Would more Protestants become Catholic if it were not for Mary?

[Randy_Carson]

I have no particular problem with Mary, though I don’t buy the unique Catholic Marian dogmas. Still, that’s not what keeps me away, except perhaps as a minor contributing factor. My issues have more to do with universal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, no women as priests, no married priests, the theology of the body (which makes no sense to me), etc. (And no, I am not here to debate any of those issues)

Theology of the Body?

That’s a first…

 

[dronald]

If there was anything prior to this that is important to what I have to say direct me there.

Like I said in another post the catholic theories about Mary are what is keeping me from joining your church. I would probably comprise a lot of other beliefs I hold different except this one. I have spent countless hours researching this one subject and stopped about 1 year ago because I realized that there is not a premise or combination of premise that I have not heard or read that have convinced me that your propositions are correct. I wish I could have done my research subjectively but I cannot not on this subject. I would say we could comprise but then you would loss what I think is the best quality of the catholic church. Which is it’s bold views and it’s uncompromising stance on them. I love that you guys think that the Pope cannot err ex-cathedral and you stand behind that 100%. Do I think you are wrong, yes, but who am I.

Never been to or heard of a mass that had contemporary worship either which is more what I like.

Can I interrupt for just a second please? I remember when I was young I would accidently say, “the way the truth and the light” however, I believe it’s “life.” does any rendition have, “light” because your Religion status is hurting my brain.

With love!

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

In case you haven’t noticed but Lutherans have pro-actively engaged the Vatican more than any other Christian denomination [even Orthodox] for over 50 years. Some of us consider ourselves within the Roman Catholic church as a cousin reconciling a 500 year old grievance. Martin Luther did not want anything but integrity from Pope X; it was a tragic circumstance that Lutherans want to resolve and unite with La Papa.

Lutherans still break away, doesn’t matter if one is one foot or one mile away from the
Catholic Church, if you reject it as the Only True Church which Christ established with
Peter, you are not part of it, plain and simple.

Reject the Lutheran Gospel or Throw out the Catholic Gospel, can’t keep both…

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Lutherans still break away, doesn’t matter if one is one foot or one mile away from the
Catholic Church, if you reject it as the Only True Church which Christ established with
Peter. Either one is part of that or not, plain and simple.

Reject the Lutheran Gospel or Throw out the Catholic Gospel, can’t keep both.…

The same Gospel that Lutherans/ Catholics/ Anglicans, etc profess in our common lectonary? Let’s at least acknowledge that Pope Benedict opened doors to Lutherans; was that a mistake?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The same Gospel that Lutherans/ Catholics/ Anglicans, etc profess in our common lectonary? Let’s at least acknowledge that Pope Benedict opened doors to Lutherans; was that a mistake?

Reading the same Gospels, good and all, but the differences in interpretation changes it all.
Did Jesus give authority and duty to St. Peter to be the head of the Church and to take care
of it? I’ll be PLEASANTLY surprised depending on how you answer this: Do you accept the
authority of the Pope over the Church, that everyone should not challenge the Papacy?

Now was it a mistake for Pope Benedict to open the doors to Lutherans? Absolutely
not, but will Lutherans abandon Lutheran theology and enter through those doors?

Not trying to being mean, but
there is a chasm between
Lutheran theology and
Catholic theology.
​

Test Question: Is the Deuterocanon HOLY Scripture just as the Old and
the New Testaments are? Equal in importance and canonicity? Not just
handy as a historical filler of the intertestamentary period? There is only
one correct answer: The Catholic Answer.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Reading the same Gospels, good and all, but the differences in interpretation changes it all.
Did Jesus give authority and duty to St. Peter to be the head of the Church and to take care
of it? I’ll be PLEASANTLY surprised depending on how you answer this: Do you accept the
authority of the Pope over the Church, that everyone should not challenge the Papacy?

Now was it a mistake for Pope Benedict to open the doors to Lutherans? Absolutely
not, but will Lutherans abandon Lutheran theology and enter through those doors?
Test Question: Is the Deuterocanon HOLY Scripture just as the Old and
the New Testaments are? Equal in importance and canonicity? Not just
handy as a historical filler of the intertestamentary period? There is only
on correct answer: The Catholic Answer.

