wouldn’t. In the West, Catholics don’t get confirmed until past the age of reason (about 7 years old), but Eastern Catholics confirm babies at the time of their Baptism. Confirmation is less about us confirming our faith in an adult way than it is about being confirmed in our faith by God to be strengthened for our mission to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth.

 

[po18guy]

Thanks for elaborating, wmscott. If I understand correctly, baptism plays a key part of a person’s salvation experience in Catholicism in addition to the other things previously mentioned. It is not considered to be just an outward confession of an inward experience. I think I am beginning to understand the difference more clearly now.

From Christ and the twelve (who baptized), to Saint Paul (who baptized), to the early fathers (who baptized), for almost 2,000 years now, baptism has been the entry into the Body of Christ. This is something to ponder.

Saint John Paul II told an interviewer that he did not even remember the greatest day of his life: his baptism. The bible mentions that baptism is regeneration. It washes our sins away. It was a requirement or Christ would not have commended to the eleven to baptize.

“Rise and be baptized, each one of you” - Paul
“There is water. What is to prevent my being baptized” - Ethiopian eunuch
Paul, his sight restored, rose from the bed and was baptized. - Paul
Baptism which now saves you - Peter
The washing of regeneration - Paul

Scripture and history (Tradition) is 100% clear on this.

Only in recent times, men have mis-read Paul - ignoring the rest of the scriptures - and isolated a single verse from all of scripture. Read what Peter had to say about men twisting Paul’s words: **2 Peter 3:15-16 **

If we follow Christ, we must listen to Christ, as the voice from heaven said. “This is my beloved Son, with Whom I am well-pleased. Listen to Him”

Christ’s final instructions:

“He who believes and is baptized, will be saved” Mark 16:!6
“Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them…” Matthew 28:19

Personally, I believe that it is the evil one who has incited well-intentioned men to turn from Christ’s command to baptize. Who else would do this?

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks to all for your replies. This subject very much interests me and I appreciate the time, research, and thought you’ve put into these replies. I can tell that many of you are mature Christians who love and follow God.

This subject means a lot because I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior many years ago in a Billy Graham crusade and it was a special turning point in my life. Of course, I still had much to learn in the faith (and still do for that matter), but it was a major milestone that resulted in a big change for the better in my lifestyle that remains intact to this day.

It may not say it on the ABC salvation “formula” of my denomination’s website in post #1 regarding salvation, but I know almost all evangelicals would agree that a Christian’s life should bear the fruit of good works or else it would put into doubt the authenticity of their proclaimed salvation encounter with Christ in the first place. If an apple tree doesn’t bear apples but something else that doesn’t even resemble an apple, then it probably isn’t accurate to call it an apple tree, no?

My concern about the Catholic way of salvation – if I understand it correctly – is that if someone who was baptized as an infant gets confirmed, goes to Confession/Reconciliation but never experiences that special life-changing encounter with Christ that some refer to as being “born-again”, could they just be punching their spiritual clocks through good works and not possess the faith required for salvation? This is a rhetorical question because I truly don’t know the answer because only God can see into a person’s heart.

I believe in my heart that a sincere Catholic who does the things you mentioned regarding following the sacraments, living a godly life, confesses his sins, loves God, his family, his church, and mankind – that person sounds like he is “saved” in my book, but then again it isn’t my book that counts. It’s the Lamb’s Book of Life that really matters and God makes the decisions, not me. Thanks again to everyone. I really like CAF. You folks are pretty neat.

Thanks again for your part in helping me to better understand the Catholic faith.

 

[SteveVH]

My concern about the Catholic way of salvation – if I understand it correctly – is that if someone who was baptized as an infant gets confirmed, goes to Confession/Reconciliation but never experiences that special life-changing encounter with Christ that some refer to as being “born-again”, could they just be punching their spiritual clock through good works and not possess the faith required to be saved? This is a rhetorical question because I truly don’t know the answer.

Yes, some could just be punching their spiritual clock. But the same could be said for a member of any faith tradition. You should understand that we believe that conversion is a life-long process and salvation is not a one-time event. The sacraments are necessary in order to wash away our sins and bring us into communion with our Lord.

You must also be aware that experiencing Christ in the sacraments is an incredibly intimate experience, one that non-Catholic Christians cannot speak to. They provide that “special life-changing encounter with Christ” in a very real way. This does not mean that we do not experience Christ in other ways, but nothing can compare to reconciling with God and receiving him completely; body, blood, soul and divinity, in the Eucharist. These are all channels of grace that Christ provided in order to aid us on our journey; channels of grace that reunite us with our God.

