Would pro-choicers favor abortion of 2-year olds?

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It is a sad reality that “debate” is evoked on a “Catholic” forum, among Catholics, I agree, and not only concerning this issue but an increasing number of issues, it seems. This one - direct intentional abortion under any circumstances - is an especially horrific crime against God, against life, against humanity - and most certainly against the little innocent child in the womb.

The fact that “CATHOLICS” of national reputation - politicians - justify abortion, defend it, defend subsidizing it with public funds, blasphemously call it “holy ground”!!! - and do so free of public censure and consequence from their bishops or ordinaries - is a scandal, an insult to God and to His faithful people. How this scandal continues to this day shocks and grieves me to the core.
 
Anrakyr said:
Complicated isn’t it? Try to avoid calling dad next time if you please.
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The rules are the rules. If you want to use this forum, you need to follow them. If you don’t like them, there are other forums out there.
 
Bushum said:
What a sad reality that I even have to debate this on a Catholic forum :cry:
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Dude, she agrees with you. She’s pro-life. She’s saying that phrasing things that way may not be the best way to reach people and persuade them. It’s a question of tactics. We all agree on the ultimate goal.

It’s the same reason that when the Church engages in ecumenical dialogue with other religions, it doesn’t simply shout “HEATHEN! HERETIC! SCHISMATIC!” even if those are technically accurate descriptions. If your goal is to persuade people to come over to your side, sometimes you have be tactful in how you present your position.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Of course they wouldn’t advocate for it. Bambi Factor would kick in. Too cute to abort.

Their whole pro-choice argument is based on “it’s just a clump of cells”. The more it looks like an actual baby, the squickier most people will become.
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of course if it’s still on the womb they won’t see how cute it is and will still be saying “just a clump of cells”.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Calling people “pro-baby-murder” when they have a genuine question about rights and other people’s beliefs/ choices does not help your cause. it just makes you sound weird and extreme.
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Thank you for stating this. This is a complex issue for many.
 
@Bushum

The issue is that you’re not going to get anywhere by over-simplifying and calling all pro-choice people “baby murderers.” There are a range of views for pro-choicers as well as circumstances that cause one to adopt the pro-choice belief. This hardly means each and every pro-choice person has evil motives.

For example, some may agree with Catholic teaching, and think abortion in every instance is intrinsically wrong. And yet, they may still have difficulty wanting to make abortion illegal, or wanting to criminalize it in every situation, because the fact is — life is complicated. And choosing which sins we want to criminalize can be a hard, complex process. Just ask St. Thomas Aquinas concerning prostitution, for example.

So yes, there are many well-meaning folk who would call themselves “pro-choice” who are actually a lot closer to the Catholic perspective than you may think.
 
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The problem with their argument here is that we are ALL just a collection of cells so why not abortion after birth either? In reality they try to justify this by trying to define human value on how fully formed it is. I’ve seen many people claim that it would be better if deformed babies didn’t survive claiming what sort of life would they have or that they are even too much of a hindrance to the parents.
 
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Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board. Catholics must be respectful of the legitimate religious preferences and practices of their fellow Catholics."
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Saying Catholics kill babies by not fighting poverty is neither respectful to Catholicism and is incendiary and divisive. Not to mention a lie.
 
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RealisticCatholic said:
@Bushum

The issue is that you’re not going to get anywhere by over-simplifying and calling all pro-choice people “baby murderers.” There are a range of views for pro-choicers as well as circumstances that cause one to adopt the pro-choice belief. This hardly means each and every pro-choice person has evil motives.

For example, some may agree with Catholic teaching, and think abortion in every instance is intrinsically wrong. And yet, they may still have difficulty wanting to make abortion illegal, or wanting to criminalize it in every situation, because the fact is — life is complicated. And choosing which sins we want to criminalize can be a hard, complex process. Just ask St. Thomas Aquinas concerning prostitution, for example.

So yes, there are many well-meaning folk who would call themselves “pro-choice” who are actually a lot closer to the Catholic perspective than you may think.
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There are those on the wrong side of this issue who are good people but sadly (and sinfully) misinformed on this issue , also those who are naturally “pro choice” as pure libertarians and then on the fringe extreme there are abortion rights supremacists who physically or otherwise assault pro lifers, etc. I wouldn’t put them all in the same category.

We Catholics know that the root cause of people seeking abortion must be addressed and that would do a much better job stopping abortion than a law by itself would. Abortion is a symptom of society’s failure to help desperate women in need. Close the gap and abortion becomes redundant.
 
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Fauken said:
Saying Catholics kill babies by not fighting poverty is neither respectful to Catholicism and is incendiary and divisive. Not to mention a lie.
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Well I’m trying to grab your attention.

Look at it this way;

I’m prolife but watching Catholics stop abortion is like trying to weed a garden with a scyth. You leave the roots.

Outlawing it doesn’t stop the source. Poverty is the weed. Education is the answer. Solving poverty is the solution.

So when people complain about a leaky roof and plant a tree in the hopes someday it may shield the house it’s infuriating.
 
All true in my view, except in cases of rape, incest, and when the unborn baby is so genetically deformed that s/he will not survive after birth or be in constant pain (some disagreement among rabbis in all these cases). Also, in rare cases when there are two babies involved and the one who is ill is depriving the life and birth of the healthy baby (according to Jewish law). And if the mother’s life is in imminent danger, also rare, it is Jewish law that abortion is not only permitted but required including the time period up to actual birth (according to Orthodox Jews). Otherwise, I agree with you!
 
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I mean I don’t think most pro-choice people advocate for abortions now, so they wouldn’t any more in your hypothetical. Now would they advocate for protecting a woman’s right to abort in this hypothetical, almost certainly. Given that giving birth to a 2 year old would be that much more of an imposition on a woman’s body, costs of caring would be increased almost immediately, etc…
 
Anrakyr said:
Well I’m trying to grab your attention.
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By insulting a Catholic audience on a Catholic forum? By slandering us and saying Catholics don’t care for the poor? You want to make a point about poverty and abortion, fine, but don’t lie to do so.
 
I’ve spoken with people who think the only thing morally wrong with euthanizing a two year old is the suffering the parents and others would have agonizing over it, but who say that otherwise there’s nothing wrong with it. I’ve actually seen people argue that up to the age of reason (6 or 7).
 
RealisticCatholic said:
Sorry if the title is weird. I had to get the gist across in a short space.

What I mean is this: Just pretend that human development was set up in such a way that women didn’t give birth until their baby was 2 years old (instead of 9 months).

That is, in this hypothetical world, the 2 year old in the womb would look much like the 2 year old actually does, outside the womb, in our current biological reality.

Would a pro-choicer still advocate for abortion of a 2 year old in the womb? Why or why not?
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First of all, nobody that I know of advocates abortion. They advocate keeping abortion legal.

If the two year old is just like today’s two year old, it can easily survive by itself outside the mother’s womb. There would be no need to abort it. It could just be delivered and the woman would not longer have to carry it.

Actually this whole debate will be resolved when medical technology advances far enough so that the fetus together with the placenta can be transplanted from one person to another. That way, some woman who wants to end her pregnancy can just ask that it be transplanted to a pro-choice woman who will be more than happy to carry it. If it can be transplanted into a pro-choice man then that would make it even easier - then everyone will be happy.

Another way it could be resolved is when the Christ Returns. He would tell us exactly what the solution to the problem is.
 
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