Would more Protestants become Catholic if it were not for Mary?

[dronald]

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Dronald-- Please do not give up; I appreciate your perspective as an evangelical (hopefully still wanting to convert). These points are exactly what we as Catholics need to know when engaging in discussions with evangelicals. PS. do you mind a PM? I feel compelled to clarify something that was posted on your other thread about your conversion, but know that it will derail the thread if I put it there.

Absolutely you can PM me.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I feel bad that I’m finding this entertaining, especially since I’ve been waiting outside a Cathedral to meet with a Catholic Priest about my conversion to Catholicism. You have all done a wonderful job proving my point that one can only win their brother with love. Read the entire thread.

God bless.

Whenever we, Catholic or Protestant, thump our chests at whoever is biggest and best, we do injustice to Christ’s mission. Of course Protestants have done countless missions and evangelical works. So have Catholics. That is an issue we have in common and should embrace.

Hope you kept your appointment dr.

Don’t judge a book by its cover and definitely don’t judged Catholicism by the forums!

 

[Jon_S_1]

Jesus called for unity in His prayer for His disciples before His agony in the Gospel of John.

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:21

And why would He leave His church with a leader with authority who is Peter, ie the Pope.

Look at the New Testament Letters and see how they talk about people going from the true faith and they throughout the letters correct wrongs and tell them to adhear to their teaching which was true.

I always think that if the Reformation was such a great idea and was supposed to be the restoration of Christs Church why did it break into 20000-30000 different denominations?

Jesus was about unity, He started the Catholic Church and any church outside of it, while still containing a small portion of the truth and doing good, do not contain the whole truth as the Catholic Church does.

I mean how can Protestants put down Catholics when their Sola Scriptura is not only not biblical but nothing in bible even hints to it! And not to mention a warped representation of Jesus’ teachings and saying what He said isnt actually interpreted that way or he reslly didnt mean that.

I have no doubts as a former evangelical that Christ works through Protestant churches and that many if those separated BROTHERS are very truthfully seeking Christ.

Did God want the church divided? NO

But it is and now hundreds of years later Protestants today should not be held responsible for the sins of the reformers.

If they are seeking God we meet them there. IEEE meet them in the truths they do have and then we witness in words and deeds to bring them home.

 

[hn160]

For Lutherans, Mary is not the problem. The problems between Lutherans and the Catholics were brought about by the Council of Trent. To come to some type of agreement, Lutherans would have to backpedal the Confessions and the Catholics the Council of Trent. That would never happen.

 

[followingtheway]

I’m not entirely sure because besides the whole Mary thing, Protestants disagree with Catholics on a ton of other issues. There’s still the issue of the saints, sacred images (ie. statues, icons etc.), the eucharist, the sacraments (I’ve seen a number especially take an issue with confession), priesthood, the papacy and the ideas behind the priesthood and papacy and a number of other issues I could on about.

 

[pablope]

For Lutherans, Mary is not the problem. The problems between Lutherans and the Catholics were brought about by the Council of Trent. To come to some type of agreement, Lutherans would have to backpedal the Confessions and the Catholics the Council of Trent. That would never happen.

Are the confessions “infallible”? If they are not…what is to prevent them from being backpedalled?

 

[believerdoc]

I was reading through some other posts on here and it got me to thinking: If Protestants do their research and study theology, I think that many of them would come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the true Church. However, many Protestants believe (mistakenly) that Catholics worship Mary.

Do you think that more Protestant Christians would convert to Catholicism if it were not for our veneration of Mary?

If so, what can “we” do in a spirit of evangelism to either educate or correct their misguided notions of our veneration?

The veneration of Mary is not really the primary stumbling block. Other major items would include: praying for the intersession of “saints”, praying to anyone other than God through Jesus; the Real Presence, Purgatory, the authority of the Pope, Papal infallibility, Tradition versus Scripture alone, confession to a priest, 5 additional Sacraments, the understanding of Holy Communion and Baptism, Faith Alone versus Faith and Works, and so much more. Catholics have a mistaken idea that Protestants do not love and honor Mary which is incorrect. We love her and honor her as the first perfect Christian witness who totally surrendered to the perfect will of God. We honor her as the perfect example of motherhood, and for her care and love of the Child Jesus;it is just our understanding of her role that differs. Dogma such as the Assumption, Perpetual Virginity of Mary, Co-Redemptrix, and Mediator of all Graces add to the difficulty.

