Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

[Fergal]

Dear New Heart you said: "There is nothing in the Bible that says God changed his mind on graven images."

I am very suprised at your transparent lack of knowledge

1. 
   *]Shall not make graven images
   1. 
      *](Exodus 20:4-5) - “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.”
      *](Leviticus 26:1) - “You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God.”
      *](Deuteronomy 5:8) - “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.”
      *](Deuteronomy 27:15) - *"*Cursed is the man who makes an idol or a molten image, an abomination to the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’"
      
      *]Shall make graven images
      
      1. 
         ](Exodus 25:18) - “And you shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat.” *
         ](Exodus 37:7-8) - “And he made two cherubim of gold; he made them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat; 8one cherub at the one end, and one cherub at the other end; he made the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at the two ends.” See also, Exodus 26:1,31; 36:8; 1 Kings 6:23-35.* etc

 

[Church_Militant]

IV. p://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm#I

Why does the Catholic church presume to change the Word of God? There is nothing in the Bible that says God changed his mind on graven images.
Exodus 20:4-5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Matthew 4:9-10 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 22:37-40** Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.**
Romans 1 is another good example.
Romans 1:20-23 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
So there is no change of mind. Graven images are an abomination to God and always have been.

Okay newheart…you think you know so much…explain to me the direct COMMAND of God to Moses to make a graven image when he was told to make the serpent of bronze and put it up on the pole so that the people of Israel could look up at it and be healed?
Before you open your mouth about it remember that this very thing is cited by the NT writers as a type of Christ being lifted up for our salvation.

Also…read the description of the very things that God commands the Jews to adorn the top of the Ark of the Covenant…statues of Cherubim. Gee is God inconsistent here? NOPE! not at all.

The command is against WORSHIPPING such an image. Are you alleging that we are too stupid to tell the difference between a statue of an angel or anything else and Almighty God? NO Catholic would ever do that!

HOWEVER! YOUR allegation dates back to the 8th century when an evil king who was influenced BY ISLAM (as in Taliban!) decided to persecute the church with his iconoclastic views. Are you also Islamic? His whole attack is based on the wisdom of MAN… You better go back to your Bible studies and widen your knowlege of both scripture and history before you decide to mess with the Church that Christ Himself founded and that has been faithful to Him for over 2,000 years.

I sooo hate hit and run attack posters

 

[dumspirospero]

Thanks for picking up my slack while I was away watching Peyton Manning and the Colts kick butt today I could not have said it any better…We must live the beatitudes in our daily life…otherwise, Faith will not save us by itself.
Church Militant:

So…let the hungry starve, let the thirsty perish of thirst, let the naked die of exposure, let the homeless remain so, let those sick and in prison remain alone and without a visiting friend… Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Gratias_Grace]

av1611:

I use to be a Catholic, it quite clearly states that, through your good works you obtain salvation, through sacrments like salvation, confesssion etc. Yet the Bible says

"For by grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast

:ehh: Ahhhhhhhh, ahhhhhhhhhh … av1611!

Somone must have fooled you about the Catholic Church’s teaching.

Catholics believe that it is by GRACE we are saved:

"1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature." (CCC1996-1998)

av1611, let me try to explain to you your misperseptions of the Catholic Church. You said: "it quite clearly states that, through your good works you obtain salvation, through sacrments like salvation, confesssion etc. Yet the Bible says"

The Scriptures in the Bible are collected by the Catholic Church led by the Holy Spirit!

We don’t obtain salvation through good works and/or confession. But God can use people and situations **to help us ** to get more and more Holy (even if the prosess is very slow). When we go to confession (honestly with sorrow for sins) by the grace of God we are reconciled with HIM and His Church. If we do good works trying to fool God, it is of no good.

Good works shows that we love God. Good works are the will of God. LOVE is the key that make good works an act that God can use for our salvation!

“Faith alone” = no salvation.
“Bible alone” = no salvation.
“Work alone” = no salvation.

"The Lord Jesus Christ, physician of our souls and bodies, who forgave the sins of the paralytic and restored him to bodily health,3 has willed that his Church continue, in the power of the Holy Spirit, his work of healing and salvation, even among her own members. This is the purpose of the two sacraments of healing: the sacrament of Penance and the sacrament of Anointing of the Sick". (CCC 1421)

You will find the biblical basis :bible1: for CCC 1421 here: When he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home. 2So many gathered around that there was no longer room for them, not even in front of the door; and he was speaking the word to them. 3Then some people came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4And when they could not bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and after having dug through it, they let down the mat on which the paralytic lay. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’ 6Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7‘Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’ 8At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, ‘Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? 9Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, “Your sins are forgiven,” or to say, “Stand up and take your mat and walk”? 10But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins’ —he said to the paralytic— 11‘I say to you, stand up, take your mat and go to your home.’ 12And he stood up, and immediately took the mat and went out before all of them; so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, ‘We have never seen anything like this!’ (Mk 2-1-12).

I strongly reccomand : “Lord have Mercy” by Schott Hahn. It’s time to take back your faith, av1611.

Blessings!