God bless.

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks to all for your replies. This subject very much interests me and I appreciate the time, research, and thought you’ve put into these replies. I can tell that many of you are mature Christians who love and follow God.

This subject means a lot because I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior many years ago in a Billy Graham crusade and it was a special turning point in my life. Of course, I still had much to learn in the faith (and still do for that matter), but it was a major milestone that resulted in a big change for the better in my lifestyle that remains intact to this day.

It may not say it on the ABC salvation “formula” of my denomination’s website in post #1 regarding salvation, but I know almost all evangelicals would agree that a Christian’s life should bear the fruit of good works or else it would put into doubt the authenticity of their proclaimed salvation encounter with Christ in the first place. If an apple tree doesn’t bear apples but something else that doesn’t even resemble an apple, then it probably isn’t accurate to call it an apple tree, no?

My concern about the Catholic way of salvation – if I understand it correctly – is that if someone who was baptized as an infant gets confirmed, goes to Confession/Reconciliation but never experiences that special life-changing encounter with Christ that some refer to as being “born-again”, could they just be punching their spiritual clocks through good works and not possess the faith required for salvation? This is a rhetorical question because I truly don’t know the answer because only God can see into a person’s heart.

I believe in my heart that a sincere Catholic who does the things you mentioned regarding following the sacraments, living a godly life, confesses his sins, loves God, his family, his church, and mankind – that person sounds like he is “saved” in my book, but then again it isn’t my book that counts. It’s the Lamb’s Book of Life that really matters and God makes the decisions, not me. Thanks again to everyone. I really like CAF. You folks are pretty neat.

Thanks again for your part in helping me to better understand the Catholic faith.

I know you said it was a rhetorical question, but I can’t resist.

As you said, obviously, we cannot read another person’s heart. It can be hard to tell if someone is just going through the motions or if they have an authentic faith life. But it definitely is a problem. I don’t think it’s a problem unique to Catholics, but there are plenty of Catholics out there who punch their “Catholic” card without really letting it all sink in an transform their life.

If you hang out in Catholic circles at all at the present time, you hear a lot of talk from the Pope and others in the Catholic Church about the “New Evangelization.” The targets of this new evangelization are just such people who have heard, but don’t really understand.

Obviously, we are not aiming for people to approach the Catholic faith in a mechanical way (as though God was merely a divine Pez dispenser). The goal is conversion.

 

[pablope]

T

My concern about the Catholic way of salvation – if I understand it correctly – is that if someone who was baptized as an infant gets confirmed, goes to Confession/Reconciliation but never experiences that special life-changing encounter with Christ that some refer to as being “born-again”, could they just be punching their spiritual clocks through good works and not possess the faith required for salvation? This is a rhetorical question because I truly don’t know the answer because only God can see into a person’s heart.

Thanks again for your part in helping me to better understand the Catholic faith.

I think, as someone said, it is a lifelong process, not a onetime event.

I think link…newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

Read up the Purgative way…The purgative way

The purgative way is the way, or state, of those who are beginners, that is, those who have obtained justification, but have not their passions and evil inclinations in such a state of subjugation that they can easily overcome temptations, and who, in order to preserve and exercise charity and the other virtues have to keep up a continual warfare within themselves.

 

[po18guy]

This subject means a lot because I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior many years ago in a Billy Graham crusade and it was a special turning point in my life. Of course, I still had much to learn in the faith (and still do for that matter), but it was a major milestone that resulted in a big change for the better in my lifestyle that remains intact to this day.

Then follow the command of Christ and get baptized! Only in very recent times has baptism been downplayed or dismissed completely. This is dangerous teaching!

It may not say it on the ABC salvation “formula” of my denomination’s website in post #1 regarding salvation, but I know almost all evangelicals would agree that a Christian’s life should bear the fruit of good works or else it would put into doubt the authenticity of their proclaimed salvation encounter with Christ in the first place. If an apple tree doesn’t bear apples but something else that doesn’t even resemble an apple, then it probably isn’t accurate to call it an apple tree, no?

However, the lives of many atheists also bear good fruit - most large philanthropic organizations are complete irreligious, yet they do good. We must then question our personal relationship with Christ. It begins by water and the Spirit, just as John wrote of. Baptism and the reception of the Holy SPirit, exactly as the Catholic Church has taught and practiced for almost 2,000 years.

