Would more Protestants become Catholic if it were not for Mary?

[hn160]

Are the confessions “infallible”? If they are not…what is to prevent them from being backpedalled?

While not infallible, the Confession are what the Lutheran Church says are the correct exposition of Scripture. Would the Catholic Church say that the Council of Trent is infallible, I think that it would. There lays the problem. From the Lutheran theologian Charles Porterfield Krauth’s The Conserative Reformation: The Lutheran Churchwas the first to stand forth forth, declaring that the unity of the Church turns upon nothing that of man. Where the one pure gospel of Christ is preached, where the one foundation of doctrine is laid, where the " one faith" is confessed, and the alone divine Sacraments administrated alright, there is the one Church; this is her unity.
The Church is where the the pure Gospel is preach and the Sacraments rightly administrated.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH, you have a good point. It isn’t a reason to abandon the Church, but certainly does push me away toward those who don’t make demands that don’t make sense.

It’s interesting how people can have different viewpoints on things. I just don’t see such things as the Church “pushing”…I wonder if those who abandoned Jesus in John 6 went off and said, “That business about eating his body and drinking His blood just pushed me away. It just doesn’t make sense…it’s unnecessary…etc…”
So - did Jesus push them away from Him - or did they pull away from Him?

Just a thought…

I tend to see dogma as a necessary evil. It is never a good thing, unless needed to combat heresy. Even then it has within it a tendency to distort reality.

Interesting outlook.

Peace
James

 

[Pedro_1987]

Even without devotions to Mary, Catholicism still has things that Protestants strongly disagree with, such as confessing your sins to a preist, and the infallibility of the Pope/Church doctrine. Protestants tend to reject anything they perceive as man made, which makes no sense since they still follow the bible and celebrate our holidays, but I digress.

 

[concretecamper]

While not infallible, the Confession are what the Lutheran Church says are the correct exposition of Scripture. Would the Catholic Church say that the Council of Trent is infallible, I think that it would. There lays the problem. From the Lutheran theologian Charles Porterfield Krauth’s The Conserative Reformation: The Lutheran Churchwas the first to stand forth forth, declaring that the unity of the Church turns upon nothing that of man. Where the one pure gospel of Christ is preached, where the one foundation of doctrine is laid, where the " one faith" is confessed, and the alone divine Sacraments administrated alright, there is the one Church; this is her unity.
The Church is where the the pure Gospel is preach and the Sacraments rightly administrated.

You must admit that the confessions most likely contain some error since they are from men and not divinely inspired. Is that fair?

 

[jimmy]

It’s interesting how people can have different viewpoints on things. I just don’t see such things as the Church “pushing”…I wonder if those who abandoned Jesus in John 6 went off and said, “That business about eating his body and drinking His blood just pushed me away. It just doesn’t make sense…it’s unnecessary…etc…”
So - did Jesus push them away from Him - or did they pull away from Him?

Just a thought…

Interesting outlook.

Peace
James

Think about it like this. You have the Orthodox - Oriental and Eastern - who generally live a life that falls within the range of orthodoxy according to the CC. Mary holds a special place in their life, and they celebrate feasts like the Dormition. But they don’t make new definitions on these issues. A person is free to a certain extent on the doctrines. They make the same claims as the CC about being the One true Church. When the CC makes new dogmas that don’t make sense to me, it only pushes me further in that direction. Already being a member of an ECC, it pushes me to question my place in the CC. Why not move over to a church that is consistent with where I stand?

Regarding my other statement about dogma as a necessary evil: that is simply the eastern perspective, in all of its various traditions. The faith was defined at Nicea for the sake of protecting it from destruction by Arianism. The subsequent councils were the same: a serious error arose that was destructive of the faith. But at the same time, the dogmatization of the faith tends to distort it by narrowing it. God can’t be defined, but we defined Him at Nicea. The Creed might be the best our words can offer, but they still miss the mark. God can only be encountered through darkness, and out of the darkness comes the light.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Even without devotions to Mary, Catholicism still has things that Protestants strongly disagree with, such as confessing your sins to a preist, and the infallibility of the Pope/Church doctrine. Protestants tend to reject anything they perceive as man made, which makes no sense since they still follow the bible and celebrate our holidays, but I digress.