G.Grace

 

[Church_Militant]

dumspirospero:

Thanks for picking up my slack while I was away watching Peyton Manning and the Colts kick butt today I could not have said it any better…We must live the beatitudes in our daily life…otherwise, Faith will not save us by itself.

No Prob! Deo Gratias!
Thanks, I just don’t care for ignorance and aggression like that.
I know that they almost never dare to read any really Catholic books or articles for fear of tainting their religion. It’s cowardice. I read anything I’m handed…

They’d flat out DIE rather than read Surprised By Truth or any of the sequels. God love’em.

 

[Fergal]

Dear New Heart, I have a few questions for you. Since you are the real thing with your Sola Scriptura approach try these for size.

GENESIS

1 & 2, Don’t Gen. 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts?
1:26, How many Gods are there, one or many?
3:9, Doesn’t “Adam where are you?” show God didn’t know something?
3:16, God multiplies the pain of women in child bearing.
3:22, How many Gods are there, one or many?
4:17, Where did Cain get his wife?
5:1-31, Did people really live hundreds of years according to Genesis?
5:24, Did anyone ascend into heaven before Jesus or not?
6:6,7, Does the Lord change or not?
6:19-20, How many kinds did Noah bring into the ark, two or seven?
7:1, Have all people sinned or not?
7:2-3, How many kinds did Noah bring into the ark, two or seven?
11:8-9, God is not the author of confusion, and the Tower of Babel.
17:1, Has anyone seen God or not?
18:1, Has anyone seen God or not?
19:8, Why did Lot give his daughters to the crowd of men?
22:1, Does God tempt people or not?
22:2, How many children did Abraham have, one or two?
37:28, Who sold Joseph, the Midianites or the Ishmaelites?
37:36, Who sold Joseph, the Midianites or the Ishmaelites?
38:9, God kills a man for spilling his seed on the ground.
39:1, Who sold Joseph, the Midianites or the Ishmaelites?
47:31, Was Joseph at the head of the bed or leaning on a staff?

EXODUS
6:2-3, Has anyone seen God or not?
9:1-7, Did all of Egypt’s livestock die or not?
9:18-21, Did all of Egypt’s livestock die or not?
15:3, Is the Lord a God of Peace or of war?
20:4-5, Should you make graven images or not?
20:5, Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
20:8, Should we keep the Sabbath or not?
20:24, Did God speak about sacrifices or not at the Exodus?
21:20-21, A slave is property
23:12, Should we keep the Sabbath or not?
24:9-11, Has anyone seen God or not?
25:18, Should you make graven images or not?
31:15, Should we keep the Sabbath or not?
32:14, Does the Lord change or not?
33:20, Has anyone seen God or not?
34:6-7, Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
37:7-8, Should you make graven images or not?

LEVITICUS
11:13-19, Is a bat a bird?
25:44, You may buy slaves
26:1, Should you make graven images or not?
26:2, Should we keep the Sabbath or not?

NUMBERS
12:6-8, Has anyone seen God or not?
15:32, Man killed for gather sticks on the Sabbath.
31:17-18, Only the virgins left alive among the Midianites

DEUTERONOMY
2:32-33, Israelites destroyed city and killed all inside
5:8, Should you make graven images or not?
5:9, Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
5:12, Should we keep the Sabbath or not?
6:4, How many Gods are there, one or many?
17:1, Don’t sacrifice an animal with a blemish
24:16, Do the sons bear the sins of the fathers or not?
27:15, Should you make graven images or not?

Think about the above. I do not want you to translate for me. I already have one translator. That is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. That is all I need.

The Church has the keys. Problem is they don’t fit your lock.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

All Catholics who answered the posters so well my hat is off to you Now, just where, did they go?I hear crickets chirping A couple more unfounded arguments dead in the water God Bless,Lisa

 

[martino]

AV1611, you would be much better off if you actually learned the Catholic teaching on faith and works before you come onto a Catholic website and make a fool out of yourself. You would also do well to read the entire Bible rather than bits and pieces of it!

 

[vern_humphrey]

av1611:

So you admitted your a sinner, so you are going to hell right? (By your own admission, you said you were a sinner)

So you deny that you’re a sinner? You claim that it’s impossible for you to sin?

You really ARE going to hell!!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[RobedWithLight]

av1611:

So you admitted your a sinner, so you are going to hell right? (By your own admission, you said you were a sinner)

Is not admitting one’s guilt an expression of Christian humility, and our admission of our own dependence upon the mercy of an infinite God? Are we not all children of wrath?

Or perhaps you are telling as that you are a sinless being, like Jesus Himself.

Gerry

 

[SweetPea]

It doesn’t matter what I consider; it’s God opinion that counts.

 

[sweetchuck]

av1611:

So you admitted your a sinner, so you are going to hell right? (By your own admission, you said you were a sinner)

Have you read the Bible?

Luke 18: 10-14
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity - greedy, dishonest, adulterous - or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

and yet you think we should say that we’re not sinners? Your very argument ignores the words of Christ. And you clearly don’t understand the Catholic position on faith/works. I shall pray hard for you to find understanding, but I shall pray especially hard for whomever has deceived you.