My concern about the Catholic way of salvation – if I understand it correctly – is that if someone who was baptized as an infant gets confirmed, goes to Confession/Reconciliation but never experiences that special life-changing encounter with Christ that some refer to as being “born-again”, could they just be punching their spiritual clocks through good works and not possess the faith required for salvation? This is a rhetorical question because I truly don’t know the answer because only God can see into a person’s heart.

I would not worry about the exceptions, but rather, focus on the rule. You are speaking of the parable of the sower. What you want is for faith to find depth of soil in your soul. That will occur via complete submission to Christ and His commands, such as to be baptized.

Thanks again for your part in helping me to better understand the Catholic faith.

It is more than our duty - it is a pleasure, whether or not you ever make a move toward the Church. At the very least, you are going to know the truth about the ancient Church.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Po18guy,
I would like to respond to some of your comments. I appreciate everyone else’s too.

Then follow the command of Christ and get baptized! Only in very recent times has baptism been downplayed or dismissed completely. This is dangerous teaching!

***I was baptized in the Presbyterian Church when I was teenager after my salvation experience and after talking to my pastor about the meaning of a Trinitarian baptism. I had been raised in that church, but my mother and father (especially my mother) wanted to wait to get me baptized until I was old enough to know what I was doing and that I was getting baptized out of my own free will. She was very happy when it finally happened. I remember it was me and two infants that day, but I wasn’t embarrassed. I was proud and still am. ***

**I’m not sure what your point is here. Bearing fruit should not cause us to question our faith, provided we have faith to begin with. I’m just not tracking with you here.
I realize some atheists can have good works but they don’t have faith that salvation requires. A Christian needs both. Something tells me I don’t understand your point here. Sorry about that. **

**I am planning to visit a local Catholic Church this Saturday night for Mass if I don’t chicken out first, because I want to experience what it is like. I feel led to attend. I plan to attend my regular AOG church Sunday morning, where I serve as an usher, which is why I’m going Saturday night. Take care and God bless all of you at CAF. **

 

[FathersKnowBest]

My concern about the Catholic way of salvation – if I understand it correctly – is that if someone who was baptized as an infant gets confirmed, goes to Confession/Reconciliation but never experiences that special life-changing encounter with Christ that some refer to as being “born-again”, could they just be punching their spiritual clocks through good works and not possess the faith required for salvation? This is a rhetorical question because I truly don’t know the answer because only God can see into a person’s heart.

Yes, it’s possible. But one does not NEED a one-time special encounter. We encounter Christ and renew our promises to Him on a DAILY basis (as scripture says we must), if not more often, and in person with Him on a weekly, at least, basis in Mass where He is present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

People may refer to an event as being “born-again,” but that is not what Our Lord meant by being born anothen.

 

[Tommy999]

I know you said it was a rhetorical question, but I can’t resist.

As you said, obviously, we cannot read another person’s heart. It can be hard to tell if someone is just going through the motions or if they have an authentic faith life. But it definitely is a problem. I don’t think it’s a problem unique to Catholics, but there are plenty of Catholics out there who punch their “Catholic” card without really letting it all sink in an transform their life.

If you hang out in Catholic circles at all at the present time, you hear a lot of talk from the Pope and others in the Catholic Church about the “New Evangelization.” The targets of this new evangelization are just such people who have heard, but don’t really understand.

Obviously, we are not aiming for people to approach the Catholic faith in a mechanical way (as though God was merely a divine Pez dispenser). The goal is conversion.

Joe, I like the way you communicate the faith and I appreciate your openness and candor. I still don’t consider you an average Joe.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I am planning to visit a local Catholic Church this Saturday night for Mass if I don’t chicken out first, because I want to experience what it is like. I feel led to attend. I plan to attend my regular AOG church Sunday morning, where I serve as an usher, which is why I’m going Saturday night. Take care and God bless all of you at CAF.

Good for you!

You might want to read up or listen up on some information about the Mass first, so that you will know what to expect and what the real meaning is. I’d suggest, of course, Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper.

The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth - Book - You can get it from Amazon, too, for more $$. You can also get the kindle version.

The Lamb’s Supper CD or MP3 download - Very Cheap! Talk based on the book (NOT the full book)
The Lamb’s Supper (DVD) - don’t have this so I can’t say what it is – probably same as the CD above

How to Get the Most Out of Mass - CD or MP3 download (cheap)

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I am planning to visit a local Catholic Church this Saturday night for Mass if I don’t chicken out first, because I want to experience what it is like. I feel led to attend.