No, you didn’t digress, everything you said is perfectly valid.

 

[JonNC]

While not infallible, the Confession are what the Lutheran Church says are the correct exposition of Scripture. Would the Catholic Church say that the Council of Trent is infallible, I think that it would. There lays the problem. From the Lutheran theologian Charles Porterfield Krauth’s The Conserative Reformation: The Lutheran Churchwas the first to stand forth forth, declaring that the unity of the Church turns upon nothing that of man. Where the one pure gospel of Christ is preached, where the one foundation of doctrine is laid, where the " one faith" is confessed, and the alone divine Sacraments administrated alright, there is the one Church; this is her unity.
The Church is where the the pure Gospel is preach and the Sacraments rightly administrated.

Amen!

Jon

 

[Brandall]

The Good Shepherd knows when it is safe to let his fold graze in
the open field, when the wolves are gone,but if some sheep want
to run off and do their own thing, that is their choice to regret.

“On the other hand, Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. For God is always wonderful in His works and worthy of all praise.”

“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.”

 

[Reuben_J]

But again, the Church does not speak on matters of science unless they have some relevancy to our salvation for the Church’s concern is for matters of faith and morals. Mary’s IC is quite relevant to our salvation. As the Church has said, it was fitting that she be preserved free of original sin because she was to conceive, not merely carry, Christ in her womb. This means that Jesus was flesh of her flesh and bone of her bone as Eve was flesh of Adam’s flesh and bone of Adam’s bone. She is the New Eve conceived in purity to make her fit to be the one from whom the Son of God would take his humanity. If that’s not sufficient for you, then that is for you to be concerned about and not me–not to put too fine a point on it.

No, the saints have said/written a good many things that the Church does not hold us to. The saints do not decide matters of faith and morals. That is the duty and responsibility of the Magisterium of the Church, God help them. It doesn’t matter what theories the saints put forth about doctrine or dogma. Not even our greatest theologians, such a Augustine or Thomas Aquinas had the authority to declare dogma. In matters of doctrine/dogma they all bowed to whatever the Church proclaimed. Once a matter has been solemnly defined, that’s the end of it for all Catholics no matter how saintly, or otherwise, they may be.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

“On the other hand, Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. For God is always wonderful in His works and worthy of all praise.”

“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.”

hmm…I’ll admit passion and ignorance might have passed in what I said earlier, but I
don’t appreciate your use of the Vatican as though it is okay to not be Catholic, even
though the choice to be is available.

 

[Brandall]

hmm…I’ll admit passion and ignorance might have passed in what I said earlier, but I
don’t appreciate your use of the Vatican as though it is okay to not be Catholic, even
though the choice to be is available.

You suppose much.

 

[JRKH]

Judas Thaddeus;11151048:

The Good Shepherd knows when it is safe to let his fold graze in
the open field, when the wolves are gone,but if some sheep want
to run off and do their own thing, that is their choice to regret.

“On the other hand, Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the truly Christian endowments from our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the riches of Christ and virtuous works in the lives of others who are bearing witness to Christ, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. For God is always wonderful in His works and worthy of all praise.”

“The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection.”

For those interested…Brandall is quoting the “Decree on Ecumenism”.

Brandall,
A couple of things crossed my mind as I pondered this exchange with Thaddeus here.
First of all is how true the quote above is - that we do need to respect our separated brothers and celebrate the blessings of God that we share with each other.
Second, I think that there are elements of Thad’s reference that are quite on the mark - regardless of ecumenical issues.
If a sheep wanders from one flock to another…in close proximity and all claimed by the same shepherd…that is one thing. But if a sheep wander off on his own guided only by his own nose…that is another and far more dangerous for the sheep.
I don’t know if the analogy stretches much further than that.