So in answer to your question I do not feel that Marian dogma alone is the cause of the difficulties.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

It’s not just Mary, but the Pope, the Deuterocanon, Purgatory, Intercession by Saints, the
idea that you need to confess to a priest, (granted maybe a little of bad events in history),
Transubstantiation, Apostolic Succession (technically same as Pope), TRADITION (yikes
the Protestants loathe “Tradition” !!!), and so many other things.

The Good Shepherd knows when it is safe to let his fold graze in
the open field, when the wolves are gone,but if some sheep want
to run off and do their own thing, that is their choice to regret.

When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “ Simon son of John, do you love me more than these ? ”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John,
do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”The third
time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time,
“Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. Very truly
I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will
stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said this
to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

It’s not just Mary, but the Pope, the Deuterocanon, Purgatory, Intercession by Saints, the
idea that you need to confess to a priest, (granted maybe a little of bad events in history),
Transubstantiation, Apostolic Succession (technically same as Pope), TRADITION (yikes
the Protestants loathe “Tradition” !!!), and so many other things.

The Good Shepherd knows when it is safe to let his fold graze in
the open field, when the wolves are gone,but if some sheep want
to run off and do their own thing, that is their choice to regret.

When they had finished eating , Jesus said to Simon Peter , “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these ?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John,
do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”The third
time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me ?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time,
“Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. Very
truly I tell you , when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you
will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” Jesus said
this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
-(John 21:15-19)

 

[Reuben_J]

The reason that Evangelicals feel they do not need to be Catholic is that through the Holy Spirit working through them, many are coming to know Christ who have never known Him before. The Church I have been apart of has always taught that we should take every opportunity to discuss Jesus, we should spread the Gospel to other countries, and help the poor across the world. When one is doing this they fail to see the reason they need to be called, “Catholic.”

This is a little digressing but the part that the Holy Spirit working in them (Protestants/Evangelicals) prompts me to share my experience in collaborating with Protestants in a mutual cause. It was an ‘inter-churches’ kind of thing. It gives us opportunity to work and to get together; in the process these may include worshipping and praying for specific intention in small and big groups. There was sizeable Catholics participation.

We have more that unite than divide us but probably it is the exposure to other Christians of different denominations that is the biggest plus here. Surely it helps to dispel the notion that the others are ‘less Christians’ especially when one see how fervent their faith is.

Prayers and worship are usually part of the gathering with preaching and testimonies often thrown in. However I have not seen Marian prayers being used as this is exclusively Catholic.

What strike me though, at one time it was decided to include communion. It was the climax of the event and the crowd was very big. During the communion service, people are asked to partake. Of course the Catholics did not participate and considering their number, their non-participation was probably noticeable.

We were commenting on this later and thought that what our Protestant brethrens were missing was the Holy Eucharist. I could see how lacking is the reverence in their communion and what we do in the mass would have gone very well with this group of Protestants. Probably the only reason that they do not want to accept the Eucharist would be they have to be called Catholics.

So to comment on the post above, I am sure there are many Protestants who want what the Catholics have but do not want to be called as such. Thus that the very reason for them not becoming Catholics.

 

[ufamtobie]

I was reading through some other posts on here and it got me to thinking: If Protestants do their research and study theology, I think that many of them would come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the true Church. However, many Protestants believe (mistakenly) that Catholics worship Mary.

Do you think that more Protestant Christians would convert to Catholicism if it were not for our veneration of Mary?

If so, what can “we” do in a spirit of evangelism to either educate or correct their misguided notions of our veneration?

Virgin Mary was destined, destined without there being a second choice in the mind of God to be the Mother Of God, but yet, God gave Her the Will to choose to have the Son of God or not.

However, God knows all, God knew the future, He knew this beautiful Creature that He Created with an extraordinary Love / care, with extraordinary Graces, She was cut from higher Sublime Cloth, far surpass any other human creature, that our intellect can not understand in this life, pure, spotless of any sin, Mother of the Son of God, Mother of us all, would say YES! Thus the reason why God had no other in mind, to bare His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, but Virgin Mary. Amen

Now Imagine, if Virgin Mary used Her free will, and said no, where would we be today?

So yes, Virgin Mary is Co-Redemtrix / Mediatrix of all Graces.

(Luke 2: 34,35) And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; 35And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

Who are the many hearts that Virgin Mary had to suffer a piercing sword through Her Own Soul, why did She even have to suffer for us at all, for the many?