Ultimately, Lutherans are the confessing wing of the Western Church, very active in reunification with Rome, the very center of our Catholic faith.

 

[JRKH]

If there was anything prior to this that is important to what I have to say direct me there.

Like I said in another post the catholic theories about Mary are what is keeping me from joining your church. I would probably comprise a lot of other beliefs I hold different except this one. I have spent countless hours researching this one subject and stopped about 1 year ago because I realized that there is not a premise or combination of premise that I have not heard or read that have convinced me that your propositions are correct. I wish I could have done my research subjectively but I cannot not on this subject. I would say we could comprise but then you would loss what I think is the best quality of the catholic church. Which is it’s bold views and it’s uncompromising stance on them. I love that you guys think that the Pope cannot err ex-cathedral and you stand behind that 100%. Do I think you are wrong, yes, but who am I.

I guess that it boils down to this. Even though you believe you could “compromise” on other issues…the bottom line is that you have not accepted the the Church is authoritative and that is the big stumbling block…not Mary.
Either the Church is authoritative and received it’s authority from Christ or it is not…If it is, then it behooves us to “listen to the Church” (Mt 18:17) on all things for she has the authority to bind and loose whatever (Mt 18:18).
So - rather than trouble yourself over each and every point of potential difference…may I suggest you look into this aspect…Did Christ intend his Church on earth to be united, visible, universal and authoritative?

Peace
James

 

[Randy_Carson]

No, I think fewer Protestants would convert to Catholicism if it were not for the intercession of Mary.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

No, I think fewer Protestants would convert to Catholicism if it were not for the intercession of Mary.

Remarkable conclusion of compromise and divine intervention

 

[concretecamper]

Randy Carson:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNC

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the doctrine of the Holy Theotokos was defined at the Council of Ephesus.

Jon

Ninja Catholic.

1. If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh, let him be anathema.

Jon’s welcome at my parish (St. Ann’s) anytime

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[livingwordunity]

Individualism is what keeps Protestants from becoming Catholic. They don’t want anyone telling them what to do. Everything about being Catholic hinges on the willingness to submit to the Magisterium of the Church because her authority to teach comes directly from Christ and is protected by the Holy Spirit from error. Submitting to the Pope automatically means submission to all the doctrines of the Church.

 

[bben15]

Actually, I think there would be less converts if it wasn’t for Mary and her great intercessions.

 

[ufamtobie]

ufamtobie;11151239:

Virgin Mary was destined, destined without there being a second choice in the mind of God to be the Mother Of God, but yet, God gave Her the Will to choose to have the Son of God or not.

However, God knows all, God knew the future, He knew this beautiful Creature that He Created with an extraordinary Love / care, with extraordinary Graces, She was cut from higher Sublime Cloth, far surpass any other human creature, that our intellect can not understand in this life, pure, spotless of any sin, Mother of the Son of God, Mother of us all, would say YES! Thus the reason why God had no other in mind, to bare His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, but Virgin Mary. Amen

Now Imagine, if Virgin Mary used Her free will, and said no, where would we be today?

So yes, Virgin Mary is Co-Redemtrix / Mediatrix of all Graces.

I must strongly disagree with your assumption that Mary did not use her free will to accept God’s call. If your assumption is true then Mary was no more than a vessel created for one purpose and had no choice in the matter. God is always consistent in all things. If all others were created with free will then Mary was created with free will and her will was to perfectly submit to God’s plan of salvation through the great sacrifice of Christ Jesus. God, being omnipotent, was aware of her decision long before her conception but she must have that right to surrender to God; that is what makes Mary so wonderful and an example to all mankind. However she never be attributed with those things that belong to Christ alone; that of redeemer of creation and the only mediator between God and man.

BelieveDoc,

I strongly agree that you Please reread the post correctly. I never said Virgin Mary had no free will. I said Virgin Mary could of used Her free will, not to accept to be the Mother of Jesus Christ.

BelieveDoc, If Virgin Mary chose not to be the Mother of the Son of God then where would we be?

God gave us all free will, including Virgin Mary.

Please read the post correctly.

Ufam Tobie

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Ultimately, Lutherans are the confessing wing of the Western Church, very active in reunification with Rome, the very center of our Catholic faith.