Getting back to your quote…It’s important to recognize that while we do need to treat each other with respect and affection, part of that respect and affection must be to point out error. Not in an accusatory way - but in a spirit of charity and an opening up of Truth.
Jesus Himself tells us to do this in Mt 18:15-18 and we see the principles outlined here put into action in Acts 15. Both Peter and Paul exhort us to a profound unity and Christ prayed that we be one even as He and the Father are One…How much more unity could there be than that?

Much of what we do here at CAF, and much of what is intended by the “Decree on Ecumenism”, is contained in Mt 18:15-16. We celebrate what is good and we seek to correct what is in error - which is best accomplished through charitable dialogue and prayerful discernment. Of course here at CAF and in many places around the world, good sincere Christians can find themselves at an impasse.
Now Christ tells us that when we cannot resolve a matter amongst ourselves, then we need to tell it to the Church and to Listen to the Church (Mt 18:17). Again, I point to Acts 15 as the example of this instruction put into action.

Of course what looks quite easy and straightforward in Scripture is not so easy today in the current ekklesial situation. The question is raised “which church” does one “tell it to”?
To overcome this the Church has, through the Decree on Ecumenism and various outreaches, sought to grow understanding and common expression and to seek unity with our separated brothers. Talks have been undertaken with the Eastern Orthodox. Joint statements issued with the Lutherans. An ordinariate set up for Anglican groups who wish to join the Church.
This then is the spirit of unity and Ecumenism.

I suggest that any Bible believing Christian, having read Christ’s prayer for unity - and Peter’s and Paul’s exhortations to unity - and having read Mt 18 and Acts 15 - should yearn for such profound unity and to promote such unity between all true disciples of Christ.

Peace
James

 

[Miriam1947]

Someone please fix the super wide picture. Bandwidth hog for sure.

 

[Brandall]

For those interested…Brandall is quoting the “Decree on Ecumenism”.

Brandall,
A couple of things crossed my mind as I pondered this exchange with Thaddeus here.
First of all is how true the quote above is - that we do need to respect our separated brothers and celebrate the blessings of God that we share with each other.
Second, I think that there are elements of Thad’s reference that are quite on the mark - regardless of ecumenical issues.
If a sheep wanders from one flock to another…in close proximity and all claimed by the same shepherd…that is one thing. But if a sheep wander off on his own guided only by his own nose…that is another and far more dangerous for the sheep.
I don’t know if the analogy stretches much further than that.

Getting back to your quote…It’s important to recognize that while we do need to treat each other with respect and affection, part of that respect and affection must be to point out error. Not in an accusatory way - but in a spirit of charity and an opening up of Truth.
Jesus Himself tells us to do this in Mt 18:15-18 and we see the principles outlined here put into action in Acts 15. Both Peter and Paul exhort us to a profound unity and Christ prayed that we be one even as He and the Father are One…How much more unity could there be than that?

Much of what we do here at CAF, and much of what is intended by the “Decree on Ecumenism”, is contained in Mt 18:15-16. We celebrate what is good and we seek to correct what is in error - which is best accomplished through charitable dialogue and prayerful discernment. Of course here at CAF and in many places around the world, good sincere Christians can find themselves at an impasse.
Now Christ tells us that when we cannot resolve a matter amongst ourselves, then we need to tell it to the Church and to Listen to the Church (Mt 18:17). Again, I point to Acts 15 as the example of this instruction put into action.

Of course what looks quite easy and straightforward in Scripture is not so easy today in the current ekklesial situation. The question is raised “which church” does one “tell it to”?
To overcome this the Church has, through the Decree on Ecumenism and various outreaches, sought to grow understanding and common expression and to seek unity with our separated brothers. Talks have been undertaken with the Eastern Orthodox. Joint statements issued with the Lutherans. An ordinariate set up for Anglican groups who wish to join the Church.
This then is the spirit of unity and Ecumenism.

I suggest that any Bible believing Christian, having read Christ’s prayer for unity - and Peter’s and Paul’s exhortations to unity - and having read Mt 18 and Acts 15 - should yearn for such profound unity and to promote such unity between all true disciples of Christ.