We all should on a daily basis, thank Virgin Mary for saying: Luke1: 38And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. Amen

Ufam Tobie

 

[MoreCoffee]

If the pope had never defined the last two Marian dogmas, Protestants would have far less problems with Mary and the CC. By defining them the CC made them a stumbling block. I think that Protestants would even be far more likely to accept the doctrines if they hadn’t been defined.

Yet the protestant revolt and subsequent Catholic reformation predate the formal dogmatic definition of the last two Marian dogmas. How would removing them resolve the issues that the Protestants raised and answer the remedies that the Protestants applied to those issues?

After almost five hundred years a great deal has changed but the old issues still come to the fore because human society has a memory that lasts for millennia. Even when the specific problems that once were major issues between communities of faith have changed the memory of the original issues and the original answers to them is retained and passed on from one generation to the next. The barriers between Catholic & Protestant are historical as well as theological, cultural as well as ethical. They are far wider than the last two Marian dogmas. So, one ought not to expect that leaving out the formal dogmatic definitions of the past couple of centuries will shrink the dividing wall between Catholic & Protestant communities.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

When it comes to the blessed Virgin Mary, Lutherans generally don’t have many issues with Roman Catholics except I have read comments about the blessed Mother that Lutherans would not accept.

Piety to St Mary isn’t much practiced though Lutherans devote 5 holy days to her and many churches are named after Our Lady in Europe.

 

[jimmy]

Yet the protestant revolt and subsequent Catholic reformation predate the formal dogmatic definition of the last two Marian dogmas. How would removing them resolve the issues that the Protestants raised and answer the remedies that the Protestants applied to those issues?

After almost five hundred years a great deal has changed but the old issues still come to the fore because human society has a memory that lasts for millennia. Even when the specific problems that once were major issues between communities of faith have changed the memory of the original issues and the original answers to them is retained and passed on from one generation to the next. The barriers between Catholic & Protestant are historical as well as theological, cultural as well as ethical. They are far wider than the last two Marian dogmas. So, one ought not to expect that leaving out the formal dogmatic definitions of the past couple of centuries will shrink the dividing wall between Catholic & Protestant communities.

The reformation wasn’t about Marian dogmas. Mary wasn’t much of an issue for the reformers. In fact, they thought pretty highly of Mary. The pope created an opposition by uselessly defining new dogmas. The pope created a stumbling block and Protestants fell right over it.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

They would become more catholic if catholicism wasn’t catholic, basically they want a protestant catholicism. The contrast between the methods of any ancient church, ie a set ecclesiology which is not merely based on the faith of the individual but the handing down of authority since the time of the apostles, traditional liturgical practices, emphasis on the sacramental life beyond baptism and the eucharist are too much for some protestants to accept because they reduce Christianity to mere faith, all of these things are viewed as unneccessary typically by evangelicals, much to their own misfortune.

Mary might have something to do with it, but if one cannot call her theotokos because they thing that calling her such is akin to calling her God, there is no reasoning with such people in the first place.

 

[Petaro]

I was reading through some other posts on here and it got me to thinking: If Protestants do their research and study theology, I think that many of them would come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the true Church. However, many Protestants believe (mistakenly) that Catholics worship Mary.

Do you think that more Protestant Christians would convert to Catholicism if it were not for our veneration of Mary?

If so, what can “we” do in a spirit of evangelism to either educate or correct their misguided notions of our veneration?

My immediate thought is that if there was a choice - a church without Mary; or a larger church; then I prefer to follow Jesus’ will in our reverence of His mother as he gave her to John (the Church) as one of his final acts on earth. However I agree that we need to explain our faith to protestants and insist to them that we do not worship anyone but God. I sometimes wonder whether our devotion to Our Lady is a comfort to many protestants as they are able to hide intelligent inquiry behind the old shibboleths of bigotry.
There are some posters that refuse to recognise the love of the Church in its world wide charity and evangelical zeal in its missions across the globe. Some will take refuge in the literal belief in the Bible yet refuse to accept the of the words of Christ in His institution of the Eucharist and his continued insistence on repeating the literal words in spite of many walking no more with him. Any prophet realising that a metaphor was being misunderstood would correct his language. Yet Christ repeated his words.
Many protestants will find the bells and smells offensive and yet join the ritual laden useless ceremonies of the Mormons.
It just shows to me that Faith is a gift and prayer and respectful personal witnessing of that faith that is within us is our only personal answer. Buying up the dying media may also be a practical method to increase evangelization.