Well, I’ll look forward to that. I just hope that it will be on Rome’s terms, like
viewing the entire Bible as HOLY Scripture , including the erroneously titled
“Apocrypha,” and no negotiations and conceding on Catholicism’s part.

(Pardon my suspicions, I am a
little skeptical, but I will do my
research , and look forward to
being wrong)
​

 

[JRKH]

Well, I’ll look forward to that. I just hope that it will be on Rome’s terms, like
viewing the entire Bible as HOLY Scripture , including the erroneously titled
“Apocrypha,” and no negotiations and conceding on Catholicism’s part.

(Pardon my suspicions, I am a
little skeptical, but I will do my
research , and look forward to
being wrong)
​

Reunification Yes - but not on “Rome’s terms” - rather on God’s terms…
True unity does not come from “negotiations and conceding” but rather from prayerful discernment and consensus.

Peace
James

 

[Cat]

Individualism is what keeps Protestants from becoming Catholic. They don’t want anyone telling them what to do. Everything about being Catholic hinges on the willingness to submit to the Magisterium of the Church because her authority to teach comes directly from Christ and is protected by the Holy Spirit from error. Submitting to the Pope automatically means submission to all the doctrines of the Church.

But there’s a problem here. In real life, many Catholics do exactly the same thing the Protestants do–practice an “individualism”. They contracept, they masturbate, they fornicate and co-habit, they divorce and re-marry and repeat, they believe in abortion and procure it for themselves and others, they produce media and art that is indecent, they get drunk and laugh about it, they criticize their church as old-fashioned or out-of-touch and demand things like women priests, and they receive Holy Communion in spite of doing these things.

Protestants who are watching all this have a difficult time having any respect for Catholicism.

Now in all fairness, most Protestants know some reverent, devout, faithful Catholics, and these Catholics are the BEST witness to Protestants. Before converting to Catholicism, I worked with quite a few devout Catholics in the pro-life movement, and it really helped me to see that just because a lot of Catholics disregard their Church and live “free,” that’s not Catholicism.

But Catholics do tend to “hide their lights under a bushel,” and so what Protestants often see are the “bad apples” who make the Church look really bad.

You might ask, “aren’t there disobedient and rebellious Protestants, too?” Yes, but if they are in Evangelical denominations, they get “ousted” from their churches. It’s very difficult to be an Evangelical Protestant and live a sinful lifestyle–you are excluded and shunned by the rest of the people in the Church. Also, Evangelical Protestants really DO live a very “clean” life; a lot of Catholics don’t believe this, but it’s true–my husband and I were Evangelical Protestant for 47 years, and we knew thousands of Evangelical Protestants, and only a few of them turned out to be living a lie. Most lived exemplary lives of deceny and kindness. Now maybe things are changing in the Evangelical denominations, just as all things are changing in these modern times. But I don’t think so–the Evangelical Protestants that we still know are quite “good.”

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic please

 

[JonNC]

1. If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh, let him be anathema.

Jon’s welcome at my parish (St. Ann’s) anytime

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You are very kind. I am honored.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

The holy Mother of God should not be a sticking point between Lutherans and Catholics. We honor the blessed Virgin Mary, believe she is the holy Theotokos, are **OK with the immaculate conception/ assumption into heaven **and view Our Lady as only second to Our Lord Jesus who prays for us.

Otherwise this becomes a trivial discussion.

I agree with this. I might add, however, that on the bolded, the Lutheran complaint is in regards to them being dogmatically defined, binding the conscience of the believer. One wonders if it would be possible for this to be not considered Church dividing. It would be an issue for Orthodoxy, too, as I understand it.

Jon

 

[TrueLight]

Not sure - when you say Mary is the stumbling block - if you actually mean** the** or a stumbling block.

So - linking this to the OP’s question - do you think that more protestants - evangelicals could overcome their other objections
(purgatory, prayers for the dead, saintly intercession, the papal office and authority, etc) if we did not venerate Mary to the degree we do?

My guess is that they would not. Mary may be the most obvious and visible barrier for some / many, but if you remove that barrier another will simply become “top dog”.

Just some thoughts

Peace
James

Speaking from my experience, once I understood the authority of the Church, then I was able to accept purgatory, prayers for the dead, etc because the Church said so.

However, veneration of Mary was still a very scary thought for me, because of the first commandment.