Peace
James

Just for clarity’e sake, I’ll explain a bit better.

There are millions of Christians in this world that have never been a part of the Catholic “flock”. Their parents weren’t, grand parents weren’t, etc., for hundreds of years. They did not “run off and do their own thing”, and it certainly isn’t a choice they made to regret.

The document quoted is not the only document of the Catholic Church that holds the “separated brethren” blameless for their condition. Then to have someone actually blame us or more accurately, accuse us of “run[ing] off to do their [our] own thing”, is offensive.

 

[JRKH]

Just for clarity’e sake, I’ll explain a bit better.

There are millions of Christians in this world that have never been a part of the Catholic “flock”. Their parents weren’t, grand parents weren’t, etc., for hundreds of years. They did not “run off and do their own thing”, and it certainly isn’t a choice they made to regret

Yes - I understand this part.

The document quoted is not the only document of the Catholic Church that holds the “separated brethren” blameless for their condition. Then to have someone actually blame us or more accurately, accuse us of “run[ing] off to do their [our] own thing”, is offensive.

Well - maybe I did not see something in the remarks that you saw…but I did not particularly see an accusation - though I can see how one might read it that way.
As you rightly point out…one would have to be a member of a given flock before one could be accused of “running off”.

Peace
James

 

[Randy_Carson]

Then to have someone actually blame us or more accurately, accuse us of “run[ing] off to do their [our] own thing”, is offensive.

Brandall-

You are right. Occasionally in the heat of apologetics “battle”, the kids get blamed for the sins of the parents.

Steve Ray, a former Baptist who became a Catholic, talks about this and I converted p) his talk into the following:

The Ship and the Rafts
A Catholic Convert Looks Back (transcribed from a talk)
By Steve Ray

Imagine a king who establishes a new country on the other side of the ocean. In order to populate his new land, he chooses the people that he wants to make citizens. Next, he builds a ship and prepares his chosen people for the long journey across the ocean.

The ship he provides is a large, beautiful ocean liner well-equipped with everything needed for the journey: food and water, showers with hot water, navigation charts, a crew and captain, and power to move the ship. The king puts everyone he has chosen aboard this ship and sends them on their way to their new home. Everything needed to reach the new country can be found aboard that ship.

Of course, the founder of this new country is God, the new country is heaven, and you and I are the ones he has chosen to journey there. The ship that He built is the Catholic Church, the captain is the pope, and the crew is the bishops, priests and deacons. The navigation charts are Scripture and Tradition. The showers are the sacraments of baptism and reconciliation, and the food and water for the journey is the Eucharist. The power that moves the ship is the Holy Spirit. Everything we need to reach heaven can be found within the Catholic Church.

The journey goes smoothly until the ship is halfway across the ocean. Then, some of the passengers start to argue and protest. Like the Israelites who grumbled about the manna in the desert, they begin to complain about eating the same food all the time. They ask, “Who is this captain, and why should he be in charge? Who gave these crew members the right to tell us what to do?”

The protesters go down into the bottom of the ship where they find wood and rope, and they build rafts for themselves. They collect food and water, clothing and anything else they can find, and throw themselves and their rafts over the side of the ship. Now, they don’t have to listen to the captain and crew, or eat that same old food or even take those hot showers which made them uncomfortable. They are free!

The scene is amazing. Instead of a single ship sailing for its home port, there are now 33,000 or more small rafts in the water around the ship! (The Oxford University Encyclopedia of Christianity says there are 33,000 Protestant denominations today with more being added to this number each year.) Now this beautiful ship is surrounded by 33,000 rafts bobbing around it—each with its own captain giving conflicting and contradictory orders.

As the ship continues toward heaven, some of the rafts remain close by, but others drift off into the distance, and some are moving in the opposite direction and have lost their way completely. Those rafts that are close to the ship are sheltered from some of the wind and waves; those farther away are tossed about during the storms. The farther away they are, the less chance they have to make it to the other side.