 

[GaryTaylor]

First thought is…

catholicexchange.com/why-marian-dogma-matters-so-much/

Second thought is…

“The Church has the right and obligation not merely to guard ethical and religious principles, but also to declare its authoritative judgment in the matter of putting these principles into practice.”

Blessed John XXIII - Mater et Magistra.

We are bound to obey, perhaps St Catherine of Sienna, Dialogue, Treatise of Obedience from here would be of help. What destroys obedience? “Look to the first man…It was pride, the cause which deprived him of the perfection of obedience”

One must learn to follow in humility before one can command. Fulton Sheen

Luke “Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

 

[Cat]

At first, thinking about how the issue of Mary has been quite hard to get around in my own spiritual journey, I would have said yes, more Protestants would become Catholic.

But thinking about it, the answer is in fact no.

Because if all it takes is the veneration and intercession of Mary to drive Protestants away from the Church, then I highly doubt they would have entered the Church anyway.

Because, what convinced me of the truth is the role Tradition plays, and the beliefs of the early Christians. The belief that Jesus founded His Church upon the Rock, Peter, and that this Church would not be prevailed over by the gates of Hell.

The Magisterium and Sacred Tradition are just as fundamental as Sacred Scripture. If a Protestant can see and understand the truth of the Papacy, then I can assure you that Mary will not pose too much of a problem.

When one accepts that Christ established one Church, that would be built on Peter, the rest follows eventually. It might provide difficulty, but certainly not complete dissuasion.

Now, if the dogmas surrounding Mary were something unrooted in Tradition, then you might have a point. But they’re not.

At the end of the day, if a Protestant was ever considering Catholicism, Mary would not be the number one problem, and would not be a main stumbling block. The number one problem, you see, is the authority and infallibility of the Church. Once one gets their head around that, and understands the scriptural backing for it, then the other doctrines are easier to understand.

To conclude, the gift of the Mother of God to the Church far outweighs any impediment that may be caused to Protestants. And to reiterate, while it may cause difficulty, a Protestant who is seriously considering the claims of the Catholic Church will not be dissuaded merely by Mary. I mean, it really is meaningless for someone to say “Oh, I can accept the authority of the Church, and the Papacy, and Tradition, and purgatory, and the Eucharist… But Mary, y’know, that’s just a deal-breaker. I can kind of see why the Church is infallible and all, but Mary just ruins it for me.” Y’see the problem here? Mary is never going to be the deal-breaker. It’ll always be the authority and origins of the Church.

And if Mary wasn’t there, then the question would just be “Would more Protestants become Catholics if it were not for purgatory?” or “confession?” or “infant baptism?” or “papal infallibility?”

If a Protestant could accept those above things, then Mary isn’t going to dissuade them. Cause a lot of confusion, difficulty and strife, sure, but actually prevent them from entering the Church? No way.

Boldface above–My husband and I converted to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism, and without doubt, Church authority is the biggest obstacle. Protestants believe in the Authority and Headship of Jesus Christ, but they believe that He has revealed His Will and plans for humans through the BIBLE, not through an earthly church.

Many Protestants are willing to submit to the authority of an earthly church, but they are always aware that if this church (the people, not the building) starts teaching or acting in a way that seems contrary to the Bible, they are free to leave and find another church without any risk of losing their salvation. This can’t happen in Catholicism.

And in this day and age, many MANY Protestants aren’t even willing to “submit” to the authority of any earthly church. Many Protestants attend a church and get involved with many ministries, but they don’t “join” the church and become members. Some denominations have had to change their constitutions to allow non-members to be involved in the various church ministries, or they wouldn’t have enough members to do the ministries!

Protestants especially have a difficult time with the idea that the Catholic Church has been established as earthly authority by Jesus Christ Himself because they study the history of the Church and learn about all the many flaws and mistakes and sins that various priests and popes have had over the centuries. The recent sex scandal in the Church is the nail in the Catholic coffin for many Protestants–this is really a difficult obstacle to overcome. Yes, there have been plenty of Protestant pastors, both well-known to the public, and completely unknown to the public, who have been caught practicing sexual sins and perversions–but Protestants kick these men and women OUT the door and tell them to never come back!

The concept of an earthly church as “authority” over Christians is entirely and utterly opposed to anything that Protestants (Evangelical Protestants especially) believe. I hope I’m getting across just how bizarre and incomprehensible this teaching is to Evangelical Protestants.