I feel that I should also mention that you should not receive the Eucharist while not a Catholic in good standing.

You can remain in your pew, or you can go up in line and cross your arms when you approach the priest or minister. They’ll know what that means.

 

[Tommy999]

I plan to sit toward the back and will try not to do anything to disrupt the service or bring undue attention to myself. However, I might want to shake the hand of the priest and introduce myself on the way out if the opportunity arises.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I plan to sit toward the back and will try not to do anything to disrupt the service or bring undue attention to myself. However, I might want to shake the hand of the priest and introduce myself on the way out if the opportunity arises.

Let us know how it goes, okay? And anything you have questions about (like, why do they ring those little bells at the consecration of the Eucharist?) come back and ask us!

Paul

 

[po18guy]

***I was baptized in the Presbyterian Church when I was teenager after my salvation experience and after talking to my pastor about the meaning of a Trinitarian baptism. ***

Great!

I’m not sure what your point is here. Bearing fruit should not cause us to question our faith, provided we have faith to begin with. I’m just not tracking with you here. Bearing fruit is a great part of our faith journey, but even those with no belief do good deeds. Thus, our conversion is more than a point in time, saying the sinner’s prayer and then assuming that we are fully Christian. The point is that we must be baptized to keep Christ’s commandments. And, you are!
Tommy999;12077157:

**I am planning to visit a local Catholic Church this Saturday night for Mass if I don’t chicken out first, because I want to experience what it is like. I feel led to attend. I plan to attend my regular AOG church Sunday morning, where I serve as an usher, which is why I’m going Saturday night. Take care and God bless all of you at CAF. **

Although it may not appear so, and you may not sense it, at the consecration, the entire host of heaven is present overhead, and the Holy Spirit descends to sanctify the bread and wine, causing the change in its substance, just as Jesus did in the upper room.

You will note less preaching. The mass is the Church’s greatest prayer. In it we are in the upper room, at the foot of the cross, and peering into the empty tomb. Experienced properly, it should bring tears of sorrow for our sins, which become tears of joy at the resurrection.

Just go. Sit when they sit. Stand when they stand. The Lord’s prayer you already know. The rest is in the Missal books, listed under the date you attend.

Just refrain from receiving communion (at this time). You may make, as do many Catholics, a spiritual communion.

 

[Joe_5859]

Joe, I like the way you communicate the faith and I appreciate your openness and candor. I still don’t consider you an average Joe.

Thanks!

 

[wmscott]

Hi Tommy, just wanted to say that I appreciate you inquiries and the questions that you ask and the way you ask them. I am a convert from the Southern Baptist persuasion all tough not a in the pew type. Parents did not see the importance of being in church every Sunday. I am sure they had their reasons and issues that they had to deal with.

The great thing about the questioning that you are doing is that you get to learn things that you may or may not have known before or that you are learning things that displace many falsehoods that you may have heard regarding the Catholic Church. The additional benefit is that there are most likely many lurkers who are just observing and are also learning in the process.

Archbishop Fulton Sheen said that not one hundred people hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly believe what the Catholic Church is.

As a convert I myself had to overcome a lot of falsehoods taught to me by the SB community.

But on to a lighter note, I am attaching a true story that happened to my Mother and I one morning at Mass. She is a SB and had never been to a Catholic Church.

Peace

 

[benhur]

So Baptism is not part of the road map to salvation?

If salvation is a process, that really goes to the last breath, per CC, the real question is why get baptized or what does baptism signify ? I would imagine with your definition of salvation, baptism is indeed a part of a protestant. The “confessing with your mouth” is what is done in Baptism,amongst other things. So not to speak for the post starter but baptism plays apart for sure.

 

[benhur]

Well…you are forgetting what Jesus said in john 6:

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

I would say this are part, and not just the path…they are part of one’s growth…to grow in holiness.

You may find them in various times in our life…explained more here:newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

State or Way:

The word is also used in the classification of the degrees or stages of Christian perfection, or the advancement of souls in the supernatural life of grace during their sojourn in the world. This has reference to the practice of all the virtues, both theological and moral, and to all their acts both external and internal. It includes two elements, namely our own efforts and the grace of God assisting us. This grace is never wanting for those acts which are positively commanded or inspired by God, and the work of perfection will proceed according to the energy and fidelity with which souls correspond with its aids.

Can’t forget either , “Be ye perfect” or “our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees”. I think there are a few more.