Everything good on board the rafts came from the ship, but now they are cut off from that source. Eventually, the food runs out, and the people begin to eat something other than what the king provided. There are no showers available for the people to get clean again.

When I was a Protestant, I never realized that everything good that I had came from the Catholic Church. For example, the Bible was put together by Catholic bishops and copied and preserved by Catholic monks. Martin Luther even admitted that we wouldn’t have a Bible if it were not for “the papists.” My Protestant fellowship only had two sacraments, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, while the Catholic Church has seven. Those who are still out on the rafts need to be reminded that everything they have, they got from the Mother ship.

One interesting point is that I did not jump off the ship; I was born on a raft. For a long time, I didn’t even know there was ship—it was nowhere in sight! I was born on a Baptist raft, and I could yell over to the Methodist raft, and they could yell over to the Episcopalian raft, and they could yell over to the Anglican raft, and so forth. We called that fellowship.

Then one day, I caught a glimpse of something large on the horizon, and I said, “Hey, what is that?” They answered, “We don’t want to talk about it.” “Why not?” I asked. “Because it’s bad.” “What is it?” “It’s the ship.” Out of ignorance, I accepted the idea that the ship was bad.

One day, however, it dawned on me that that the founder of the country I was trying to reach had created the ship to carry me home safely. “Of course,” I thought. “Why would God create 33,000 rafts competing to ferry His people home?” After reading and researching and praying, I got back on board the ship. I became a Catholic, and I’m amazed at what I have found onboard.

Cradle Catholics may take these things for granted, but we converts are in awe. You have seven sacraments, and they work! You have navigation charts: the Scriptures and the Tradition that helps you make sense of the maps. You have a crew that understands how to read the maps and charts without error, how to prepare the food, the Eucharist, properly, and how to operate the showers so that we can get cleaned up from all the foul-smelling sins we commit. You also have a captain, the Pope, who actually knows where he’s going!

 

[Brandall]

Brandall-

You are right. Occasionally in the heat of apologetics “battle”, the kids get blamed for the sins of the parents.

Steve Ray, a former Baptist who became a Catholic, talks about this and I converted p) his talk into the following:

The Ship and the Rafts
A Catholic Convert Looks Back (transcribed from a talk)
By Steve Ray

Of course, the founder of this new country is God, the new country is heaven, and you and I are the ones he has chosen to journey there. The ship that He built is the Catholic Church, the captain is the pope, and the crew is the bishops, priests and deacons. The navigation charts are Scripture and Tradition. The showers are the sacraments of baptism and reconciliation, and the food and water for the journey is the Eucharist. The power that moves the ship is the Holy Spirit. Everything we need to reach heaven can be found within the Catholic Church.

The journey goes smoothly until the ship is halfway across the ocean. Then, some of the passengers start to argue and protest. Like the Israelites who grumbled about the manna in the desert, they begin to complain about eating the same food all the time. They ask, “Who is this captain, and why should he be in charge? Who gave these crew members the right to tell us what to do?”

The protesters go down into the bottom of the ship where they find wood and rope, and they build rafts for themselves. They collect food and water, clothing and anything else they can find, and throw themselves and their rafts over the side of the ship. Now, they don’t have to listen to the captain and crew, or eat that same old food or even take those hot showers which made them uncomfortable. They are free!

The scene is amazing. Instead of a single ship sailing for its home port, there are now 33,000 or more small rafts in the water around the ship! (The Oxford University Encyclopedia of Christianity says there are 33,000 Protestant denominations today with more being added to this number each year.) Now this beautiful ship is surrounded by 33,000 rafts bobbing around it—each with its own captain giving conflicting and contradictory orders.

As the ship continues toward heaven, some of the rafts remain close by, but others drift off into the distance, and some are moving in the opposite direction and have lost their way completely. Those rafts that are close to the ship are sheltered from some of the wind and waves; those farther away are tossed about during the storms. The farther away they are, the less chance they have to make it to the other side.