Church authority is the biggest obstacle. Overcome that one, and all the other deposit, doctrines, dogma, disciplines, and devotions, including the Marian doctrines, fall into place.

BTW, my daughter converted to Catholicism (after being raised Evangelical Protestant and graduating from a Calvinist college). She readily and joyously embraces the Marian doctrines, and has a strong devotion to the Blessed Mother. I have seen her weep with love for Mary.

 

[Cat]

Evangelicals are taught to build schools in countries stricken with poverty? Really? That’s news to me. You are aware that Catholics are taught to dedicate their lives to Christ too, right?

Of course, many Catholics don’t, just like many evangelicals don’t.

Well, that’s the big word there isn’t it; ‘show’. You would have to challenge the evangelical to go out to the various Catholic charities throughout Africa, witness their devotion and the miracles that happen within their own communities. Sadly, words can only get us so far. If an evangelical were to live among a monastic order and serve the poor among them, then they may very well discover the unparalleled love and devotion that the Church has to offer, and the true nature of the Church that is so often misrepresented. The Catholic Church is the biggest contributor to charity in the world. I’m not sure what other practical evidence an evangelical would be looking for.

And yes, our Lord can perform great miracles with all those who call upon His Name, but the fullness of this can only be found in the Catholic Church. Another thing would be to challenge the evangelical to investigate the hundreds of miracles that take place in the Church, and the vigorous scientific verification the Church undertakes to make sure miracles are genuine.

Be careful with this line of thought.

Our Christian and Missionary Alliance pastor (RIP) was a missionary in Viet Nam, along with his wife, for 17 years, during the entire duration of the U.S./Viet Nam war. His wife gave birth to their four children in Viet Nam.

They and several other missionaries built and ran a leprosarium, a school, a church, and many other ministries, practical and spiritual, for the 1000s of Montagnards in Viet Nam.

During the time that they were there, they saw thousands of Montagnards become productive and joyful people. This devotion to Christianity continued–during the years after the war when Viet Nam was closed to the world by the Communists, our pastor and his fellow missionaries who survived (many were tortured and killed by the Communists) had no idea if their church had survived. Maybe all the people had returned to pagan practices and idol worship. They didn’t know.

In the 1980s, a communication was received in the United States–the Montagnard church was alive, well, and THRIVING. Our church and several others sponsored several hundred Montagnard families when they moved to the U.S., and these people were devout Christians (Evangelical Protestant). Yes, there was also a group of Catholic Montagnards, and they were sponsored by a Catholic parish. So Christianity in general survived in Viet Nam, even during the worst of time.

Our pastor talked about how the Catholics hindered their efforts and made it difficult for them to work with the Montagnards. He did NOT have good words to say about the Catholics in Viet Nam.

I’ve heard other Protestant missionaries say the same thing about Catholics in other countries.

I don’t know exactly what the Catholics did to our pastor and the other missionaries to hinder their work. It’s been decades.

All I’m saying is that many Protestants who have been missionaries might disagree with you about the “love and devotion” of Catholics, and Catholics here in the states need to be prepared with an answer when they meet up with former missionaries like my pastor. It’s a tough obstacle, and we had best be ready for it. I honestly never knew what to say to my pastor (who has since passed away–God rest his soul).

 

[JRKH]

Cat and Sultan have nailed it.

Regardless of what specific doctrines, dogmas, practices one mentions as being a stumbling block to entering the Church, it all will eventually come down to the question of authority.

Being raised Catholic it was really the Eucharist (among other things) that eventually brought me home. However, in learning more about my faith and listening to conversion stories this common thread of authority kept coming up so I began “testing” this in discussion with protestants here at CAF and also on another Christian board.

The more I tugged at the idea to see if it held up the more biblical I found the Catholic Church (and EO) model to be. Protestants who held to the more “invisible church” and “locally independent”, “Sola Scriptura” church model simply had nothing to point to in Scripture to support their that was as clear and compelling as the those that pointed toward unity and authority.

The really interesting thing is that, even if they became convinced of the Scriptural evidence for unity, they became stuck…they recognized that there is no realistic chance for the protestant churches to come together and resolve their doctrinal differences…and yet they cannot bring themselves to accept the idea that the Catholic Church has been right all along.
They find themselves in a catch 22.

At least - this has been my experience

Peace
James