 

[sweetchuck]

New Heart:

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is the work that counts.

Not according to the words of Jesus.

Strange that you would ignore the rest of that particular chapter of John. Quite puzzling.

“I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.”
“I am the bread that came down from heaven”
“I am the bread of life.”
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

Seems like you may have missed the major message in John 6. The message is twofold: Faith; and eat & drink. Eating and drinking sounds quite a bit like an action, especially when you consider that the original meaning for the word for “eats” in this verse means “to chew” or “to gnaw.” Faith & action. Faith & works.

Do you find yourselves among the murmerers in John 6:60?
"Then many of his disciples who were listening said, ‘This saying is hard; who can accept it?’ "
Are you sure you do not find yourselves among those in John 6:66?
“As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”

 

[New_Heart]

Lisa4Catholics:

All Catholics who answered the posters so well my hat is off to you Now, just where, did they go?I hear crickets chirping A couple more unfounded arguments dead in the water God Bless,Lisa

Don’t laugh too loud.:tsktsk: Do you not know that conceit is the height of ignorance?

Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 ** Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,** how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I must let you know that one of the cross references for the part in red is John 6, before Christ instituted the memorial of His death.

 

[TTM]

Catholics believe in works to get you to heaven

Wow. I’ve actually witnessed someone believing, and spreading, this lie .

We have our work cut out for us, no?

God bless,
TTM

 

[New_Heart]

TTM:

Wow. I’ve actually witnessed someone believing, and spreading, this lie .
We have our work cut out for us, no?
God bless, TTM

Which RCC lie are you referring to?
The one about works or the one about actually committing cannibalism which Jesus never taught? Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I would say here that Jesus shed His blood as a ransom for many. Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. It is shed, you can’t EAT shed blood!
Mt 20:28; Lu 22:26-27; Joh 13:14; Php 2:5-8; Heb 5:8; Isa 53:10-12; Da 9:24,26; 2Co 5:21; Ga 3:13; 1Ti 3:4-6; Tit 2:14; 1Pe 1:19

 

[Church_Militant]

New Heart:

Which RCC lie are you referring to?
The one about works or the one about actually committing cannibalism which Jesus never taught? Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I would say here that Jesus shed His blood as a ransom for many. Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. It is shed, you can’t EAT shed blood!
Mt 20:28; Lu 22:26-27; Joh 13:14; Php 2:5-8; Heb 5:8; Isa 53:10-12; Da 9:24,26; 2Co 5:21; Ga 3:13; 1Ti 3:4-6; Tit 2:14; 1Pe 1:19

Hey Newheart, check your PM…
and as usual you are outta whack again…
You say you were a nun…better go check out the post on the Catholicism is Christian thread.

 

[TTM]

Hi,
New Heart:

Which RCC lie are you referring to?

Thank you for conviniently rephrasing what I said . The “RCC lie” I was refering to is the “lie” spread by our Protestant brothers (although unwittingly), that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by works. I call it a “lie”, because I believe that people such as Jack Chick are knowingly spreading falsehoood.

I think sincere seekers will find, as demonstrated by some posters here, that the Church teaches salvation by grace, but that it requires good works as response (since lack of good works shows lack of real faith).

The one about works or the one about actually committing cannibalism which Jesus never taught?

The former, since the passage I quoted was related to this.

 

[TTM]

New Heart:

…or the one about actually committing cannibalism which Jesus never taught? Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I would say here that Jesus shed His blood as a ransom for many. Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. It is shed, you can’t EAT shed blood!
Mt 20:28; Lu 22:26-27; Joh 13:14; Php 2:5-8; Heb 5:8; Isa 53:10-12; Da 9:24,26; 2Co 5:21; Ga 3:13; 1Ti 3:4-6; Tit 2:14; 1Pe 1:19

It is exactly as you say (or more accurately, as Hebrews 9:22 says); there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. But how does this forgiveness take place? By applying the blood to those who accept it. How does Christ do this? By incorporating us into His Body, the Church.

By the way, it is not cannibalism, since physically, it is bread and wine. It is only sacramentally Christ’s Body and Blood, which means that there is no longer any bread or wine left, but that as soon as the physical breaks down, the sacramental dissipates. That’s my understanding, at least.

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of our Lord, since the passages in John 6 could not have been figurative, which would have been interpreted as “to do grievious bodily harm”. Take Micah 3:3 as an example: “who eat my people’s flesh, strip off their skin and break their bones in pieces; who chop them up like meat for the pan, like flesh for the pot?”.

By partaking in the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ, we are drawn closer to him and be ever more united to the Body of Christ, which is the Church. We are, as they say, what we eat.

G’night (zzz) and God bless!
TTM

 

[Fergal]

Good friends please remember the words of St. Paul in 2nd Timothy:

“They will be treacherous, reckless, pompous, lovers of pleasure rather than of God as they make a pretense of religion but negate its power. Stay clear of them. It is such as these who worm their way into homes … always learning but never able to reach a knowledge of the truth” (2 Timothy 3:4-7 NAB).

Go easy on them! Sometimes people just can’t handle the truth!