Everything good on board the rafts came from the ship, but now they are cut off from that source. Eventually, the food runs out, and the people begin to eat something other than what the king provided. There are no showers available for the people to get clean again.

When I was a Protestant, I never realized that everything good that I had came from the Catholic Church. For example, the Bible was put together by Catholic bishops and copied and preserved by Catholic monks. Martin Luther even admitted that we wouldn’t have a Bible if it were not for “the papists.” My Protestant fellowship only had two sacraments, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, while the Catholic Church has seven. Those who are still out on the rafts need to be reminded that everything they have, they got from the Mother ship.

One interesting point is that I did not jump off the ship; I was born on a raft. For a long time, I didn’t even know there was ship—it was nowhere in sight! I was born on a Baptist raft, and I could yell over to the Methodist raft, and they could yell over to the Episcopalian raft, and they could yell over to the Anglican raft, and so forth. We called that fellowship.

Then one day, I caught a glimpse of something large on the horizon, and I said, “Hey, what is that?” They answered, “We don’t want to talk about it.” “Why not?” I asked. “Because it’s bad.” “What is it?” “It’s the ship.” Out of ignorance, I accepted the idea that the ship was bad.

One day, however, it dawned on me that that the founder of the country I was trying to reach had created the ship to carry me home safely. “Of course,” I thought. “Why would God create 33,000 rafts competing to ferry His people home?” After reading and researching and praying, I got back on board the ship. I became a Catholic, and I’m amazed at what I have found onboard.

Cradle Catholics may take these things for granted, but we converts are in awe. You have seven sacraments, and they work! You have navigation charts: the Scriptures and the Tradition that helps you make sense of the maps. You have a crew that understands how to read the maps and charts without error, how to prepare the food, the Eucharist, properly, and how to operate the showers so that we can get cleaned up from all the foul-smelling sins we commit. You also have a captain, the Pope, who actually knows where he’s going!

A couple of thoughts about this. You mention “sins of the parents”. The Catholic Church realizes that those sins were on both sides. " for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." Too often it is presented here that the sins were one sided and it just isn’t the case.

To accept the “33,000 protestant denominations” figure, you also have to accept that there are 282 Catholic denominations. Are there 282 Catholic denominations? If so, the Catholic Church should probably focus their efforts at unity there first.

No offense but the story you’ve shared isn’t very compelling. It does make me wonder how many on the ship would want to refuse entry of the rafters onto their ship. It also makes me wonder how many would want to throw others off the ship.

(I had to shorten your post to get under 6000 characters)

 

[Randy_Carson]

A couple of thoughts about this. You mention “sins of the parents”. The Catholic Church realizes that those sins were on both sides. " for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." Too often it is presented here that the sins were one sided and it just isn’t the case.

A point worth remembering, of course.

To accept the “33,000 protestant denominations” figure, you also have to accept that there are 282 Catholic denominations. Are there 282 Catholic denominations? If so, the Catholic Church should probably focus their efforts at unity there first.

A topic argued at length many, many times in these forums. I categorically reject that argument. You know in your heart that the principle of the matter is true. Just open your phone book. "Nuff said.

No offense but the story you’ve shared isn’t very compelling. It does make me wonder how many on the ship would want to refuse entry of the rafters onto their ship.

Why should we not want you to board the ship? I did.

It also makes me wonder how many would want to throw others off the ship.

Well, there are a few famous politicians who claim to be Catholic that I’d like to see bobbing about in the waves, but I don’t get to make that call.

 

[hn160]

Brandall-

You are right. Occasionally in the heat of apologetics “battle”, the kids get blamed for the sins of the parents.

Steve Ray, a former Baptist who became a Catholic, talks about this and I converted p) his talk into the following:

The Ship and the Rafts
A Catholic Convert Looks Back (transcribed from a talk)
By Steve Ray

The scene is amazing. Instead of a single ship sailing for its home port, there are now 33,000 or more small rafts in the water around the ship! (The Oxford University Encyclopedia of Christianity says there are 33,000 Protestant denominations today with more being added to this number each year.) Now this beautiful ship is surrounded by 33,000 rafts bobbing around it—each with its own captain giving conflicting and contradictory orders.

As the ship continues toward heaven, some of the rafts remain close by, but others drift off into the distance, and some are moving in the opposite direction and have lost their way completely. Those rafts that are close to the ship are sheltered from some of the wind and waves; those farther away are tossed about during the storms. The farther away they are, the less chance they have to make it to the other side.

Everything good on board the rafts came from the ship, but now they are cut off from that source. Eventually, the food runs out, and the people begin to eat something other than what the king provided. There are no showers available for the people to get clean again.

When I was a Protestant, I never realized that everything good that I had came from the Catholic Church. For example, the Bible was put together by Catholic bishops and copied and preserved by Catholic monks. Martin Luther even admitted that we wouldn’t have a Bible if it were not for “the papists.” My Protestant fellowship only had two sacraments, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, while the Catholic Church has seven. Those who are still out on the rafts need to be reminded that everything they have, they got from the Mother ship.

One interesting point is that I did not jump off the ship; I was born on a raft. For a long time, I didn’t even know there was ship—it was nowhere in sight! I was born on a Baptist raft, and I could yell over to the Methodist raft, and they could yell over to the Episcopalian raft, and they could yell over to the Anglican raft, and so forth. We called that fellowship.

Then one day, I caught a glimpse of something large on the horizon, and I said, “Hey, what is that?” They answered, “We don’t want to talk about it.” “Why not?” I asked. “Because it’s bad.” “What is it?” “It’s the ship.” Out of ignorance, I accepted the idea that the ship was bad.

One day, however, it dawned on me that that the founder of the country I was trying to reach had created the ship to carry me home safely. “Of course,” I thought. “Why would God create 33,000 rafts competing to ferry His people home?” After reading and researching and praying, I got back on board the ship. I became a Catholic, and I’m amazed at what I have found onboard.

Cradle Catholics may take these things for granted, but we converts are in awe. You have seven sacraments, and they work! You have navigation charts: the Scriptures and the Tradition that helps you make sense of the maps. You have a crew that understands how to read the maps and charts without error, how to prepare the food, the Eucharist, properly, and how to operate the showers so that we can get cleaned up from all the foul-smelling sins we commit. You also have a captain, the Pope, who actually knows where he’s going!

I don’t deny that we ( Lutherans ) owe much to the Catholic Church, but as far as tradition, it should not be held on sane level as Scripture. It is said that the Catholic Church sits on a three leg stool: Scripture, Tradition, and the Papacy. The problem with tradition there are many and they can not be back up with Scripture. It is like the Muslims, they have the supposed sayings of Muhammad in the Hadith, but nobody really knows if he really said these saying. Yet they are taken as gospel.
As far as having a Pope as a captain who knows where he is going. The Catholic Church has had recently different popes and they seem to be drifting a bit.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t deny that we ( Lutherans ) owe much to the Catholic Church, but as far as tradition, it should not be held on same level as Scripture. It is said that the Catholic Church sits on a three leg stool: Scripture, Tradition, and the Papacy.

1. One slight correction the three legged stood is Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium (teaching authority) of which the Papal office is the head.
2. It might surprise you to know that the Canon of Scripture itself is a “Tradition” and, as you indicate below, there are many. The Canon of Scripture varies among Christian communions. Lutherans use 66, Catholics use 73, the EO and Oriental Churches use more…I believe up to 81 in the Ethiopian Church.

The problem with tradition there are many and they can not be back up with Scripture.

This may or may not be true. One must look at the specific tradition and then one must take into account variations in interpretation of bible passages. I may say that a given passage supports some traditional belief and you might might say that it does not.

One thing is certain though…the Bible canon itself cannot be backed up with Scripture.
It is Tradition and since you say that tradition should not be placed on the same level as Scripture - because there are so many and they vary…now you have a catch-22.

Peace
James